Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA

Wandu · Jun 13, 2019

bcatwilly said:
Both Sony and Microsoft will no doubt have customization in their SoC which includes the Ryzen Zen 2 CPU cores. My only point is that there is public on record words by both Microsoft and AMD on Ryzen development work together that likely positions Microsoft very well to do some very interesting custom work in their SoC for Scarlett.

I'm skeptical and I really doubt the 12-core CPU. Due to the Scorpio and Scarlett video reveals being similar makes me think its a 8-core CPU and those are normal PR words imo. I am not saying the MS/AMD partnership is false, so please dont think I am saying that.

Do you think Scarlett will do 8K gaming?

BitsandBytes · Jun 13, 2019

Ruslnis said:
Makes sense. I remember some insider (Benji maybe) told that Sony moved the release date because of software and ps4 being even more successful that they imagined. Am I remembering correctly?

I remember finalflame? saying they knew of something that made them believe Sony were at least aiming to launch in 2019. Anyone else remember that?

dgrdsv said:
Depends on what you mean by "completely". If you're just changing some number of units while the rest of the arch stays the same - same cores, same GPU arch, same IF interconnect, same production process, etc. - then a one year delay is quite enough to rebuild the SoC. You're locked out of any changes about 9-12 months prior to production ramp as this is the time needed for chip going from tape out to the factory through all the testing and metal spins.

I'm no expert of course, but I'd surprised if they could do that in a year but lets say they could. On top of redoing the chip they then have to enlarge the case to accommodate the bigger cooler and fan, put in a higher wattage PSU and possibly redesign the motherboard. I read the below article where Mark Cerny explains the process of designing PS4 and even gives an example of screwing something up in the chip design resulting in a six month delay!

https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/meet-the-guy-who-engineered-the-playstation-4/

bcatwilly · Jun 13, 2019

Wandu said:
I'm skeptical and I really doubt the 12-core CPU. Due to the Scorpio and Scarlett video reveals being similar makes me think its a 8-core CPU and those are normal PR words imo. I am not saying the MS/AMD partnership is false, so please dont think I am saying that.

Do you think Scarlett will do 8K gaming?

Neither will really do 8K gaming if we are all being honest. Those are just PR words from both sides about HDMI 2.1 specs. I just want 4K/60 consistent gaming on a majority of titles where a developer wants that higher frame rate option.

Chamber · Jun 13, 2019

disco_potato said:
We're not getting that in a console. That's a full blown desktop card. As with previous gens, we'll get a slightly cut down version.

No kidding, it's a comparison point.

We might get something similar to the 5700. We might get more CUs and lower clocks, we might get less CUs and higher clocks. No one knows anything about the GPUs right now other than the architecture.

I strongly doubt that in game performance of whatever we get in PS5/Scarlett will be worse than the 5700/Vega 64 but thats my opinion.

M.Bluth · Jun 13, 2019

Wouldn't 12 cores be like the 3900X? 16 cores with 4 disabled? That'll be double the area for a third more threads. Not worth the impact on the GPU area.
I'm doubtful, but maybe that explains the larger estimates for Scarlett's die.

BeImonkey said:
I have a hard time seeing how that would happen though, considering their new ~10 TFLOP card is going to be $450 alone. Unless we're expecting a huge jump in shaders and prices in the next year.

How is the MSRP of the 5700XT relevant?

Isayas · Jun 13, 2019

disco_potato said:
Clock friendly or overclock friendly? 5700 base clocks are already well above Polaris, cards navi is replacing. So her claim holds true

Yes.

We're not getting that in a console. That's a full blown desktop card. As with previous gens, we'll get a slightly cut down version.

How do chiplets work in an APU package? 12 cores = 2 chiplets=2x die space, right?

So you don't expect a 1080ti performance? Then what performance you expect? RTX 2080?

anexanhume · Jun 13, 2019

These two patents just got updated. Clerical things I'm sure, but the content is interesting.

Scheduling instructions for a cell processor (yes, THAT Cell)

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/pub...P&FT=D&date=20110420&CC=EP&NR=2312441A2&KC=A2

Register mapping for emulation

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP2013723B1.html

BeI · Jun 13, 2019

M.Bluth said:
Wouldn't 12 cores be like the 3900X? 16 cores with 4 disabled? That'll be double the area for a third more threads. Not worth the impact on the GPU area.
I'm doubtful, but maybe that explains the larger estimates for Scarlett's die.

How is the MSRP of the 5700XT relevant?

Does Sony get parts for less than half MSRP?

Expy · Jun 13, 2019

anexanhume said:
These two patents just got updated. Clerical things I'm sure, but the content is interesting.

