I have a question that might seem weird after months of everyone referring to Gonzalo as the PS5's APU - how do we know it's the PS5 and not Scarlet for instance? I might have missed it because I only join this forum a few months ago, but I don't remember any qualities in the Gonzalo leak that connected it specifically to the PS5. We know it's a gaming chip, but that's it, right? Am I missing anything?
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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The PS3 was Crazy Ken's baby, and likely has virtually nothing to do with the PS5 design beyond being a "what not to do" cautionary tale. And no, the X1X is not an "engineering wonder", it's just newer and pricier. The Pro, from everything I've heard, is pretty much the absolute best console we could have gotten based on the mission statement of "make a $399 PS4K for holiday 2016 without selling at a loss". It implements early Vega features and focuses on smart reconstruction to punch above its weight.
There's this weird assumption that even if Sony had targeted $499 and holiday 2017 like MS (and I wish they had) they still could never have matched the spectacular and glorious X1X, and that's never been worth taking seriously. I think it mostly comes from people who see the X pushing more way more additional pixels than its 40% extra GPU power would suggest, and put this down to Microsoft engineering magic rather than the far more obvious "it has 50% more RAM with 50% more bandwidth". That's why those big resolution jumps only happen in certain games, while in others the jump is a much more standard 40% or so, or even less in some odd cases.
Microsoft is absolutely a great hardware company. So is Sony. Sony making a slightly better next-gen console is entirely believable, especially if they may just be willing to take a somewhat bigger loss or got slightly better APU pricing or something.
It's just repeating the rumors we've already discussed (and Moriarty is banned here).
Codenames. Ariel is linked to Gonzalo, whereas we've been specifically told Arden and Argalus are Xbox.
I remember the main reason being that it had a 'base CPU clock' of 1.6GHz, which a lot of people thought made sense for a 'perfect PS4 BC mode' because it matches the PS4 base CPU clock. Meanwhile, the 'boost clock' off 3.2GHz made sense as the normal clock, for PS5 games and BC boost mode.
This I'd forgotten, thank you for posting it.
At the time this patent was filed, the ray tracing bit would be done on CPU or GPU - baked offline into photon maps. (The novel contribution of this patent is not in the ray tracing phase, but in the runtime phase, gathering samples from the photon maps - it's agnostic about how the raytracing bit is happening. Of course one could imagine that eventually ray tracing might be fast enough to keep a photon map updated dynamically for non-static objects, rather than baked offline, but I don't think it was really in mind at the time this was filed.)
You are underplaying the X in a big way. 1171Mhz GPU in a console? That's a real wonder, something no one had thought would happen.
Is it believable that Sony will have a better-engineered console or a more powerful console? Yes, it is. Is it believable that Microsoft will have a better-engineered console or a more powerful console? Yes, it is. Looking at the past and trying to assume that one will be more powerful than the other is useless, both companies make great hardware in 2019. The only thing that made me think that Anaconda will be more powerful was the existence of Lockheart which helps Microsoft go all out on Anaconda for multiple reasons. If Lockheart doesn't exist? I'm not sure anymore.
The question is, do we know for sure. Because if Gonzalo is the Scarlet's APU, the 1000Mhz early sample vs the 1800Mhz late sample makes an interesting case for Lockheart and Anaconda, especially the really weird 80% difference in clock speeds between two engineering samples made only months apart. Even though I doubt it's possible to bin two APUs with x2 power difference from the same wafer, the disparities are too large.
Oh wow, I misread that and thought it said a 2TB HDD + a small fast SSD. Yeah, 2TB SSD, HELL no. Maybe in a way, way later revision, and even then probably not.
The only type of "leak" of real interest at this stage is to have a web site get some sourced information on one or both of the dev kits that they are willing to post an article on, which of course also provides the opportunity for one or both companies to respond in whatever they choose to this reporting if they feel that it isn't accurately representing their side.
The rumors linked are unreliable. However, we do have Andrew Reiner of Game Informer who initially made this claim (he heard from devs), who is far more reliable.
If i remember well, Komachi E. was also explicit few months ago that Ariel is PS5 GPU.
Also i think Apisak,who first leaked Gonzalo,wrote that one of the letters in Gonzalo ID is reference to Sony machines,not MS.
