• Light/Dark
  • Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA

What do you think could be the memory setup of your preferred console, or one of the new consoles?

  • GDDR6

    Votes: 566 41.0%

  • GDDR6 + DDR4

    Votes: 540 39.2%

  • HBM2

    Votes: 53 3.8%

  • HBM2 + DDR4

    Votes: 220 16.0%
  • Total voters
    1,379
Status
Not open for further replies.
Reader mode

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
modiz said:
i am pretty sure it was something else, from gofreak's thread:
"A secondary CPU, a DMAC, and a hardware accelerator for decoding, tamper checking and decompression. "
"The main CPU, the secondary CPU, the system memory controller and the IO bus are connected by a coherent bus. The patent notes that the secondary CPU can be different in instruction set etc. from the main CPU, as long as they use the same page size and are connected by a coherent bus. "

uS6bo2P.png
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You honestly think that Sony is spending the PS5 a second CPU? If so, on the SOC or as a 2nd chip on the PCB?
 
DrKeo

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
Flutter said:
My guess for the 2nd CPU is the possibly embedded breakout box chip for the PSVR. Here are the lads at Beyond3D talking about it.


Think that makes sense. Maybe something that can handle non-gaming or OS related tasks in parallel with the APU.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Thing is, if the ARM CPU is used as the VR breakout box, it won't be able to decompress data from the SSD while doing VR. Another thing is, if data flows from the SSD that fast, you don't want a weak ARM processor decompressing it, you want the powerful Zen 2 processor or the GPU decompressing it or you are making your SSD kinda useless. I'm guessing the main CPU will be the one decompressing the data flowing from the SSD, why not if you have such a powerful CPU in a console? There might be an ARM processor in the PS5 just like the PS4, but I doubt that it will do such heavy lifting like decompressing data from a 5GB/s SSD, it will probably handle the OS.
 
thuway

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,168
Colbert said:
You honestly think that Sony is spending the PS5 a second CPU? If so, on the SOC or as a 2nd chip on the PCB?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think so. Cerny worked on Spiderman, The Last Guardian, and is technical producer on Death Stranding.

These experiences and headaches during development have helped formulate the custom SSD and probably what's in the patent.


I'm sure it costs a money, but it probably is doing something extra special.
 
Chamon

Chamon

Member
Feb 26, 2019
1,221
VX1 said:
A bit off topic but important for next gen streaming "future":



It seems we Euros are not exactly big fans...

"German players are the least interested, with just 10% of gamers keeping an eye on the services and 75% who are not interested."
cc: Colbert :)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


Well, they are asking gamers. I think the whole point of streaming is to bring in new people, not to replace consoles.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
chris 1515 said:
There is an ARM CPU inside PS4 and PS4 Pro... It will not be a very powerful CPU just something like an ARM CPU dedicated to manage the SSD...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, I misinterpreted the image and thought the 2nd CPU is the entire block diagram. But the 2nd CPu is just that tiny Sub CPU tagged #32.
thuway said:
I think so. Cerny worked on Spiderman, The Last Guardian, and is technical producer on Death Stranding.

These experiences and headaches during development have helped formulate the custom SSD and probably what's in the patent.


I'm sure it costs a money, but it probably is doing something extra special.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
See my response to Chris above. It is just a small dual/triple function CPU.

------ Another topic

Looking at the patents block diagram those are a lot of additional building blocks for the PS5 SOC. I start to believe that PS5 is indeed NAVI 10 LITE with all the additional area needed for Audio Block, RT Block, SSD Accelerator Block, Sub-CPU block, Coherent Bus ...
 
Last edited:
thuway

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,168
Colbert said:
Yeah, I misinterpreted the image and thought the 2nd CPU is the entire block diagram. But the 2nd CPu is just that tiny Sub CPU tagged #32.

See my response to Chris above. It is just a small dual/triple function CPU.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Lol I saw just now. I think the patent demonstrates thinking outside the box on how the ssd handles data bottlenecks.
 
bcatwilly

bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
VX1 said:
A bit off topic but important for next gen streaming "future":



It seems we Euros are not exactly big fans...