Scheduling instructions for a cell processor (yes, THAT Cell)

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/pub...P&FT=D&date=20110420&CC=EP&NR=2312441A2&KC=A2

Register mapping for emulation

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP2013723B1.html

Wouldn't hold my breath for PS3 emulation, but would be nice.

BeImonkey said:
Does Sony get parts for less than half MSRP?

Depends on the economies of scale.

Miniature Kaiju · Jun 13, 2019

M.Bluth said:
Wouldn't 12 cores be like the 3900X? 16 cores with 4 disabled? That'll be double the area for a third more threads.

In a custom design, they would't need to go with the closed zeppelin designs (i.e. 8 cores clusters), so they'd probably be able to go with straight 12C. So, roughly ~50% more CPU area.

anexanhume said:
These two patents just got updated. Clerical things I'm sure, but the content is interesting.

Scheduling instructions for a cell processor (yes, THAT Cell)

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/pub...P&FT=D&date=20110420&CC=EP&NR=2312441A2&KC=A2

Register mapping for emulation

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP2013723B1.html

Sony including Cell into the design to do emulation CONFIRMED. Cell 2, baby!

Not really.

goonergaz · Jun 13, 2019

All this talk about the power, but in reality the biggest change will be the SSD tech that both consoles will be using. That's real game-changing stuff and I can't wait to see some demos (outside of the Spiderman one from Sony) and what benefit devs will bring to games. Exciting times!

BitsandBytes said:
Right. I've been saying it forever but most think one company can release some specs and the other can just go back and up their specs or have a second 'pill' they can respond with.

Mark Cerny himself said specs are for the most part locked 2 years from release. I guess/assume just tweaks can be done if manufacturing goes well enough.

Thankfully that pool has recently shrunk meaning we should have less such noise in the thread ;)

BitsandBytes · Jun 13, 2019

goonergaz To be fair I misspoke there. I should have said 'a number here', not 'most'.

goonergaz · Jun 13, 2019

BitsandBytes said:
goonergaz To be fair I misspoke there. I should have said 'a number here', not 'most'.

True, but with such a great avatar I didn't want to argue with you ;)

RestEerie · Jun 13, 2019

bcatwilly said:
Yep, Microsoft and AMD said on stage together at Computex that they got together in Redmond 2 years ago to develop the next generation of Ryzen CPUs together. So I do think that is likely where the Xbox "special sauce" ends up being focused the most.

Please, no more 'secret sauce' nonsense....the last time mrxmedia push this term for the of Xbox one, I thought I was reading a flat Earth article

Fastidioso · Jun 13, 2019

BitsandBytes said:
It might be best guess stuff based on the AMD Navi slides but equally I wouldn't rule out Rich and co also having their own sources for the console hardware side. Having both would now (hopefully) bring things into focus.

The last video give me more than a doubt about their reliability for the sony stuff. Especially the part about the RT. Their guess about the Navi slides what would say not said yet here?

bcatwilly · Jun 13, 2019

RestEerie said:
Please, no more 'secret sauce' nonsense....the last time mrxmedia push this term for the of Xbox one, I thought I was reading a flat Earth article

"Secret sauce" means nothing more than SoC customizations, and both Sony and Microsoft will have some of course. I posted Computex video where public words by Microsoft and AMD are talking about them working closely together on next generation Ryzen architecture starting 2 years ago. That is just a straight up fact, and my logical conjecture is that Microsoft is in a position to really do some interesting CPU customization in their Scarlett SoC due to that work with AMD on Ryzen. But hey, throwing shade at people for whatever reason and dragging up crap from years ago that I don't have any clue about is cool too if you want to do that I guess.

BitsandBytes · Jun 13, 2019

goonergaz said:
True, but with such a great avatar I didn't want to argue with you ;)

Ha! PS2 was such a great design. Talking of which...I can't wait to see the case designs for the next-gen consoles.

Fastidioso said:
The last video give me more than a doubt about their reliability for the sony stuff. Especially the part about the RT. Their guess about the Navi slides what would say not said yet here?

The DF crew have been pretty great the last few years for all console speculation stuff from what I've read. I think you should give them the benefit of doubt at least.

DriftingSpirit · Jun 13, 2019

"Hopefully Scorpio is more powerful than PS5."

⚰

DukeBlueBall · Jun 13, 2019

There is enough space on the Anaconda SOC to fit 12 core CPU and a larger than 5700 XT GPU. I had measured the SOC to be 380mm2 to 400m2.

