Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA

What do you think could be the memory setup of your preferred console, or one of the new consoles?


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modiz

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Oct 8, 2018
4,693
I am talking about Matt, obviously.
oh i misread your post, i thought matt was unrelated to that.
i always took matt as someone with more access to the business side rather than a super technical access, and that his reasoning for his guess mostly comes from MS wanting to be the performance leader, rather than direct knowledge of the specs.
 

score01

Member
Oct 27, 2017
954
Matt's feeling shouldn't be taken as gospel here. It's not based on knowledge but feeling.
Not taken as gospel but an educated guess is based on a lot more than feels.

Seriously guys, it won’t be the end of the world if MS is stronger than Sony next gen. As long as there is no glaring oversight with the PS5 or it is significantly underpowered (like the OG xbone) all will be fine I’m sure.
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,323
Not taken as gospel but an educated guess is based on a lot more than feels.

Seriously guys, it won’t be the end of the world if MS is stronger than Sony next gen. As long as there is no glaring oversight with the PS5 or it is significantly underpowered (like the OG xbone) all will be fine I’m sure.
Likewise, the opposite right? Since there is just about as much indication both ways...
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
4,693
Not taken as gospel but an educated guess is based on a lot more than feels.

Seriously guys, it won’t be the end of the world if MS is stronger than Sony next gen. As long as there is no glaring oversight with the PS5 or it is significantly underpowered (like the OG xbone) all will be fine I’m sure.
the thing is that we are hearing two opposing rumors from 2 different sources.
one is Andrew Reiner, who knows a lot of developers due to his position in Game Informer, and he often plays games that are in development before anyone else, he likely has a very good relationship with developers in the industry, and he claims PS5 is stornger (note, he never said its from dev kits, and he doubled down on it by saying that developers already know the target specs)
the other is Matt, a very trustworthey moderator on this forum which has been very generous in letting us know about things going behind the scenes like about the future of the industry, and on the PS5 in the old forum mostly. and he says that based off an educated guess scarlett will be stronger.

tbh, i do not know which one is accurate, i trust both of them to deliver the most accurate answer to their knowledge, which is why the best course of action is to just be open minded about everything.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,432
United Kingdom
Bro-fist, fellow Ring of Red fan. :D

You are somewhat arguing against your 'all the best games are remastered' statement here though. There are many excellent games from previous consoles that should be accessible, although how that might best be don't is open to debate. Im not holding out much hope of pre-PS4 BC.
I actually meant that all the best PS3 games had been remastered.

Of course barely any PS2 and PS1 games have. I do think an emulator is possible for PS4. I just think that many of the games we'd actually wanna play from that era are so bound up in licensing hell that Sony isn't able to sell them digitally on the PS Store.
 

Snakeeee

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Jan 20, 2019
1,308
Not taken as gospel but an educated guess is based on a lot more than feels.

Seriously guys, it won’t be the end of the world if MS is stronger than Sony next gen. As long as there is no glaring oversight with the PS5 or it is significantly underpowered (like the OG xbone) all will be fine I’m sure.
And the other way around is not possible because ?

Everybody expects the xbox to be more powerful, before the reiner tweet if you said that the ps5 whould be more powerful you would get shit on.

Soo yes, both consoles can be the most powerful and there is no such thing as one is final and the other can still change, both consoles are yet to be final or we whould already had the specs.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
4,693
And the other way around is not possible because ?

Everybody expects the xbox to be more powerful, before the reiner tweet if you said that the ps5 whould be more powerful you would get shit on.