"German players are the least interested, with just 10% of gamers keeping an eye on the services and 75% who are not interested."
cc: Colbert :)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


I am not predicting how quickly game streaming will take off, but a survey before people have actually tried out Stadia or xCloud services for themselves isn't terribly useful at this point given that most who have tried Stadia or xCloud at E3 came away surprised and impressed with it in general. And those were "gamers" who had tried those services in those settings too.
 
chris 1515

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
DrKeo said:
Thing is, if the ARM CPU is used as the VR breakout box, it won't be able to decompress data from the SSD while doing VR. Another thing is, if data flows from the SSD that fast, you don't want a weak ARM processor decompressing it, you want the powerful Zen 2 processor or the GPU decompressing it or you are making your SSD kinda useless. I'm guessing the main CPU will be the one decompressing the data flowing from the SSD, why not if you have such a powerful CPU in a console? There might be an ARM processor in the PS5 just like the PS4, but I doubt that it will do such heavy lifting like decompressing data from a 5GB/s SSD, it will probably handle the OS.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

There is a hardware decompressor, secondary CPU is just for management of the SSD... In the solution inside the patent, the Zen2 CPU ask a data and wait to receive it.

EDIT: In the patent it is clear the speed depends of the hardware decompressor and secondary CPU power and this is where the cost limitation will come. I think 5GB/s is more reasaonnable than 10 GB/s and it looks like real speed of the SSD. Using Bluray and a 1 TB SSD, having more than 5 GB/s does not look like interesting knowing the game size out of loading... this is no like game size will balloon to 400 or 500 GB... Or we need highly compressed data (procedural generation or displacement/tesselation?)
 
Last edited:
modiz

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,844
chris 1515 said:
There is a hardware decompressor, secondary CPU is just for management of the SSD... In the solution inside the patent, the Zen2 CPU ask a data and wait to receive it.

EDIT: In the patent it is clear the speed depends of the hardware decompressor and secondary CPU power and this is where the cost limitation will come. I think 5GB/s is more reasaonnable than 10 GB/s and it looks like real speed of the SSD. Using Bluray and a 1 TB SSD, having more than 5 GB/s does not look like interesting knowing the game size out of loading... this is no like game size will balloon to 400 or 500 GB... Or we need highly compressed data (procedural generation or displacement/tesselation?)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
first off regarding game sizes, developers wont be making games that are bigger than the size of the disc that are required to play the game, that is something sony are enforcing from the developers to keep physical media playable for those with no internet connection. maybe some will do 2 discs but idk, might be too expensive. so most games wont surpass 128GB of game data.

second, now that i think about it, 5GB a second might be fantastic by itself. you will only have a maximum of 24GB of Ram in a console, or 20GB of usable RAM for games, if you can stream 5GB/s from your SSD, then you can technically fill the ram data in 4 seconds?
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
chris 1515 said:
There is a hardware decompressor, secondary CPU is just for management of the SSD... In the solution inside the patent, the Zen2 CPU ask a data and wait to receive it.

EDIT: In the patent it is clear the speed depends of the hardware decompressor and secondary CPU power and this is where the cost limitation will come. I think 5GB/s is more reasaonnable than 10 GB/s and it looks like real speed of the SSD. Using Bluray and a 1 TB SSD, having more than 5 GB/s does not look like interesting knowing the game size out of loading... this is no like game size will balloon to 400 or 500 GB... Or we need highly compressed data (procedural generation or displacement/tesselation?)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think 5GB/s is still a too high expectation. The main advantage will be the uplift in random access patterns combined with a higher reading bandwidth. I expect something in line with less than 2GB/s average. Unless you were talking about peak ...
 
cjn83

cjn83

Banned
Jul 25, 2018
284
modiz said:
first off regarding game sizes, developers wont be making games that are bigger than the size of the disc that are required to play the game, that is something sony are enforcing from the developers to keep physical media playable for those with no internet connection. maybe some will do 2 discs but idk, might be too expensive. so most games wont surpass 128GB of game data.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

As someone who remembers when games used to come on 20 floppy disks.... this made me chuckle a bit. =)
 
DrKeo

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
chris 1515 said:
There is a hardware decompressor, secondary CPU is just for management of the SSD... In the solution inside the patent, the Zen2 CPU ask a data and wait to receive it.

EDIT: In the patent it is clear the speed depends of the hardware decompressor and secondary CPU power and this is where the cost limitation will come. I think 5GB/s is more reasaonnable than 10 GB/s and it looks like real speed of the SSD. Using Bluray and a 1 TB SSD, having more than 5 GB/s does not look like interesting knowing the game size out of loading... this is no like game size will balloon to 400 or 500 GB... Or we need highly compressed data (procedural generation or displacement/tesselation?)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Even if games do stay around the 100GB mark, you are throwing data from the SSD to memory 50 times faster with a 5GB/s SSD so the more computing power for decompressing and building data structures the better. Even the PS4 and XBO are limited by the CPU when loading data from their slow HDD, you can see that just by looking at how much faster X games load because of the 30% CPU clock boost. So they need a very fast decompressor, sounds like something that will take a significant area on the die. I'm with Colbert on this one, it's probably closer to 2GB/s than 5+. BTW, Microsoft keeps talking about how heavily customized their CPU is, maybe part of that customization is related to decompressing data from the SSD.
 

Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
gundamkyoukai said:
Thing is for new games your not subbing but buying .
If i buy avengers endgame on DD or Blu ray i will always have it but if i buy a new game on stadia i don't own it .
Not to mention that games much more expensive .
Right now when it comes to game streaming \ subbing services they still need to catch up to other streaming services for other media.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

But say on Gamepass I'm subbing and getting new games.....

Whilst I agree the stadia model is inherently not advantageous the longer direction will surely be some sort of model like gamepass. You might not get every game in there new or whatever but a mix of older and newer content....

I don't know. I have no real horse in the race - I buy digital games and am happy with that but equally streaming could be an option (if the laws of physics can ever be broken ;) but yeah)...

I mean you had physical music/film enthusiasts bemoaning streaming or digital ownership models but ultimately not much resistance. Gamers seem very wedded to how things were which is interesting sociologically.
 
nib95

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
thuway said:
No offense but we should ban all paste bin talk because it honestly feels like they lead us no where
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

As far as I remember, one of the pastebins from the end of last year was actually pretty much dead on, from predicting the rough specs, to even correctly stating when Sony would do their initial mini reveal. I don't know if this particular pastbin is from the same user, or if the other one was just lucky guesses, but it's something to consider.
 
modiz

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,844
nib95 said:
As far as I remember, one of the pastebins from the end of last year was actually pretty much dead on, from predicting the rough specs, to even correctly stating when Sony would do their initial mini reveal. I don't know if this particular pastbin is from the same user, or if the other one was just lucky guesses, but it's something to consider.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If you are talking about the one i think you are talking about, that one was very inaccurate about the specs, and was like 14TF navi gpu.
 
DrKeo

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
gundamkyoukai said:
Thing is for new games your not subbing but buying .
If i buy avengers endgame on DD or Blu ray i will always have it but if i buy a new game on stadia i don't own it .
Not to mention that games much more expensive .
Right now when it comes to game streaming \ subbing services they still need to catch up to other streaming services for other media.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm guessing Xcloud will solve this problem. Right now it's 10$ a month, Microsoft will probably have something like a 15$ per month subscription to Xcloud and Gamepass combined that will allow users to just start playing with 100+ games in their Xcloud library at all times. Sounds very casual friendly to me, it's literally Netflix.
 
thuway

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,168
nib95 said:
As far as I remember, one of the pastebins from the end of last year was actually pretty much dead on, from predicting the rough specs, to even correctly stating when Sony would do their initial mini reveal. I don't know if this particular pastbin is from the same user, or if the other one was just lucky guesses, but it's something to consider.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
What was it? Did it mention Gonzalo
 
Luckydog

Luckydog

Attempting to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
636
USA
bear force one said:
Once servers are done the game disappears. With music, movies, and shows they can be saved for history. If you'd like to give away games like this great. I find anyone supporting game streaming as the future foul.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Why does the game disappear? The game is still available for purchase elsewhere so its not "lost to history". If netflix disappears tomorrow, all its content doesn't disappear from history. Their IP will just be sold to someone else and sold elsewhere. We see this with physical as well. People who bough in hard to betamax or laserdisc when those systems went belly up and their players broke. Everything they bought was useless....but it wasnt lost to history.
 
gofreak

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
Colbert said:
Looking at the patents block diagram those are a lot of additional building blocks for the PS5 SOC. I start to believe that PS5 is indeed NAVI 10 LITE with all the additional area needed for Audio Block, RT Block, SSD Accelerator Block, Sub-CPU block, Coherent Bus ...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The IO stuff could well live off-SOC, on the PCB - meaning the IO bus, any 'accelerator' or 'sub-cpu', if actually physically distinct from the main CPU. Hard to say for sure of course.
 
RoninStrife

RoninStrife

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,002
Luckydog said:
Why does the game disappear? The game is still available for purchase elsewhere so its not "lost to history". If netflix disappears tomorrow, all its content doesn't disappear from history. Their IP will just be sold to someone else and sold elsewhere. We see this with physical as well. People who bough in hard to betamax or laserdisc when those systems went belly up and their players broke. Everything they bought was useless....but it wasnt lost to history.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Just like the certainty Telltales game collection will be available in future?
Truth is.. he is kind of right... but you are to.
Yes... it *may* be available elsewhere down the line.. but it may/maynot be given some sprucing up and sold as a new version, edition and there for us to rebuy.
We just don't know anything about game streaming with certainty.
 
