Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA

What do you think could be the memory setup of your preferred console, or one of the new consoles?


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Pheonix

Member
Dec 14, 2018
1,358
St Kitts
What will be interesting is the capacity and whether or not external drives will be supported. If a game is designed for a super fast SSD how will a game running off the external work? Do you have to swap it with a game on the internal SSD to play it? Or do you just get current gen load times and LOD pop-in?

Edit: never mind, saw the discussion around this already.
My guess is that you would have to swap it. That's the only way it can really work.
 

Rylen

Member
Feb 5, 2019
202
Settings:
2050 MHz
1055mv
890 memory

Results:
1970 MHz
169 Peak Watts
20,067 Firestrike

PS
Stock Settings Power Draw shows 210+ Watts in Wattman


 

ppn7

Member
May 4, 2019
135
Next gen console will never exceed 200w. So now you need a 5700XT undervolted and underclocked.
CPU at 3.3ghz will consume 45W. Expect Navi at 125W maximum. So 1,6Ghz at maximum. Maybe less if you add some CU
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
5,305
Next gen console will never exceed 200w. So now you need a 5700XT undervolted and underclocked.
CPU at 3.3ghz will consume 45W. Expect Navi at 125W maximum. So 1,6Ghz at maximum. Maybe less if you add some CU
You can get to 35w for the cpu with undervolting and downclocking to 3.2ghz
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
5,305
I hope they will do an event, but without any showcase (it's to early to announce PlayStation 5 and it would be too boring to only show PlayStation 4 games). Maybe a special State of Play with release dates for The Last of Us Part II and Ghost of Tsushima.
they can have a PSX with more than enough PS4 content.
TLOU2 and Ghost of Tsushima big showcases (date reveal for ghost, i expect TLOU2's date to be revealed before PSX), avengers gameplay demo, FFVIIR trailer, nioh 2 trailer, last unannounced PS4 game reveal, other third parties in 2020, Playstation meeting teaser with a "see the future of playstation on february something 2020", sounds like a very solid PSX even if only one FP announcement.
 

Alandring

Member
Feb 2, 2018
1,325
Switzerland
they can have a PSX with more than enough PS4 content.
TLOU2 and Ghost of Tsushima big showcases (date reveal for ghost, i expect TLOU2's date to be revealed before PSX), avengers gameplay demo, FFVIIR trailer, nioh 2 trailer, last unannounced PS4 game reveal, other third parties in 2020, Playstation meeting teaser with a "see the future of playstation on february something 2020", sounds like a very solid PSX even if only one FP announcement.
They could have done this at E3, but they thought it wasn't worth it. Why would it be different at PSX?
 

Blizzje

Member
Jul 7, 2018
16
Next gen console will never exceed 200w. So now you need a 5700XT undervolted and underclocked.
CPU at 3.3ghz will consume 45W. Expect Navi at 125W maximum. So 1,6Ghz at maximum. Maybe less if you add some CU
What would this mean for the GPU? In between 5700 and 5700 XT? Care to guess TFLOPS?
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
5,305
What would this mean for the GPU? In between 5700 and 5700 XT? Care to guess TFLOPS?
1.6Ghz at 5700XT size of 40CU is 8.2TF, if you were to increase the CU count to 44 that would be 9TF, but i think we will have a higher clock thna he is expecting, something between 1700 and 1800mhz or 8.7TF and 9.2TF.

well whatever, teraflops mean shit anyways.
 

Bits N Pieces

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,319
Scotland
The value proposition that Game Pass will offer at the launch of next gen is going to be insane! All first party titles day and date with the service and who knows what other surprises they are able to add during the launch window.

For the first time ever, I dont need to worry about budgeting my spend on games when I buy the console at launch.

Game changer :)
 

Gamer17

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,572
The value proposition that Game Pass will offer at the launch of next gen is going to be insane! All first party titles day and date with the service and who knows what other surprises they are able to add during the launch window.

For the first time ever, I dont need to worry about budgeting my spend on games when I buy the console at launch.