Btw,i guess we are waiting for Richard L. to return to UK so we can get that new DF video.
This wasn't leaked though. And it wasn't "never" announced.
I don't understand what seems to happen with XB related stuff. How is it that the narrative always just seems to mysteriously shift? I can recall arguing a few weeks back abouthowMS didn't "really" say anything about having the most powerful box. Which would mean that the whole world and media just somehow mind hatched this notion MSwee going to be more powerful for no reason whatsoever.
And now the same thing is happening with Scarlett. We all just somehow hatched this notion that there were to be two consoles. Because MS has "never" aid anything to that effect.
No I'm not. The higher clocks are because of the vapor chamber, plus (I'm guessing) an extra year of 16nm node maturation. Vapor chambers aren't some magic technology that MS invented, they're just a better standard cooling solution that costs an extra $15-20 that wasn't in the Pro budget. Plenty of graphics cards have vapor chambers too, from what I remember.
The X isn't better-engineered. What it DOES show, however, is the degree of extra performance you can get from a 25% cost increase these days. If you want to argue that targeting $499 instead of $399 was an example of smarter console design, that I would be on board with (IMO the Pro should've been a $499 machine that still focused on hitting checkerboard 4K while also increasing framerates).
Agreed - I was also expecting Anaconda to probably be the most powerful for largely the same reasons. MS would want the most powerful console more. The word from Reiner that the PS5 devkits are stronger was surprising to me too, and I still wonder if it's maybe just that the Scarlett devkits have a smaller jump in power from the consumer device target.
When did they announce two SKUs, then? Are you implying the leaks aren't leaks? Where's your evidence?
About Lockhart:
I am sure based on what I know that Lockhart was part of the plan and the leaks about it were not planned to confuse the competition. This is just too much of a conspiracy theory in my opinion. Sony is the best example that plans can change, same is valid for MS.
I am sure based on what I know that Lockhart was part of the plan and the leaks about it were not planned to confuse the competition. This is just too much of a conspiracy theory in my opinion. Sony is the best example that plans can change, same is valid for MS.
It's a pity Komachi didn't elaborate why they thought Ariel is PS5....
As for Richard it was just weird how he specifically said he would talk about the AMD/PS5/Scarlett thing in the "one more E3 broadcast" and then hasn't been seen since! Maybe one or more of AMD/Sony/Microsoft asked him to hold back?
That is exactly what they are going for. Dont confirm nor deny anything. Just imply the best outcome for your company. Something goes wrong - you can shift the narrative pretty easy in any direction that will benefit you
Assuming that is true, we would have a NAVI 10 based GPU with 40CU with 4 disabled (36 active). 36CU -> 2304sp at 1.8Ghz, that would give you ~8.3TF.
They talked about "next-generation of Xbox consoles" leading to speculation from DF there could be two Skus as early as last E3.
Multiple sources talked about two Skus in leaks, pointing to that being the case.
Most recently, when asked by multiple sources if the Scarlet is a singular device they couldn't a firm answer.
The Gonzalo chip was supposedly based on Navi 10. We know now that Navi 10 is 40CU.
Yes. But you are not getting a 8.3 tflops glu in a console next gen.
It will not have 36 CUs. They will figure out a way to include another shader engine and add 20 more CUs.
54 CU with 6 disabled at 1.8 ghz = 12.4
Considering the power consumption of the card, this is highly unlikely.
Regarding the first part, talking about "the next generation of Xbox consoles" doesn't confirm anything. That could just as easily be interpreted as a future mid gen refresh situation.
The fact is that Microsoft owe absolutely nothing in terms of an explanation about their change of plans because any mention of two SKUs was either speculation or rumour, regardless of what was actually going on behind the scenes.
Yeah we'd be looking at between 250w and 280w power draw. AMD really dropped the ball and will get their asses handed to them when Nvidia decides to move on from 12nm. Not that it matters for the console market of course.
The best marketing is that which others do for you for free and a whole lot of people built up the Xbox brand over the last year with report after report. Even without Xbox itself saying a word or even being open to being interviewed about what they're doing. Lol
I feel kinda vindicated though after multiple times saying the two console strategy doesn't make sense if it was indeed canceled. We'll see next year!
Alright. But you'll have to explain what happens in term of power consumption.