Soo yes, both consoles can be the most powerful and there is no such thing as one is final and the other can still change, both consoles are yet to be final or we whould already had the specs.
most of what we are hearing does suggest the sillicon of both consoles is pretty much near final now, i think only what is left to be deicded (and i predict will be decided by december), is the exact memory size and clock speeds.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,320
most of what we are hearing does suggest the sillicon of both consoles is pretty much near final now, i think only what is left to be deicded (and i predict will be decided by december), is the exact memory size and clock speeds.
also if we're flip flopping which is more powerful then it may simply be down to yields, cooling, clock tweaks - so they'd have to be fairly close now, and would continue to be fairly close (just the other way round). Which hopefully lets us not worry too much about hyperbolic console warring about specs (we'll just do it about exclusives/services etc anyway..)
 

xICHIGOx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
310
For now PS5 might be more powerful, but it's probably just slightly more powerful (I'd say 10.2 and 10.6, something like that), not 20% more powerful which is highly improbable as both target the same price without spending on gimmicks.

But most importantly Matt thinks xbox will eventually be more powerful. And Matt knows more than any of us. That means 2 things for me:
- Currently the gap is very small, probably <10% (if it was 20% I don't think Matt could even think MS could catch up).
- MS will be able to fill the gap according to a guy that allegedly knows both sides of the story: devkits, specs and docs. So there must be a reason for that.

My guess is that PS5 silicon is near final design, and MS is far from being final, so they can still tweak it somehow or improve the cooling solution, make a bigger box, in order to significantly overclock the APU (like +10%), just enough to beat PS5.
Matt was only making an educated guess nothing more it could be even an educated guess to predict an edge for ps5 or a parity of some sort. Nobody know nothing at this point.
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,463
Tokyo
Question is whether 16GB total system RAM prior to all the apportionment or Usable.



I am still unsure as whether it will have DRAM for SSD given Sony's patent.



After both the Heretic demo running at 1440p30fps and AMD's press conference about how 5700 series is best suited for 1440p resolution, I am betting top dollars on next gen base resolution being 1440p.
I can see this especially with AMD'S tech doing something like DLSS with their Imagine Sharpening tech to up for 4k.
 

Philippo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,142
Milan, Italy
After both the Heretic demo running at 1440p30fps and AMD's press conference about how 5700 series is best suited for 1440p resolution, I am betting top dollars on next gen base resolution being 1440p.
I can see this especially with AMD'S tech doing something like DLSS with their Imagine Sharpening tech to up for 4k.
How does 1440p look on 4K screens (never tried, and to my eyes 1080p looks good on my 4k monitor)? Does it scale well with 4K checkboard?
 

score01

Member
Oct 27, 2017
954
And the other way around is not possible because ?

Everybody expects the xbox to be more powerful, before the reiner tweet if you said that the ps5 whould be more powerful you would get shit on.

Soo yes, both consoles can be the most powerful and there is no such thing as one is final and the other can still change, both consoles are yet to be final or we whould already had the specs.
oh - it absolutely is possible, and as a fan of Sonys output, it would be great news... but Microsoft absolutely need the power crown more and I fully expect them to eek out a win here even if it boils down to a last minute clock adjustment which makes little difference in the real world.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
4,693
Question is whether 16GB total system RAM prior to all the apportionment or Usable.



I am still unsure as whether it will have DRAM for SSD given Sony's patent.



After both the Heretic demo running at 1440p30fps and AMD's press conference about how 5700 series is best suited for 1440p resolution, I am betting top dollars on next gen base resolution being 1440p.
1440p does seem to be the sweet spot for Navi 10, best quality/performance results.
and yea the patents do seem to indicate a usage of small SRAM rather than DRAM for the SSD, which is interesting. based off phil's interview about access timing i assume their SSD uses DRAM instead, i still dont exactly understand what are the advantages/disadvantage of using each one, gofreak can you clarify about that?
 

FF Seraphim

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Oct 26, 2017
3,463
Tokyo

gofreak

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Oct 26, 2017
2,318
1440p does seem to be the sweet spot for Navi 10, best quality/performance results.
and yea the patents do seem to indicate a usage of small SRAM rather than DRAM for the SSD, which is interesting. based off phil's interview about access timing i assume their SSD uses DRAM instead, i still dont exactly understand what are the advantages/disadvantage of using each one, gofreak can you clarify about that?