Game changer :)
Soon like of square enix and bethesda will have their own subscription store(as they have said so) and will remove their content from other streaming services .so MS will be left with first party and bunch of Indies. It's an amazing value for MS first party but other than that no one buys a 500$ console to go home and play Indies .so nothing imo has changed people still have to buy cod or destiny or fifa or whatever . Ofcourse all my opinion .
 
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Bits N Pieces

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,319
Scotland
Soon like of square enix and bethesda will have their own streaming store(as they have said so) and will remove their content from other streaming services .so MS will be left with first party and bunch of Indies. It's an amazing value for MS first party but other than that no one buys a 500$ console to go home and play Indies .so nothing imo has changed people still have to buy cod or destiny or fifa or whatever . Ofcourse all my opinion .
Yip, you've nailed it. Game Pass will close down in 2021 cause there's no games on it apart from Xbox and indies. By the way do you have a link to where SE and Bethesda have announced there own subscription services?
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,383
Soon like of square enix and bethesda will have their own streaming store(as they have said so) and will remove their content from other streaming services .so MS will be left with first party and bunch of Indies. It's an amazing value for MS first party but other than that no one buys a 500$ console to go home and play Indies .so nothing imo has changed people still have to buy cod or destiny or fifa or whatever . Ofcourse all my opinion .
You know that there are a lot of big publishers with games on Game Pass. They are there because it makes financial sense, and as long as the incentive is there to earn money after sales have dropped, they will continue making their way into that platform.
 

Gamer17

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,572
Yip, you've nailed it. Game Pass will close down in 2021 cause there's no games on it apart from Xbox and indies. By the way do you have a link to where SE and Bethesda have announced there own subscription services?

2 weeks ago SE said they r considering subscription for their games.anyways we shall see how it unfolds
 

sncvsrtoip

Member
Apr 18, 2019
868
Xbox devkit specs from polish forum:
CPU: Custom Zen 2 CPU / 12c/12t, 2.5GHz no turbo
RAM: 24GB GDDR6 448 GB/s (20GB available for games)
GPU: Custom Navi GPU - 44CU / Clock: 2000MHz
FPU: 4CU
SSD: 1TB
API: Next Generation LL API

Doesn't sound too reliably but still "leak" ;)
 

Bits N Pieces

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,319
Scotland

2 weeks ago SE said they r considering subscription for their games.anyways we shall see how it unfolds
I wouldn't say that is confirmed, SE say they are exploring possibilities but know the budget and resources setting something like get up would be a huge investment.

As Game Pass grows and gets more subscribers it is only going to get better, with twenty plus first party teams feeding in to it and whoever else they acquire the value proposition will just grow and grow.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
5,305
Xbox devkit specs from polish forum:
CPU: Custom Zen 2 CPU / 12c/12t, 2.5GHz no turbo
RAM: 24GB GDDR6 448 GB/s (20GB available for games)
GPU: Custom Navi GPU - 44CU / Clock: 2000MHz
FPU: 4CU
SSD: 1TB
API: Next Generation LL API

Doesn't sound too reliably but still "leak" ;)
it wont be 12 core because MS said 4x faster than X1X, which should be no problem on 8 core, and doing a different core count between dev kit and console sounds like a bad idea.
still though, fun to see easily debunked dev kits leaks coming back now :) it was too boring lately.
 

Gamer17

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,572
I wouldn't say that is confirmed, SE say they are exploring possibilities but know the budget and resources setting something like get up would be a huge investment.

As Game Pass grows and gets more subscribers it is only going to get better, with twenty plus first party teams feeding in to it and whoever else they acquire the value proposition will just grow and grow.
Well we have 2 different view points . I feel all big publisher will want subscription based model (not necessarily streaming
Therefore not really expensive )and that's why content will become scarce year after year .
I feel no one says let me buy 500 $ new Xbox to go home and play Indies or old games(except for new first party which is a great value for that)

Anyways let's not derail this thread and stay on topic .

