Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread - MY ANACONDA DON'T WANT NONE

[Anthony Hopkins]

The PS5 is not gonna be affected by the Lockart and they are not gonna change their plan because of it, if they are going for the 499€ they are not gonna change to 399 just because of the lockart. Your business point is also wrong, because the lockart will not affect the ps5 sales.

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Lol you just say "you're wrong" without giving any reasons or explanations why.

But I will give some more reasons why lockhart will effect a $499 PS5, people wanting a next gen console to play the latest elder Scrolls or call of duty but with limited funds will choose the lockhart over the ps5 because of price in some circumstances.

 

[Yearsoflurking]

I wonder what xox users will think when lockhart with gpu with less tf's will have nextgen games and xox won't.

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Nothing like any other gen

 

[loicperrin31]

Of course it will.. They'll all affect eachothers sales because they're competitors.

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Lockhart is a competitor to PS5 not an Anaconda? Funny.

 

[Deleted member 12635]

https://www.imgtec.com/powervr-ray-...g&hootPostID=0318b67c9e0e511dea25f13083b17c75

Imagination/PowerR was the first to launch GPU hybrid rasterizing/raytracing they have tons of patent and it seems they have more step acceleration than RTX and now they license their technology.


http://cdn2.imgtec.com/whitepapers/powervr/ray-tracing/powervr-shining-a-light-on-ray-tracing.pdf

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Thx for sharing this. Quite interesting to see the differences in the pipelines.

 

[MaxxxPower]

The fun of last gen relived, console wars, arthur gies with bad info

joking aside, does anyone know how we got to 2 names on the dev kit for scarlett?
i think klobrille "2 sku slide" and hmqgg possibly mentioned "Dante" but team thurott has "Danta", though I could be mis-remembering

 

[Thorrgal]

The fun of last gen relived, console wars, arthur gies with bad info

joking aside, does anyone know how we got to 2 names on the dev kit for scarlett?
i think klobrille "2 sku slide" and hmqgg possibly mentioned "Dante" but team thurott has "Danta", though I could be mis-remembering

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He said Danta but gotta be Dante, for Dante Alighieri (the original Dante after who all Dantes used to be named for :P)

 

[Bradbatross]

Lockhart is a competitor to PS5 not an Anaconda? Funny.

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Huh? Lockhart will be competing with PS5 and Anaconda.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

No, it won't and that is not what the user sugest.

The user sugest that Sony needs to go for 399 because of the lockart and that is not true because like i said, the lockhart will not affect the ps5 sales if one is 299 and the other 499.

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$399 + more powerful is more attractive to the budget next gen gamer, then $499 + even more powerful, compared to a $299 lockhart.

In UK there's a big difference between £249 + £449

 

[formasymphonic]

I'm watching a GDC vid on procedural IK animations from one of the technical art directors from Ubisoft, and about half way through it he's talking about using ray casing ahead of a character for them to read terrain and adjust their animations accordingly.



Its pretty good video overall, but the brief mentions of ray casting caught my interest. The basic idea is that a lot of gameplay animations are designed around an integer state (eg standing, crouching, prone) and can't account for anything in between that [23:44 onwards]. So conversely level design is affected, ceilings have to be a certain height, doors have to be a certain width etc and the times when you see something other than that are probably just mocapped animation transitions.

It would be really interested to see if any of this supposed RT hardware gets applied to things other than obvious applications like graphics / audio. Hypothetically then whatever general compute RT support both consoles have could be functional rather than visual, while dedicated hardware RT could provide support for visuals / audio as well?

 

[androvsky]

The fun of last gen relived, console wars, arthur gies with bad info

joking aside, does anyone know how we got to 2 names on the dev kit for scarlett?
i think klobrille "2 sku slide" and hmqgg possibly mentioned "Dante" but team thurott has "Danta", though I could be mis-remembering

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Reading this like I do political news stories, Arthur Gies is definitely the "one very reliable source" and nobody's running his rumor.

 

[DukeBlueBall]

The fun of last gen relived, console wars, arthur gies with bad info

joking aside, does anyone know how we got to 2 names on the dev kit for scarlett?
i think klobrille "2 sku slide" and hmqgg possibly mentioned "Dante" but team thurott has "Danta", though I could be mis-remembering

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Was two weeks, but this was before the PS5 4chan / reddit leaks explosion.