However the reveal would have said 6x instead of 4x. That's a lot of additional CPU power that went be used by cross gen games...

disco_potato · Jun 13, 2019

Isayas said:
So you don't expect a 1080ti performance? Then what performance you expect? RTX 2080?

Compute "power" wise, 2060-2070. Assuming clocks aren't cut by 200-300mhz. But we know consoles can put out games that pull above their weight.

Isayas · Jun 13, 2019

disco_potato said:
Compute "power" wise, 2060-2070. Assuming clocks aren't cut by 200-300mhz. But we know consoles can put out games that pull above their weight.

Yea I know this.

Adookah · Jun 13, 2019

anexanhume said:
These two patents just got updated. Clerical things I'm sure, but the content is interesting.

Scheduling instructions for a cell processor (yes, THAT Cell)

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/pub...P&FT=D&date=20110420&CC=EP&NR=2312441A2&KC=A2

Register mapping for emulation

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP2013723B1.html

Wow, that is a LOT of things I don't understand.

DriftingSpirit · Jun 13, 2019

anexanhume said:
These two patents just got updated. Clerical things I'm sure, but the content is interesting.

Scheduling instructions for a cell processor (yes, THAT Cell)

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/pub...P&FT=D&date=20110420&CC=EP&NR=2312441A2&KC=A2

Register mapping for emulation

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP2013723B1.html

Oh my.

DukeBlueBall · Jun 13, 2019

DriftingSpirit said:
Oh my.

PS3 BC?

Expy · Jun 13, 2019

DukeBlueBall said:
PS3 BC?

That patent is ancient, they probably just had to adjust some legal items in tere.

The_hypocrite · Jun 13, 2019

bcatwilly said:
I did find it somewhat interesting at least that Microsoft did not specifically mention an 8-core Zen 2 CPU, and there is this note from a Windows Central article today - https://www.windowscentral.com/micr...t-be-best-console-says-xbox-head-phil-spencer:

"There are rumors floating around that Scarlett features a 12-core processor compared to the 8-core one found in the PS5, but nothing has been confirmed yet. As with any such leak, take it with a grain of salt until we receive official confirmation and both parties confirm specifications."

Don't astro my turf windows central!

gofreak · Jun 13, 2019

DukeBlueBall said:
PS3 BC?

No.

One is an olddd patent from 2005/2006.

One is from 2007 and seems to relate to PS2 emu on PS3.

Patents resurface in different patent offices or get refreshed periodically. That's all that this is.

Pheonix · Jun 13, 2019

BeImonkey said:
I have a hard time seeing how that would happen though, considering their new ~10 TFLOP card is going to be $450 alone. Unless we're expecting a huge jump in shaders and prices in the next year.

Good thing next gen consoles aren't coming this year then. And that consoles aren't sold with a profit mark up.

And why should AMD price their GPU at $300 when it performs just as well (baring RT) as a $500 and they can see the market clearly doesn't have a problem spending that much.

I have no doubt in my mind that the RX 5700XT doesn't cost AMD more than $350 to make. And that is me even pushing it.

Fastidioso · Jun 13, 2019

BitsandBytes said:
Ha! PS2 was such a great design. Talking of which...I can't wait to see the case designs for the next-gen consoles.

The DF crew have been pretty great the last few years for all console speculation stuff from what I've read. I think you should give them the benefit of doubt at least.

I never said they suck, I just said they won't add nothing of new at the discussion knowing them, except in the case they have the direct source with sony or MS, like the pro and the X in the past. The net is quite faster than their presumptions, in such stuff.

GUNDAM STARDUST · Jun 13, 2019

The_hypocrite said:
Don't astro my turf windows central!

It's hard to astroturf when they're a dedicated site for MS coverage. They aren't really hiding their loyalty. That would be like PlayStation Magazine not wanting PlayStation to be better.

disco_potato · Jun 13, 2019

Pheonix said:
Good thing next gen consoles aren't coming this year then. And that consoles aren't sold with a profit mark up.

And why should AMD price their GPU at $300 when it performs just as well (baring RT) as a $500 and they can see the market clearly doesn't have a problem spending that much.

I have no doubt in my mind that the RX 5700XT doesn't cost AMD more than $350 to make. And that is me even pushing it.

It's probably a good chunk less than $350.
As for AMD pricing, if the super rumors are true, NVIDIA will have pricing parity to negate any savings AMD would have. That could lead to AMD lowering margins and prices.

CatAssTrophy · Jun 13, 2019

I still don't think there's enough evidence to bring us to the conclusion that MS is going to get more beneficial gains from their SoC customization than Sony is. The talk of partnerships between AMD and MS seem nothing more than how first parties get marketing rights to certain multiplatform games.