So 3.2ghz of Gonzalo is now proven to have merit ??interesting
 

ppn7

Member
May 4, 2019
135
What about 56 CU at 1.6 GHz ?
Adding CU will increase the size of the DIE, and so the consumption TDP. We are not sure if Navi can get more CU because RDNA is a new architecture. But I think it’s possible. It depend on the fact that AMD want more or less profit on their GPU. And if Sony can sell at a loss.

You can get to 35w for the cpu with undervolting and downclocking to 3.2ghz
Probably but can all these CPUs can achieve this voltage ? If there is to many % of CPU that can’t they will not play with low voltage and stability of the system.
What would this mean for the GPU? In between 5700 and 5700 XT? Care to guess TFLOPS?
5700 equivalent with RT for 399$ is the most achievable case I think. Expect more is a dream, I even doubt we can get hardware RT at this cost. Maybe 5700 level with RT at 449 or 499$
1.6Ghz at 5700XT size of 40CU is 8.2TF, if you were to increase the CU count to 44 that would be 9TF, but i think we will have a higher clock thna he is expecting, something between 1700 and 1800mhz or 8.7TF and 9.2TF.

well whatever, teraflops mean shit anyways.
I hope for a good upscaling method. I expect more than teraflops or what else. And i hope even 3rd party games will be easy to optimize. Not only those AAA fisrt party games.
If we can achieve better performance on console because of optimization for third party games, maybe I will consider to buy not day one but very quickly a next gen console after release. If it’s not the case, I’ll wait for a Slim version and use it for first party games like I did this year by buying a PS4 slim
 

sncvsrtoip

Member
Apr 18, 2019
868
it wont be 12 core because MS said 4x faster than X1X, which should be no problem on 8 core, and doing a different core count between dev kit and console sounds like a bad idea.
still though, fun to see easily debunked dev kits leaks coming back now :) it was too boring lately.
On paper 4x jaguar 2.3ghz is 8c 4.6ghz zen 2 and we will not get 4.6ghz on consoles ;)
 

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
2,650
Anyone have any idea how much die space RT could take up? I was looking at the Zen 2 chiplet die shot and couldn't help but notice just how much die space the SRAM takes up and thinking halve that for the consoles and there's the room for HW RT?
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
5,305
Anyone have any idea how much die space RT could take up? I was looking at the Zen 2 chiplet die shot and couldn't help but notice just how much die space the SRAM takes up and thinking halve that for the consoles and there's the room for HW RT?
well, considering we have no idea what is AMD's ray tracing implementation, no one can say really.
 

Bits N Pieces

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,319
Scotland
Well we have 2 different view points . I feel all big publisher will want subscription based model (not necessarily streaming
Therefore not really expensive )and that's why content will become scarce year after year .
I feel no one says let me buy 500 $ new Xbox to go home and play Indies or old games(except for new first party which is a great value for that)

Anyways let's not derail this thread and stay on topic .

So 3.2ghz of Gonzalo is now proven to have merit ??interesting
It's a strategy for next gen, of course it's relevant to this thread and of course everyone wants there own subscription model, the hard bit is actually doing it. And I was only quoting SE in the link you provided who spoke about the potentially prohibitive cost factors in setting up a subscription service.

I think the people who have Game Pass just now can see how valuable a service it can be, the people who have never subscribed to it, less so.
 

Alandring

Member
Feb 2, 2018
1,325
Switzerland
Well we have 2 different view points . I feel all big publisher will want subscription based model (not necessarily streaming
Therefore not really expensive )and that's why content will become scarce year after year .
I feel no one says let me buy 500 $ new Xbox to go home and play Indies or old games(except for new first party which is a great value for that)

Anyways let's not derail this thread and stay on topic .
I think it's absolutely on topic, because subscriptions (in streaming or not) will be a huge part of next-gen. But even if I mostly agree with you, it isn't true for all big publishers:
GamesBeat: Do you think we’ll reach subscription fatigue soon?