 

[Bloodcore]

I had missed that info, but, well, in that case, 12 GB of GDDR6 (or half Anaconda ram) for Lockhart would be definitly bad for next gen multiplat games. They'll always be restrained by limited memory, until the end of the gen, like Jaguar CPUs was the constant bottleneck of this generation.

Lockhart would then also be the limiting factor of MS own first party games. They'd always design their big games (Halo, Forza) with that memory limitation: 9GB for games (using 12 GB case), not more.

And ironically, in that hypothetical scenario, Lockhart would mean Sony first party games would shine even more comparatively. More so than during the PS4 gen.

But I can't believe MS would do that mistake (Lockhart having half the memory of Anaconda) for next gen, for their own sake.

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If we are lucky, they'll be using a 14nm I/O die. It would allow them to have 12GB GDDR6 and 4GB DDR4 if they wanted.
Adding a DDR4 controller to the 14nm I/O die probably wouldn't raise the cost by too much.

 

[Wandu]

Can you imagine if it's NVRAM/3D XPoint 😳? It's my biggest hope (dream) lol. I think I've read that it's not that much more expensive than regular SSDs per GB..

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That would be amazing. No hints to a manufacturer or speeds. Gonna be exciting to see what the storage solution is and what it is capable of!

 

[Gamer17]

One random question. Can MS have weaker gpu and yet still better looking games ,higher resultion ,etc ...?

 

[disco_potato]

$399 + more powerful is more attractive to the budget next gen gamer, then $499 + even more powerful, compared to a $299 lockhart.

In UK there's a big difference between £249 + £449

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I don't know many budget gamers that are also early adopters. They'll be probably sitting on their ps4/xbx playing the same shared-gen titles we'll be playing on newer hardware. They know the great stuff isn't coming til 2-3 years into the life of the console.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

It's going to be very interesting to see digital foundry of lockhart, PS5 and Anaconda comparisons.

People like to make 1080p out to be PS1 graphics. But I just finished gears 4 and I chose to run it at 1080p 60fps and it still looked fantastic on my 50 inch 4ktv.

The x1s/ps4 + pro/1x installbase split, show the majority of people are perfectly happy with 1080p.

 

[Hey Please]

The fun of last gen relived, console wars, arthur gies with bad info

joking aside, does anyone know how we got to 2 names on the dev kit for scarlett?
i think klobrille "2 sku slide" and hmqgg possibly mentioned "Dante" but team thurott has "Danta", though I could be mis-remembering

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*barf*

 

[Deleted member 49804]

I wonder what xox users will think when lockhart with gpu with less tf's will have nextgen games and xox won't.

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Nothing, because that won't happen.

 

[Bradbatross]

I don't know many budget gamers that are also early adopters. They'll be probably sitting on their ps4/xbx playing the same shared-gen titles we'll be playing on newer hardware. They know the great stuff isn't coming til 2-3 years into the life of the console.

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I don't think budget gamers are waiting for the 'great' next gen games to upgrade to a next gen console, I think they're waiting for the price to come down.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

I don't know many budget gamers that are also early adopters. They'll be probably sitting on their ps4/xbx playing the same shared-gen titles we'll be playing on newer hardware. They know the great stuff isn't coming til 2-3 years into the life of the console.

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It does not matter if they are early adopters or not.
I'm talking about people who want to play next gen games but not have to pay as much, to do so.

 

[formasymphonic]

I don't know many budget gamers that are also early adopters. They'll be probably sitting on their ps4/xbx playing the same shared-gen titles we'll be playing on newer hardware. They know the great stuff isn't coming til 2-3 years into the life of the console.

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Indeed. The portion of the market that boosts Fifa / Call of Duty / 2K / GTA / Fortnite etc etc aren't going to move over immediately anyway, and the makes of those types of games might end up being cross gen for a while to come. Only exception might be GTA, but we'll see.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

Indeed. The portion of the market that boosts Fifa / Call of Duty / 2K / GTA / Fortnite etc etc aren't going to move over immediately anyway, and the makes of those types of games might end up being cross gen for a while to come. Only exception might be GTA, but we'll see.