AMD has already said they're working with Sony on nextgen too, but just not mentioning it all the time like they do with MS. It's clearly just a marketing campaign. "Hey, make sure you mention us a lot and how we're working together on nextbox".

Nothing about it indicates Sony isn't working on beneficial customization either, or that either of them will get any advantage over the other due to their relationships with AMD. I feel like this is some light spin because that previous "MS will have the better box" twitter post kinda fell flat once it came to light that it's looking closer to what we already know about PS5. So now there needs to be something else to continue the "nextbox is more powerful than PS5" speculation.

At this point all we know is that both machines are going to be incredibly similar from a base hardware standpoint as well as their goals, but that MS specifically stated using an SSD as virtual memory and Sony has patents for a custom-built SSD solution for the same purpose. That's all really. I'm not thinking either is going to be substantially better than the other at this point because we just don't have the data.

MrKlaw · Jun 13, 2019

BeImonkey said:
Does Sony get parts for less than half MSRP?

AMD isn't even building them. They'll charge sony a license fee, then Sony takes that to a foundry to get them manufactured.

Pheonix · Jun 13, 2019

BeImonkey said:
Does Sony get parts for less than half MSRP?

Absolutely. Without a doubt. And there are reasons for that.

First, note that that the $450+ you spend on a 5700XT in 2019, is for a complete GPU. Chip, RAM, PCB, Cooler, other components, assembly, packaging, shipping, and AMD's profit mark up.
Then note that the only thing Sony is getting from AMD is the chip.
And at that point, it doesn't matter what kinda chip it s what t comes down to is how big it is. How much would a chip that size ost AMD to get from TSMC, and how much of markup will they add on it and sell to sony/ms?

Then comes in economies of scale. Say AMD pays around $80 to TSMC for a 255mm2 hip, and say $120 360mm2 chip (APU for next-gen consoles example), they won't be marking up the cost of the chip to sony/ms by $100. The most they add on and sell to Sony/ms is like $30-$40. And that is because they know they stand to be making a profit of around $40 on every console sold for all 100M plus of those consoles sold.

And the same to every in else.

bsigg · Jun 13, 2019

The_hypocrite said:
Don't astro my turf windows central!

That isn't astroturfing and thinking it is shows you have no idea what astroturfing actually is.

only_fools_&_horses · Jun 13, 2019

GUNDAM STARDUST said:
It's hard to astroturf when they're a dedicated site for MS coverage. They aren't really hiding their loyalty. That would be like PlayStation Magazine not wanting PlayStation to be better.

Yeah, but you don't write: "hopefully Scarlett will be more powerful". As a journalist you don't write that kind of crap. Even if site is dedicated to some specific platform. I've explained in previous page from where author came.

bsigg · Jun 13, 2019

only_fools_&_horses said:
Yeah, but you don't write: "hopefully Scarlett will be more powerful". That's not loyalty. As a journalist you don't write that kind of crap. I've explained in previous page from where author came.

Oh no, a MS focused website showing their MS bias! Whatever shall we do!

disco_potato · Jun 13, 2019

MrKlaw said:
AMD isn't even building them. They'll charge sony a license fee, then Sony takes that to a foundry to get them manufactured.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...h-thread-ot5-its-in-rdna.120059/post-21366826

BradGrenz said:
This is not true. The x86 licensing deal AMD has with Intel does not allow this. Sony and MS have to buy complete chips from AMD. AMD has to directly deal with foundries like TSMC or Global Foundries.

only_fools_&_horses · Jun 13, 2019

bsigg said:
Oh no, a MS focused website showing their MS bias! Whatever shall we do!

Actually, you don't understand. Fine. It's not about some platform dedication.

BreakAtmo · Jun 13, 2019

Pheonix said:
Absolutely. Without a doubt. And there are reasons for that.

First, note that that the $450+ you spend on a 5700XT in 2019, is for a complete GPU. Chip, RAM, PCB, Cooler, other components, assembly, packaging, shipping, and AMD's profit mark up.

Then note that the only thing Sony is getting from AMD is the chip.

And at that point, it doesn't matter what kinda chip it s what t comes down to is how big it is. How much would a chip that size ost AMD to get from TSMC, and how much of markup will they add on it and sell to sony/ms?

Then comes in economies of scale. Say AMD pays around $80 to TSMC for a 255mm2 hip, and say $120 360mm2 chip (APU for next-gen consoles example), they won't be marking up the cost of the chip to sony/ms by $100. The most they add on and sell to Sony/ms is like $30-$40. And that is because they know they stand to be making a profit of around $40 on every console sold for all 100M plus of those consoles sold.