Luckydog

Luckydog

Attempting to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
636
USA
Nivek said:
Thats the reason for benchmarks.
True power will be definitive in benchmarks
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Benchmarks can be fudged in any industry. Look at "speedtest" sites that have inflated speed numbers for only when they run, VW changing the way their cars operate when connected to environmental detection systems to meet needed benchmarks, Some android phones have been known to run processors hot only during benchmark to inflate numbers.

i'm not saying anyone in games is doing this, but benchmarks are not definitive.
 
Luckydog

Luckydog

Attempting to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
636
USA
RoninStrife said:
Just like the certainty Telltales game collection will be available in future?
Truth is.. he is kind of right... but you are to.
Yes... it *may* be available elsewhere down the line.. but it may/maynot be given some sprucing up and sold as a new version, edition and there for us to rebuy.
We just don't know anything about game streaming with certainty.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

True, and this is a good point. But there is no guarantee ANY company will continue to sell something in the future. Look at Disney that puts some movies "in the vault" and you can no longer buy it. If I have a VHS copy of a "vault" video I can still use that till it breaks, but that doesnt mean I can buy one in the future. Same with digital games. Your current copy of Telltales games collections will continue to work, but if your PC or console dies, you may not be able to buy it again. Its not like telltale is wiping hard drives.
 
TheThreadsThatBindUs

TheThreadsThatBindUs

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
modiz said:
what i meant is that according to the article, a chiplet design uses up more power than a single die, which is not something that console mnaufacturers would want.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Which is why context is important and that's precisely what the twitter commentator misses.

The higher inter chiplet communication power consumption is only true for mobile when the small, low clocked, mobile SoCs are consuming something of the order of 5 to 10 Watts max..

Console APUs will consume something like 20 to 30 times this amount, so the inter-chiplet comms power consumption is a none-issue.

Mobile chips are by design, low power because they need to run off a battery. Consoles, desktops and servers don't.

VX1 said:
A bit off topic but important for next gen streaming "future":



It seems we Euros are not exactly big fans...

"German players are the least interested, with just 10% of gamers keeping an eye on the services and 75% who are not interested."
cc: Colbert :)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


Based Europe.

70% of Europeans are sensible gamers who don't want to see greedy publishers shit the entire games industry down the toilet: through the removal of gamer ownership rights and gamer control over how they access and use gaming hw and software.

gofreak said:
Perhaps in that case AMD did disclose it ahead of an official announcement, but I don't think such disclosures are a matter of policy. Other cases are proof of that, were clearing in development for some time before they were public knowledge. Ergo - just because AMD hasn't disclosed them, doesn't mean they don't have other semi-custom wins in the pipe.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I agree.

Phil me in said:
Well it seems in every other thread people are claiming the new consoles will use a mobile version of zen.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's probably why they aren't posting in this thread... because they'd get their cluelessness called out pretty quick.
 
chris 1515

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
DrKeo said:
Even if games do stay around the 100GB mark, you are throwing data from the SSD to memory 50 times faster with a 5GB/s SSD so the more computing power for decompressing and building data structures the better. Even the PS4 and XBO are limited by the CPU when loading data from their slow HDD, you can see that just by looking at how much faster X games load because of the 30% CPU clock boost. So they need a very fast decompressor, sounds like something that will take a significant area on the die. I'm with Colbert on this one, it's probably closer to 2GB/s than 5+. BTW, Microsoft keeps talking about how heavily customized their CPU is, maybe part of that customization is related to decompressing data from the SSD.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think it will be 5GB/s for faster loading, depending of the memory size 1.5 to 2.5 GB/s will be enough for the streaming. In the example they give they talk about a hardware decompressor accelerator with a frequency of 1Ghz able to treat 128 bit data for reaching 10 GB/s...

EDIT: The speed they give inside the patent are not peak utlisation, this is average speed. But I think 1.5 to 2.5 GB/s are enough for streaming depending of the compression.. 5 GB/s means you can stream a 100 GB game in 20 seconds no interest at all.
 
Last edited:
sncvsrtoip

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
KennyX said:
Please stop.

Radeon RX5700XT @ 1885MHz is not the same as Radeon VII @1850MHz
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Good point but amd claims 9.75tf navi is 1.14x 12.58tf vega64. Soon after first review we will know for sure. Edit: radeon vii has 1,024 GB/s bandwidth which gives him additional performance boost. There were no info about navi10 vs radeon vii.
 
Reader mode
Status
Not open for further replies.