I don't think a reference to access timing directly suggests DRAM vs SRAM. There's various things that affect access time.

On SRAM vs DRAM, I guess taking the patents' explanations at face value and trying to keep it simple:

SRAM might be faster/'better' for access to low-write, high-read data
DRAM might be faster/'better' for access to high-write, low-read data (at least vs a cache-miss in a SRAM setup)

The patent makes the suggestion that you might want to optimise for the former scenario in a games machine more than the latter, that it would be more advantageous to optimise for read-access to game asset data.

DRAM would I guess, also potentially have more space for cached data, at least depending on the size of your address lookup tables in use. Although there might be nothing to stop an implementation using SRAM for address lookup and block operation data, and a smaller-than-typical amount of DRAM on the side just for caching. SRAM has some other side advantages too - namely the ability to use it at a lower power-cost for standby mode operations.

As always, I wouldn't conclude for sure what the setup in either machine actually is at this point.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,382
Reiner was stating a fact, conveying what the state of the affairs is right now, Matt was making a prediction about the future.

I think is safe to say PS5 has an slight edge at this point in time, that both Sony and MS will work on improving their respective SKU's, and that the end result will be 2 machines that are very close in terms of specs, and they have to be the same price really.

So they have to be $499, because there's no way PS5 has the edge while at the same time being $100 cheaper, and Anaconda at $399 didn't make sense when Lockhart was planned.

Of course Lockhart was discarded at the end of 2018 so it could be that after that they made Anaconda less powerful and cheaper, from $499 to $399....but that was semi-debunked by some people, right?

So the safest bet seems to be $499, although I can't really totally commit to it, I still feel $399 is not out of the picture

For me that's the important piece of the puzzle that is missing, because we know both of the will be almos identical, just at what level is the question.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
4,693
I don't think a reference to access timing directly suggests DRAM vs SRAM. There's various things that affect access time.

On SRAM vs DRAM, I guess taking the patents' explanations at face value and trying to keep it simple:

SRAM might be faster/'better' for access to low-write, high-read data
DRAM might be faster/'better' for access to high-write, low-read data (at least vs a cache-miss in a SRAM setup)

The patent makes the suggestion that you might want to optimise for the former scenario in a games machine more than the latter, that it would be more advantageous to optimise for read-access to game asset data.

DRAM would I guess, also potentially have more space for cached data, at least depending on the size of your address lookup tables in use. Although there might be nothing to stop an implementation using SRAM for address lookup and block operation data, and a smaller-than-typical amount of DRAM on the side just for caching. SRAM has some other side advantages too - namely the ability to use it at a lower power-cost for standby mode operations.

As always, I wouldn't conclude for sure what the setup in either machine actually is at this point.
this would fit with MS talking about their SSD as virtual ram while cerny is talking about the SSD as a means of eliminating loading and streaming assets as fast as possible.
basically MS are planning to use the SSD as an actual additional ram which they write to a lot, while the SSD based off sony's patents will mostly read data very fast.
wonder what will developers favor more.
i do fear that writing to the SSD that much might increase the likelyhood of a SSD fault.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,353
Matt only said that to calm the storm

#TeamReiner
I still think it is pretty funny how things instantly settled down the moment he said that lol.

You had folk who have never posted in these threads show up once that 'PS5 is stronger' thing started making rounds. Matt says he feels Next Box will be stronger? They gone. ⚰
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
4,693
Which brings us back to the need to copy game data between storage devices which means that a big SSD won't be a good solution.
why not? with a big SSD you can just have the OS swap out the games that were not used for the longest time, just save the startup date of all game applications within the SSD.

also means that you dont need to wait for a loading of HDD to SSD the next time you open the game, and we know sony are going for eliminating loading screens as part of the marketing thanks to jason schreier.
 

dgrdsv

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Oct 25, 2017
2,546
Msk / SPb, Russia
why not? with a big SSD you can just have the OS swap out the games that were not used for the longest time, just save the startup date of all game applications within the SSD.