Zelnick:
It’s a great question. I think the average American household wants to subscribe to two to three entertainment properties at a time, of all sorts. There will be no winner takes all, and a bunch of losers, in linear programming as well as interactive. Interactive programming isn’t particularly well-suited to a subscription, because you typically only play a couple of titles at a time, and you play them for a long time. I’m not sure what subscriptions bring. But we’ll see, because obviously some people are going to launch them, and Game Pass is already out there.
[...]
I indicated earlier that it’s not clear subscriptions even make sense for interactive entertainment.
About Square Enix, I think there subscription would mostly be for legacy content. A subscription service where you can play all previous Final Fantasy games and all Tomb Raider games makes more sense than a subscription service where you can play day one Avengers.

At a cheap price (5$ max), a subscription service which allow you to play all Square Enix games released more than a year ago would do incredibly well.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
526
Seattle
Whether it's PSX or just a special State of Play episode, I do expect that Sony will talk about more than just PS4 toward the end of the year. I expect a late December showcase for Last of Us Part II and Ghost of Tsushima – alongside the promise that these games you buy early in 2020 for PS4 will feature upgraded visuals when the PS5 launches, with just a brief tease of what that's going to look like. What's the downside? It's a much saner strategy than emphasizing the hardware when there's nothing available for another eleven months.
 

RevengeTaken

Member
Aug 12, 2018
1,550
Powering Next-Gen: Variable Rate Shading

I think it will be interesting to point towards certain tech that is likely to play a pivotal role with next-gen consoles and games overall.
Ray tracing is usually seen as the big one but I'd like to shine a light on a lesser known move forward that all the big players are investing in called Variable Rate Shading.
So, what is VRS? Basically, it is a way to reduce the load of a high resolution image (4K) by allowing the dev to shade different parts of the full image at different levels of accuracy / quality.
Here is a useful picture showing an example for one form of VRS:
https://developer.nvidia.com/sites/default/files/akamai/VRWorks/images/vrs_grids_car.jpg
Typically, the full 4K image will be shaded at the same rate, which is actually a waste of resources since depending on the situation you won't be able to appreciate if a part of the image is at full quality or not, like darkened areas or in this case fast moving elements. With VRS, devs can break down the image and assign the pixels different levels of quality depending on need.
In the image above, slow or more fixed elements like the car and what's ahead are shaded at an increased rate for 1:1 accuracy while other parts of the image, parts that aren't at focus, will be rushing past your view quickly and maybe will have motion blur applied to it (like trackside detail), are shaded at reduced rates (to a max of 4:4 courseness). By doing it like this, you can increase performance with little impact on image quality.
Indeed, Fireaxis toyed with VRS in 4K for their Civilization game and saw framerates jump 14 to 20 percent. Quite a big gain for something you won't be to tell apart from a typical 4K image fully shaded at the same rate. And that's just a first pass at it with Microsoft's API supported VRS. When games get built around it and devs are more comfortable with the new feature, the results will only get better.
Right now, the major API forces are in on it including DirectX, OpenGL and Vulkan. On the hardware front, only Nvidia and their Turing arch supports VRS. AMD's Navi currently does not support it but it is easy to see them following suit with GPUs next year, especially since they already have a patent on VRS:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2019/0066371.html
Even intel will support it in their upcoming Ice Lake products. As such, it would not be surprising to see Sony and Microsoft feature VRS for their next-gen systems.
After all, despite it not making the headlines like ray tracing, it's clear VRS has a place in moving forward the battle that is constantly waged by devs in the graphics / performance tradeoff. And for Sony and MS (and us), any effective way to lessen the burden of 4K gaming is welcome.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
5,305
Powering Next-Gen: Variable Rate Shading