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But when the latest games are not coming to current gen anymore there's still going to be people who want to pay less.

 

[Fafalada]

Hypothetically then whatever general compute RT support both consoles have could be functional rather than visual, while dedicated hardware RT could provide support for visuals / audio as well?

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Depending on what exactly is hw-accelerated there could be any number of non-graphics related uses for these, and on a platform where every device comes equipped with it, it's actually practical to use it - unlike what we have available right now.

That said - do note that doing a bunch of ray-casting when it comes to character movement and interaction has been standard practice for decades - this isn't exactly unexplored space.

 

[anexanhume]

The fun of last gen relived, console wars, arthur gies with bad info

joking aside, does anyone know how we got to 2 names on the dev kit for scarlett?
i think klobrille "2 sku slide" and hmqgg possibly mentioned "Dante" but team thurott has "Danta", though I could be mis-remembering

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I don't get the gotcha here. He's speculating based on historical precedent. We're all guilty of that and most of us would have guessed specs would have leaked by now with some sort of insider confirmation.

 

[formasymphonic]

But when the latest games are not coming to current gen anymore there's still going to be people who want to pay less.

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How many years will that be?
How many games will be out by then that could encourage them to pick one console or another?
How many games will they have acquired on an existing platform that could encourage them to stay or switch to a different platform?
What will the prices be for the consoles at that time?


We don't know they answers for any of those yet and all of those will play a factor.

Depending on what exactly is hw-accelerated there could be any number of non-graphics related uses for these, and on a platform where every device comes equipped with it, it's actually practical to use it - unlike what we have available right now.

That said - do note that doing a bunch of ray-casting when it comes to character movement and interaction has been standard practice for decades - this isn't exactly unexplored space.

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All true. His talk is over 3 years old and is based on work he's already implemented into games that exist that he couldn't talk about at the time — I'd still like to see what future hardware could do for it though, maybe we could get it happening for more characters simultaneously or with more intricate animations or combined with more interesting AI etc etc and all at less penalty to hardware. I guess I'm just excited at the myriad of ways new hardware standards can improve what we get.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Nothing, because that won't happen.

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We don't belive in rumors?:)

 

[TheTruthofKayle]

The PS5 is not gonna be affected by the Lockart and they are not gonna change their plan because of it, if they are going for the 499€ they are not gonna change to 399 just because of the lockart. Your business point is also wrong, because the lockart will not affect the ps5 sales.

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if there's 150 or more Euro difference ..it will absolutely affect sales ..of both higher priced sku Anaconda and Ps5
Remember that those console will play mostly the same games and with mostly I mean. 90+ %
Why it shouldn't?

 

[TheTruthofKayle]

One random question. Can MS have weaker gpu and yet still better looking games ,higher resultion ,etc ...?

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It possibly could if Sony first party would be not good and Ms lot better than them...but this is not the case ...at all. On first party side Ms have everything to proof

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

How many years will that be?
How many games will be out by then that could encourage them to pick one console or another?
How many games will they have acquired on an existing platform that could encourage them to stay or switch to a different platform?
What will the prices be for the consoles at that time?


We don't know they answers for any of those yet and all of those will play a factor.

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there will always be gamers who want to spend less.

I don't see why the dev transition will be any different to this gen. So we will be seeing next gen only games in 2021

 

[Gamer17]

It possibly could if Sony first party would be not good and Ms lot better than them...but this is not the case ...at all. On first party side Ms have everything to proof

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No I m not talking about exclusives .let's say next COD , if next Xbox would have weaker gpu could it have better looking version or higher resolution of that game due to customization ??

 

[formasymphonic]

Well again as far as the rumours are going it seems there will be custom solutions from one or either company but it depends how much this "secret sauce" will cost each of them. As for development capabilities I don't think it would do much. Devs for a start would have to target the lowest common denominator which is going to be PC gamers who will still be using conventional HDD or slower SSD than "secret sauce" SSD tech, and they aren't going to make a game which won't run well on this hardware because it's designed for some super-fast custom console hardware. Secondly, if last gen and this gen are anything to go by most devs won't give a jack about this special sauce. Just look at the CELL where devs never bothered to spend time optimizing for it or the half floats in the PRO as another example. We have no guarantees devs will suddenly spend time optimizing for this hardware when history has shown they never did so before.