Because as of right now, RX5700 XT is the only one that fits the bill and it offers between VEGA64 performances for around 150W. Where do you expect them to land performance wise and at what power consumption ?
So you are taking 225w TBP card with a 251mm^2 die, adding 35% more CUs, adding RT and other "special sauce" silicon, adding more memory controllers (Scarlet has at least a 320-bit interface if we counted 10 or 12 chips in the CGI clip right) and still running it at 1800Mhz which is higher than the 5700 XT average gaming speed? Sounds like the most optimistic permutation we could get in a next-gen console.
I don't like this conversation, the X is one impressive feat and you are making it sound like they went to Radio Shack and threw some parts together. Sony was limited to 36CUs because the PS4 had 18CU and BC scared them. Microsoft went all out. In the end you have over the shelf PC parts and you have to do the best you can with them with some customization. 50% more memory, 50% more memory bandwidth, a freaking 382-bit interface in a console, almost 50% more GPU power, 10% faster CPU while being the same size, quieter and made on the same manufacturing node as the Pro. Common, don't downplay the X, it's a wonderful piece of hardware.
I'm actually not 100% sure, but I remember Phil Spencer saying that Scarlet dev kits aren't out for developers yet in the Gaint Bomb interview. So I wonder, if dev kits aren't out yet, who outside Microsoft knows the Scarlet specs and how can they know both the Scarlet specs AND the PS5 specs in order to tell which is more powerful?
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Yeah, no chance of this. At best we get this chip but at 1500MHz, or basically just an XT with the extra stuff on a more mature 7nm. Even that idea raises eyebrows.
Seems like it indeed. People should've realized the moment we changed from GCN, the old count wouldn't work anymore.
RX 5700 XT offers as much gaming performances as a 12Tflops VEGA part, for a power consumption close to 160W.
With SSD and actually good CPU this time I will be perfectly okay with 8-9 GCN flops.
I never suggested they should comment on the Lockhart, but it seems awfully weird that they can't confirm the Scarlet as a singular device.
If the Lockhart didn't exist/was shelved, they'd have no trouble telling people that there's only one Scarlet.
Instead they go, this is the only device we're talking about rn, which heavily implies there's more.
Here's what I think...
So MS being pointedly clear about " Hardware Accelerated Ray-Tracing", leads me to think they have silicon specifically for that task. If it's in the SOC then obviously that takes space. Effectively limiting the GPU TF wise...
... now, Sony may or may not have the same Ray-Tracing solution. Their GPU might indeed have more raw power TF wise, but might be planning on utilizing that raw power, or set aside some of it, for Ray-Tracing (explaining the early rumors, if TFs were the metric).
So in essence they are both technicaly doing Hardware Ray-Tracing. Just one has dedicated silicon for it at the expense of GPU power. And the other has more GPU power but that power will take a hit when using Ray-Tracing.
Both systems will be amazing that's for sure.
So MS being pointedly clear about " Hardware Accelerated Ray-Tracing", leads me to think they have silicon specifically for that task. If it's in the SOC then obviously that takes space. Effectively limiting the GPU TF wise...
... now, Sony may or may not have the same Ray-Tracing solution. Their GPU might indeed have more raw power TF wise, but might be planning on utilizing that raw power, or set aside some of it, for Ray-Tracing (explaining the early rumors, if TFs were the metric).
So in essence they are both technicaly doing Hardware Ray-Tracing. Just one has dedicated silicon for it at the expense of GPU power. And the other has more GPU power but that power will take a hit when using Ray-Tracing.
Both systems will be amazing that's for sure.
Maybe they mean the streaming box. Or they're leaving their wording vague because of mid gen refreshes. Who knows.
I do wonder why Klobrille couldn't now fill in the blanks on that image he did that has the spec information.
I dont think this types of games where ever built with consoles in mind this gen.
Your logic here is that they can't confirm or deny because there might be another console in the works.
So, why couldn't this console be the one that was widely leaked and talked about.
There's no reason to believe Lockhart doesn't exist, especially since MS could very easily deny it.
The patent was filed the 4th may 2015 more than one year after imgtec Power VR launch the first raytracing accelerated GPU
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Imgtec launch the first accelerated GPU and have some technologies Nvidia does not have like the Scene Hierarchy Generator (SHG) and the hardware ray reordering for example
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