also means that you dont need to wait for a loading of HDD to SSD the next time you open the game, and we know sony are going for eliminating loading screens as part of the marketing thanks to jason schreier.
This is essentially what I was suggesting a couple of pages back. But people here seem to think that a 1TB+ ultrafast SSD would be cheaper than a smaller one and an upgradeable HDD.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
4,693
This is essentially what I was suggesting a couple of pages back. But people here seem to think that a 1TB+ ultrafast SSD would be cheaper than a smaller one and an upgradeable HDD.
i do think they will go with a singular SSD though, just have an external spot to insert external drive and then apply my suggestion in the case that the SSD is full.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,269
I still think it is pretty funny how things instantly settled down the moment he said that lol.

You had folk who have never posted in these threads show up once that 'PS5 is stronger' thing started making rounds. Matt says he feels Next Box will be stronger? They gone. ⚰
Perhaps “they gone” because the thread had turned into a “why can’t we just talk about Sony” or “it was better just talking about Sony” whinefest.

Yeah the thread is less of a battleground, because the only people left standing are predominantly Sony guys. For better or worse. I do think that the next gen speculation threads should be separated by platform to lessen the war zone.

Please don’t take my comment as a dig, I am just stating the obvious.

Let the dogpiling commence. Lol
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,318
this would fit with MS talking about their SSD as virtual ram while cerny is talking about the SSD as a means of eliminating loading and streaming assets as fast as possible.
basically MS are planning to use the SSD as an actual additional ram which they write to a lot
I really don't think that's envisaged - using storage for working-set (high write) memory. Your performance would tank vs local system memory. When MS - or anyone - talks about virtual RAM, they're talking about paging in and out data, to/from working memory rather than using the storage directly. Given how much asset data, data in memory, is actually static, I don't know if makes sense to prioritise page-out (write) over page-in (read).

A 'standard' SSD will improve both these things anyway. But if we're talking about which you might want to optimise further, for a virtual RAM or more explicit streaming/managed scenario or whatever, I'm not sure I'd put writes over reads. If they diverge on DRAM vs SRAM or whatever, I think it'll just be because one was happy enough with a standard-ish approach and one wanted to trade off further in favour of reads.
 

BreakAtmo

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Nov 12, 2017
3,445
why not? with a big SSD you can just have the OS swap out the games that were not used for the longest time, just save the startup date of all game applications within the SSD.

also means that you dont need to wait for a loading of HDD to SSD the next time you open the game, and we know sony are going for eliminating loading screens as part of the marketing thanks to jason schreier.
Yep. The OS would just silently remove the least-recently-played game once the SSD was like 900GB full (either deleting it or moving it to your external HDD). Then you'd just have to transfer or download it later. Simple, and it would be a while before you had to really worry about that, especially if you chose to run older BC games from the HDD (if possible).
 

cjn83

Member
Jul 25, 2018
97
The heretic unity tech demo and the unreal rebirth open world demo are both using cards with 8gb vram. One looks straight up cgi. The other looks photorealistic.

There are dozens of unreal engine demos out there both open world and indoir areas that look photorealistic.

The unity open world mega city demo is also running on 8gb cards.

This demo is running on a 2080ti which is a 11gb card. Native 4k. Highest settings.
Yeah. And with framerates dipping in to the teens whenever the sky isn't there to help him.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
3,445
This is essentially what I was suggesting a couple of pages back. But people here seem to think that a 1TB+ ultrafast SSD would be cheaper than a smaller one and an upgradeable HDD.
I do think it would be, actually. If we start from the position of having a 256GB SSD and choose which setup to go with, it makes sense to me that simply increasing the density of the SSD you already have would be cheaper than adding an entirely new, comparatively large and complicated component with failure-prone moving parts. Especially if SSDs continue to shrink in price while HDDs stand still as fewer people and companies buy them.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
4,693
I really don't think that's envisaged - using storage for working-set (high write) memory. Your performance would tank vs local system memory. When MS - or anyone - talks about virtual RAM, they're talking about paging in and out data, to/from working memory rather than using the storage directly. Given how much asset data, data in memory, is actually static, I don't know if makes sense to prioritise page-out (write) over page-in (read).