Microsoft sacrificed CU count in the X1 because of the "secret sauce" ESRAM which turned out to be meaningless. I'm not saying this tech will take up die space but it could effect the BOM.

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It's going to be interesting to see what a high base level for next-gen consoles does for PC requirements. PC's will of course always have the higher ceiling but the median & base requirements will definitely have to rise in time. During the cross-gen portion of the era, yes you are right that they will still have to make allowances for lower spec hardware. But thats no different from what we see every gen any way. its only really about 2-3 years in that we start seeing what new hardware can really do and get pushed beyond what existing hardware is capable of.

However first & second parties will be able to push the boundaries much earlier / much further than third parties will. We shouldn't write them off just yet.

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Thinking a bit more about this, aren't MS' first party games supposedly going to PC as well? That could put them in the same situation 3rd party developers who make for console / PC find themselves in and needing to account for HDDs etc. Its actually possible that the only studios we could see truly pushing the boundaries of what you can do with fast storage could be Sony's first party. Alternatively, MS launches their games that go to PC with high min-spec requirements and maybe it accelerates changes in what the average PC spec looks like.

 

[Deleted member 49804]

We don't belive in rumors?:)

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Just to clarify. I talk about Lockhart having next gen games, but Xbox One X won't.
Not about the rumors of Lockhart having less TF than Xbox One.

 

[HighspeedRefleX]

The fun of last gen relived, console wars, arthur gies with bad info

joking aside, does anyone know how we got to 2 names on the dev kit for scarlett?
i think klobrille "2 sku slide" and hmqgg possibly mentioned "Dante" but team thurott has "Danta", though I could be mis-remembering

Click to shrink...

Final countdown just started playing in my head. thanks to this but pretty obvious that something like that would happen.

We don't belive in rumors?:)

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Don't believe the hype!

 

[ItsTheLittleThings]

Half the RAM would, I think, make it much more difficult to run next gen games - especially when we're talking open world stuff.

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Not necessarily - partially resident textures, virtual texturing, resource binding - GPU support for these has improved considerably since early GCN; the ubiquity of consoles is a double edged sword in terms of raising the baseline architectural support while similarly hampering it a decade later, naturally. The rumoured emphasis on storage speed also serves this sort of demand almost hand-in-hand. Of course, Lockhart targeting a different performance spec itself can also imply the use of lower resolution mip levels anyway, where texture data is a fairly big chonk, and usually the mip levels are scaled in powers of 2.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Just to clarify. I talk about Lockhart having next gen games, but Xbox One X won't.
Not about the rumors of Lockhart having less TF than Xbox One.

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So you think xox will have nextgen games like lockhart? That would be surprising.

 

['V']

Thinking a bit more about this, aren't MS' first party games supposedly going to PC as well? That could put them in the same situation 3rd party developers who make for console / PC find themselves in and needing to account for HDDs etc. Its actually possible that the only studios we could see truly pushing the boundaries of what you can do with fast storage could be Sony's first party. Alternatively, MS launches their games that go to PC with high min-spec requirements and maybe it accelerates changes in what the average PC spec looks like.

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Yes as far as I know all future Xbox releases will have a PC version.
And yeah they will always have to accommodate for those PC gamers who might not have the same standard of hardware as a new Xbox console sporting the latest processor and graphics tech available, but as it's first party we will definitely see individual console optimizations just like we see now with XB1X versions of games. We definitely won't see the same approach by 3rd party devs who will do as they do now, one size fits all. But yeah this could be a bonus for Sony seeing as 1st party will only need to target one hardware specification.
As for MS being the cause of change in the PC gaming market, I can't see this happening. Not yet anyway. Maybe if they build an attractive library of games on PC GamePass and people actually are interested in it in masses, maybe then will people consider upgrading their hardware to play those games. I can't see many people upgrading to NVMe SSD's just to play the next Forza or something.