And the same to every in else.

It would be nice if Sony went ham and was willing to spend $200 on each APU.

bsigg · Jun 13, 2019

only_fools_&_horses said:
Actually, you don't understand. Fine.

Who cares where someone came from? They are very clearly on the right website for the things they prefer. If you can't accept that then don't read their content, it's as simple as that.

Bradbatross · Jun 13, 2019

only_fools_&_horses said:
Yeah, but you don't write: "hopefully Scarlett will be more powerful". As a journalist you don't write that kind of crap. Even if site is dedicated to some specific platform. I've explained in previous page from where author came.

Most of your posts seem to be filled with hate.

MrKlaw · Jun 13, 2019

disco_potato said:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...h-thread-ot5-its-in-rdna.120059/post-21366826

Eww. Really? That's surprising

only_fools_&_horses · Jun 13, 2019

bsigg said:
Who cares where someone came from? They are very clearly on the right website for the things they prefer. If you can't accept that then don't read their content, it's as simple as that.

Because you can't change habits that easily.

bsigg · Jun 13, 2019

only_fools_&_horses said:
You can't change habits that easily.

What habits? Showing that he prefers Xbox? He's not on Ars, Wired or The Verge, he's a writer for a Microsoft focused tech blog, his bias is fine with the position he's in.

Hoo-doo · Jun 13, 2019

I didn't think anyone out there would ever take something written by WindowsCentral or Jez Corden at face value. Come on now.

Even Xbox die-hards should look long and hard at the reliability of all the so-called Xbox 'insiders' after this year's E3.
Nearly all of them are just fanboys with a boner for attention and followers, and the bad thing is that the thirsty fanbase hangs onto their every word.

chowyunfatt · Jun 13, 2019

CatAssTrophy said:
I still don't think there's enough evidence to bring us to the conclusion that MS is going to get more beneficial gains from their SoC customization than Sony is. The talk of partnerships between AMD and MS seem nothing more than how first parties get marketing rights to certain multiplatform games.

AMD has already said they're working with Sony on nextgen too, but just not mentioning it all the time like they do with MS. It's clearly just a marketing campaign. "Hey, make sure you mention us a lot and how we're working together on nextbox".

Nothing about it indicates Sony isn't working on beneficial customization either, or that either of them will get any advantage over the other due to their relationships with AMD. I feel like this is some light spin because that previous "MS will have the better box" twitter post kinda fell flat once it came to light that it's looking closer to what we already know about PS5. So now there needs to be something else to continue the "nextbox is more powerful than PS5" speculation.

At this point all we know is that both machines are going to be incredibly similar from a base hardware standpoint as well as their goals, but that MS specifically stated using an SSD as virtual memory and Sony has patents for a custom-built SSD solution for the same purpose. That's all really. I'm not thinking either is going to be substantially better than the other at this point because we just don't have the data.

Yeah but all what you said make too much sence. :)

The main difference between Microsoft and Sony in my opinion is one likes to talk a lot and the other doesn't, this doesn't mean one is cleverer than the other.

Deleted member 40133 · Jun 13, 2019

Are we on to 12 cores for Xbox now? Yeah I'm sure an insider wouldn't have brought that up considering we were even told they were using GPU decompression, I'm sure they missed that detail /s. Some people will just not give up the ghost

CatAssTrophy · Jun 13, 2019

chowyunfatt said:
Yeah but all what you said make too much sence. :)

The main difference between Microsoft and Sony in my opinion is one likes to talk a lot and the other doesn't, this doesn't mean one is cleverer than the other.

I don't blame MS for it either considering how this gen started off. They want to make sure they're fresh on our minds and excited about what's going to be under the hood of their new machine, whereas Sony just seems to be laser focused on keeping their nose to the grindstone for the time being.

Even as someone who only buys PS consoles and fell off the PC gaming bandwagon, I'd actually prefer if the machines end up being nearly identical power/performance wise so companies can just focus on great games and we can all focus less on DF comparisons and more on playing/enjoying them. (no offense to DF or anything, just using it as a broad example)

Jaypah · Jun 13, 2019

console lover said:
Are we on to 12 cores for Xbox now? Yeah I'm sure an insider wouldn't have brought that up considering we were even told they were using GPU decompression, I'm sure they missed that detail /s. Some people will just not give up the ghost

Just speculation. Like when MS was using Vega or Sony had Navi exclusively.

Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA

What do you think could be the memory setup of your preferred console, or one of the new consoles?

GDDR6

GDDR6 + DDR4

HBM2

HBM2 + DDR4

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