I think it will be interesting to point towards certain tech that is likely to play a pivotal role with next-gen consoles and games overall.
Ray tracing is usually seen as the big one but I'd like to shine a light on a lesser known move forward that all the big players are investing in called Variable Rate Shading.
So, what is VRS? Basically, it is a way to reduce the load of a high resolution image (4K) by allowing the dev to shade different parts of the full image at different levels of accuracy / quality.
Here is a useful picture showing an example for one form of VRS:
https://developer.nvidia.com/sites/default/files/akamai/VRWorks/images/vrs_grids_car.jpg
Typically, the full 4K image will be shaded at the same rate, which is actually a waste of resources since depending on the situation you won't be able to appreciate if a part of the image is at full quality or not, like darkened areas or in this case fast moving elements. With VRS, devs can break down the image and assign the pixels different levels of quality depending on need.
In the image above, slow or more fixed elements like the car and what's ahead are shaded at an increased rate for 1:1 accuracy while other parts of the image, parts that aren't at focus, will be rushing past your view quickly and maybe will have motion blur applied to it (like trackside detail), are shaded at reduced rates (to a max of 4:4 courseness). By doing it like this, you can increase performance with little impact on image quality.
Indeed, Fireaxis toyed with VRS in 4K for their Civilization game and saw framerates jump 14 to 20 percent. Quite a big gain for something you won't be to tell apart from a typical 4K image fully shaded at the same rate. And that's just a first pass at it with Microsoft's API supported VRS. When games get built around it and devs are more comfortable with the new feature, the results will only get better.
Right now, the major API forces are in on it including DirectX, OpenGL and Vulkan. On the hardware front, only Nvidia and their Turing arch supports VRS. AMD's Navi currently does not support it but it is easy to see them following suit with GPUs next year, especially since they already have a patent on VRS:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2019/0066371.html
Even intel will support it in their upcoming Ice Lake products. As such, it would not be surprising to see Sony and Microsoft feature VRS for their next-gen systems.
After all, despite it not making the headlines like ray tracing, it's clear VRS has a place in moving forward the battle that is constantly waged by devs in the graphics / performance tradeoff. And for Sony and MS (and us), any effective way to lessen the burden of 4K gaming is welcome.
so i have heard about this tech, but did not really follow it well, is this basically "half rate animations" for shading? as in not critical parts of the image will be shaded once every 2 frames instead of every frame?
 

Carn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,557
The Netherlands
I think VR is one of the areas where VRS will be most helpful (especially combined with FoVeated rendering); I still wonder how applicable it is on big screens. Also depends on how agressive VRS is implemented.
 

Turkey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13
so i have heard about this tech, but did not really follow it well, is this basically "half rate animations" for shading? as in not critical parts of the image will be shaded once every 2 frames instead of every frame?
No it runs every frame, but think of shading as running calculations (code) against each pixel to see what affect to apply.

With vrs instead of a 1:1 pixel grid (a single pixel) developers can break an image down into larger or less granular chunks up to 4:4, they can also make these non square if for example they wanted long and thin as that suits geometry in question. This then reduces the GPU time as the single calculation can cover many pixels at once. This will be less accurate but if the items will be blurred or are not edges and not in the centre of the screen this could be perfectly sufficient.

Check something like



Not read all but it has a nice graphic that shows it better than a textual description.
 

RevengeTaken

Member
Aug 12, 2018
1,550
so i have heard about this tech, but did not really follow it well, is this basically "half rate animations" for shading? as in not critical parts of the image will be shaded once every 2 frames instead of every frame?
It basically increases rendering performance and quality by applying varying amount of processing power to different areas of the image.
Nvidia already has this feature in it's Turing cards and two games use it (Wolfenstein 2 and 3).

impressive performance boost from enabling the feature with little to no observable image quality variance.

edit: beaten :)
 