 

[MaxxxPower]

Poor attempt at humor, admittedly

I don't get the gotcha here. He's speculating based on historical precedent. We're all guilty of that and most of us would have guessed specs would have leaked by now with some sort of insider confirmation.

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[disco_potato]

But when the latest games are not coming to current gen anymore there's still going to be people who want to pay less.

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That's what price cuts are for. PS4 had their 1st within the 1st 2 years IIRC, despite having strong sales. Also, they're still releasing FIFA games on ps3, surprisingly. At least they still did last year. It'll be a long time before they stop making games for that 100M+ install base.

 

[Deleted member 18161]

If Sony went with two SKU's. One say targeting CB4k/30fps and one targeting native 4k/60fps then I'd pay $200 more for the second one and I think most enthusiasts would.

The new Xbox doesn't interest me unless the more powerful one (if those are still the rumours?) targets 60fps in all games as I have a beefy PC to play MS exclusives.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

That's what price cuts are for. PS4 had their 1st within the 1st 2 years IIRC, despite having strong sales. Also, they're still releasing FIFA games on ps3, surprisingly. At least they still did last year. It'll be a long time before they stop making games for that 100M+ install base.

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Which will also apply to lockhart.

 

[Nivek]

If we are lucky, they'll be using a 14nm I/O die. It would allow them to have 12GB GDDR6 and 4GB DDR4 if they wanted.
Adding a DDR4 controller to the 14nm I/O die probably wouldn't raise the cost by too much.

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Seperate dies for i/o, cpu and gpu will help maximize graphics.

 

[Rosol]

With the TF number being so influencial, I can see one or both of them pulling out tricks, theoretical numbers, and what ever under the sun can get them to a higher number without technically lying. Going to be interesting to say the least.

 

[Sqrt]

With the TF number being so influencial, I can see one or both of them pulling out tricks, theoretical numbers, and what ever under the sun can get them to a higher number without technically lying. Going to be interesting to say the least.

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Sony said that the PS3 was a 2Tflops device...

 

[Heretic]

With the TF number being so influencial, I can see one or both of them pulling out tricks, theoretical numbers, and what ever under the sun can get them to a higher number without technically lying. Going to be interesting to say the least.

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FP16

 

[AegonSnake]

Sony said that the PS3 was a 2Tflops device...

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the cpu was supposedly 100 gflops, so they were technically correct. 1.84 + 100 gflops = 1.94 tflops.
edit: i thought you were talking about the ps4. my mistake.

 

[disco_potato]

the cpu was supposedly 100 gflops, so they were technically correct. 1.84 + 100 gflops = 1.94 tflops.

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PS3, not ps4. Ps3 was a 400gfs.

 

[AegonSnake]

PS3, not ps4. Ps3 was a 400gfs.

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nope, the graphics card in ps3 was only 170 gflops and the cell was a little over 100 gflops. pretty much the same as jaguar CPUs.

edit: nvm, it seems wikipedia is saying that the cell was 230 gflops and the rsx gpu was 230 gflops.

i highly doubt those numbers but i dont have any other numbers to refute you so i concede. i do remember reading somewhere how the rsx was only 170 gflops which explained why the 250 gflops xbox 360 gpu ran games so much better. i also doubt the cell 230 gflops number but it came directly from IBM so wtf do i know.

edit 2: ok, so we are talking about the ps3, not ps4. my mistake lol

 

[statham]

edit: nah.

 

[TheTruthofKayle]

No I m not talking about exclusives .let's say next COD , if next Xbox would have weaker gpu could it have better looking version or higher resolution of that game due to customization ??

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Sure it can happen on both ..ps5 and xbox...RT hw implementation could be one of those customization

 

[Lagspike_exe]

nope, the graphics card in ps3 was only 170 gflops and the cell was a little over 100 gflops. pretty much the same as jaguar CPUs.

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NVidia did back then claim that RSX was a 2 TFLOPs GPU, using whatever metric they thought they were using. I remember that as well. But it was a marketing stunt, they calculated it in a bizzare fashion:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/possible-schematics-for-rsx-to-hit-1-8-tflop-mark.23725/