A 'standard' SSD will improve both these things anyway. But if we're talking about which you might want to optimise further, for a virtual RAM or more explicit streaming/managed scenario or whatever, I'm not sure I'd put writes over reads.
i agree on that, having high reads seem more important, and if we are really getting ~5GB/s read speed, the loadingless future sony wants might be a reality with only 4 seconds needed to fill the memory, all sounds really exciting.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,353
You tinker!

I like your spirit Drifting but even you would agree a 2019 release would be more likely than that.

But hey, dreams are good....
I think PS3 will be a E3 megaton announcement but I definitely don't think they will have the entire PS library on PS5. I'm definitely just dreaming with that.

Perhaps “they gone” because the thread had turned into a “why can’t we just talk about Sony” or “it was better just talking about Sony” whinefest.

Yeah the thread is less of a battleground, because the only people left standing are predominantly Sony guys. For better or worse. I do think that the next gen speculation threads should be separated by platform to lessen the war zone.

Please don’t take my comment as a dig, I am just stating the obvious.

Let the dogpiling commence. Lol
Nah, but I can respect your interpretation. 🙏🏾
 

Colbert

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,886
Germany
Perhaps “they gone” because the thread had turned into a “why can’t we just talk about Sony” or “it was better just talking about Sony” whinefest.

Yeah the thread is less of a battleground, because the only people left standing are predominantly Sony guys. For better or worse. I do think that the next gen speculation threads should be separated by platform to lessen the war zone.

Please don’t take my comment as a dig, I am just stating the obvious.

Let the dogpiling commence. Lol
The outcome would be the same as some wouldn't able to resist to console warring in the "other" thread. It is us members that make threads bad, not the topic of a thread!

I personally think it was a wise decision to put both console speculations together as they share so many design principles this time. It was not obvious from the beginning but it is obvious now.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,155
Barcelona Spain
This is essentially what I was suggesting a couple of pages back. But people here seem to think that a 1TB+ ultrafast SSD would be cheaper than a smaller one and an upgradeable HDD.
I just say that the solution inside the patent is expensive to be used in addition with a HDD. It means a second CPU, an hardware decompressor, a 256 GB SSD. The second CPU and hardware decompressor are probably a big part of the extra cost. They even gives some example explaining the speed of the NAND Flash depends of the power of the CPU and hardware decompressor. The NAND itself is some quad channel NAND, not 8 channels like in PCIE4 PC SSD.

HDD + SSD advantage is the storage size. Disadvantage is loading the first launch of a game. I don't think the speed in loading can be as high as the custom SSD. Custom SSD can stream compressed data.

The disadvantage of custom SSD is storage size and means usage of an external HDD or SSD for storage.
 
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Mecha Meister

Mecha Meister

Member
Oct 25, 2017
545
So, on the topic of the next OT. Does anyone else want to take over? Otherwise I wouldn't mind making OT6.

Does anyone have any new thread title suggestions?
 

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
2,502
I think PS3 will be a E3 megaton announcement but I definitely don't think they will have the entire PS library on PS5. I'm definitely just dreaming with that
Out of all the options PS3 is the least likely for me. Microsoft have shown just how much time, effort and cost it takes to do BC and can't see Sony putting in that kind of effort. I can only see them continue with hand picked remakes/remasters until there is evidence otherwise.
 

modiz

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Oct 8, 2018
4,693
Out of all the options PS3 is the least likely for me. Microsoft have shown just how much time, effort and cost it takes to do BC and can't see Sony putting in that kind of effort. I can only see them continue with hand picked remakes/remasters until there is evidence otherwise.
sony wont do it like MS, they will just use an emulator and say that it may or may not work, the games they got verified as working and fully licensed will be sold on the store.
 
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