ppn7

Member
May 4, 2019
135
Powering Next-Gen: Variable Rate Shading

I think it will be interesting to point towards certain tech that is likely to play a pivotal role with next-gen consoles and games overall.
Ray tracing is usually seen as the big one but I'd like to shine a light on a lesser known move forward that all the big players are investing in called Variable Rate Shading.
So, what is VRS? Basically, it is a way to reduce the load of a high resolution image (4K) by allowing the dev to shade different parts of the full image at different levels of accuracy / quality.
Here is a useful picture showing an example for one form of VRS:
https://developer.nvidia.com/sites/default/files/akamai/VRWorks/images/vrs_grids_car.jpg
Typically, the full 4K image will be shaded at the same rate, which is actually a waste of resources since depending on the situation you won't be able to appreciate if a part of the image is at full quality or not, like darkened areas or in this case fast moving elements. With VRS, devs can break down the image and assign the pixels different levels of quality depending on need.
In the image above, slow or more fixed elements like the car and what's ahead are shaded at an increased rate for 1:1 accuracy while other parts of the image, parts that aren't at focus, will be rushing past your view quickly and maybe will have motion blur applied to it (like trackside detail), are shaded at reduced rates (to a max of 4:4 courseness). By doing it like this, you can increase performance with little impact on image quality.
Indeed, Fireaxis toyed with VRS in 4K for their Civilization game and saw framerates jump 14 to 20 percent. Quite a big gain for something you won't be to tell apart from a typical 4K image fully shaded at the same rate. And that's just a first pass at it with Microsoft's API supported VRS. When games get built around it and devs are more comfortable with the new feature, the results will only get better.
Right now, the major API forces are in on it including DirectX, OpenGL and Vulkan. On the hardware front, only Nvidia and their Turing arch supports VRS. AMD's Navi currently does not support it but it is easy to see them following suit with GPUs next year, especially since they already have a patent on VRS:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2019/0066371.html
Even intel will support it in their upcoming Ice Lake products. As such, it would not be surprising to see Sony and Microsoft feature VRS for their next-gen systems.
After all, despite it not making the headlines like ray tracing, it's clear VRS has a place in moving forward the battle that is constantly waged by devs in the graphics / performance tradeoff. And for Sony and MS (and us), any effective way to lessen the burden of 4K gaming is welcome.
I’ve read a article about it few days ago. And I 100% agree with this type of algorithm.
I think it could be like a DLSS method. It will reduce the quality of shader calculated by an algorithm. But only as you said when fast moving or dark scenes. Where DLSS do this at any moment. I hope we can see this soon on AMD
 

RevengeTaken

Member
Aug 12, 2018
1,550
I’ve read a article about it few days ago. And I 100% agree with this type of algorithm.
I think it could be like a DLSS method. It will reduce the quality of shader calculated by an algorithm. But only as you said when fast moving or dark scenes. Where DLSS do this at any moment. I hope we can see this soon on AMD
it seems MS gonna use this method in scarlett:

and it's gonna be one of the key features in RDNA 2
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,521
it seems MS gonna use this method in scarlett:

and it's gonna be one of the key features in RDNA 2
Yeah I’m pretty sure that VRS and raytracing will be the RDNA2 features that make it into next gen consoles.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,701
Msk / SPb, Russia
Anyone have any idea how much die space RT could take up? I was looking at the Zen 2 chiplet die shot and couldn't help but notice just how much die space the SRAM takes up and thinking halve that for the consoles and there's the room for HW RT?
It's less than 10% on Turing and AMD's solution will likely be simpler which means even less than that.

After all, despite it not making the headlines like ray tracing
VRS doesn't make it into headlines because it's a performance optimization akin to CBR and other methods of decoupled shading. And yeah it's very much required for next gen consoles because it will allow to get a lot of performance on 4K displays where there are a lot of things which can be rendered in significantly less resolution.
 

Gamer17

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,572
I think it's absolutely on topic, because subscriptions (in streaming or not) will be a huge part of next-gen. But even if I mostly agree with you, it isn't true for all big publishers:


About Square Enix, I think there subscription would mostly be for legacy content. A subscription service where you can play all previous Final Fantasy games and all Tomb Raider games makes more sense than a subscription service where you can play day one Avengers.

At a cheap price (5$ max), a subscription service which allow you to play all Square Enix games released more than a year ago would do incredibly well.
hmm thats an interesting thing T2 CEO brings forth . when is it too many subscription plans per month and how does it benefit individual in long run .

i guess we have to wait and see.

why do you think T2 hasn't done a subscription based model?due to what the CEO believes?they r huge and many would register to play RDR and GTA but i guess when your titles are still selling like hot cake at 40$ a pop u r not really interested to give people access to them for a low monthly fee
 
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