Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA

What do you think could be the memory setup of your preferred console, or one of the new consoles?


  • Total voters
    1,168

Dave.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
I remember Mark Cerny saying it would take a 7.2tf GPU to render PS4 games in native 4K. Not sure how PS5 could ever achieve 8K gaming even with older PS4 ports if it's barely any faster then the 7.2tf needed for 4K.
Cerny said 8TF, it was an AMD guy that said 7.2 (which is directly the PS4's 1.8*4, i.e. a throwaway nothing comment)

But yes the idea of an 8TF PS5 is completely absurd, given the system architect thinks all 8TF gets you is nothing more than standard PS4 games in native 4K.
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
861
What's so "magical" in using a universal bus to connect one more device to it? Especially as this device will basically use the bandwidth which was allocated to another storage device previously. Let's not over-complicate these things. It definitely can be done - it might not be done in a lean efficient manner if it's a last minute change but it will work and it will give results which will be good enough to be more or less on par with competition.
PCIe isn't a universal bus you can daisy chain more devices to. It's a point to point interconnect. An APU only has so many off chip PCIe lanes. In a console it's not going to be 28-40 lanes to be split between add in cards. It might be like 6:
2 going to I/O for USB, ethernet, wifi, bluetooth.
2 going to SATA for the optical drive.
2 going directly to an nvme SSD.

If that is the starting point and you realize the competition has invested a lot more in the SSD tech there is very little that can be done to shore up that aspect of the design. It's too late to add more PCIe lanes You can't repurpose anything that you have. Best you can do is use fast flash memory than you might have been planning to at least max out the 2 lane PCIe 4.0 spec. That could still be 25-50% as fast as the competition if Sony is using that patent.

And that's before you consider the differences possible between PS5 potentially using dedicated decompression hardware versus Scarlet's reported reliance on GPU compute for that task.
 

InRainbows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,962
If they were releasing ps5 in November 8tf is absolutely a realistic number.

I’m saying 8-10 with my expectations on the higher end. So 10tf next November.

I have no reason to doubt $399. I believe they pushed it a year due to Microsoft having 10tf (possibly) and overall losses per console at $399 in 2019.

Most people in this topic keep on battling over teraflops. There is enough of a hardware upgrade going on that even if it were 8tf the PS5 would still wow every single casual and hardcore gamer with what developers could squeeze out of 8tf.
 

cjn83

Member
Jul 25, 2018
83
If the 20+TF console discussion was ridiculous I don't even know what this 8K talk is. If there's one thing I definitely don't want from next-gen consoles it's 8K! Even 4K is a complete waste of resources on a console as far as I am concerned.
 

DanFodio

Member
May 28, 2019
123
If the 20+TF console discussion was ridiculous I don't even know what this 8K talk is. If there's one thing I definitely don't want from next-gen consoles it's 8K! Even 4K is a complete waste of resources on a console as far as I am concerned.
You're right. 8K is fine for simplistic titles. AAA games should aim for 4KCB.
 

Florin4k4

Member
Mar 18, 2019
216
For people saying that ps5 will be 8tf...I dont see how a next gen console (ps5) can only have a 2TF advantage vs a console that was released 3 years before it (Xbox one x).
 

InRainbows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,962
For people saying that ps5 will be 8tf...I dont see how a next gen console (ps5) can only have a 2TF advantage vs a console that was released 3 years before it (Xbox one x).

Its the sum of the package that makes the difference. Jaguar cpu, base Xbox one with esram issues....ect..


A developer making a game exclusively for a next gen system that has 8tf GPU would absolutely have a generational leap.

I’d like to add I think the end number will be closer to 10tf next year. I do think they were targeting a November 2019 release with a 8tf GPU. Plans changed.
 
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disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
449
For people saying that ps5 will be 8tf...I dont see how a next gen console (ps5) can only have a 2TF advantage vs a console that was released 3 years before it (Xbox one x).
1 navi Tf=3 VEGA Tfs, duh

Can you imagine marketing trying to explain that navi and vega/polaris Tfs are different even though they're both called the same thing?


Speaking of which, when vega was announced with an increase in IPC over polaris, did people also compare vega Tf as 1.xx polaris Tf?

Good read about IPC and why Tf across different architectures/brands doesn't really matter.


The second and far worse misconception is about IPC and GPU frequency. I see a lot of posts where IPC is computed as GPU performance per clock in a given workload (1st misconception, it's acceptable, not big deal) and compared across different architectures running at completely different frequency. Invariably the higher clocked GPU shows lower "IPC" and people boldly claim "IPC went down.. This is bad, company X sucks, etc". *Too bad this comparison is completely and utterly meaningless because IPC is almost always inversely proportional to frequency.* This is really straightforward to understand since memories don't scale up like cores do, and as we increase core frequency the likelihood of our cores (and other GPU units) starving for data and stalling increases (ergo IPC goes down..).
I've said it a couple weeks ago based on some light reading/watching. If IPC on navi went up and power consumption also improved, that means clocks are likely down noticeably as that's the easiest way to both gain IPC and cut power consumption. Meaning those 1.8Ghz clock some people are expecting probably aren't likely.
 

cjn83

Member
Jul 25, 2018
83
Its the sum of the package that makes the difference. Jaguar cpu, base Xbox one with esram issues....ect..


A developer making a game exclusively for a next gen system that has 8tf GPU would absolutely have a generational leap.

I’d like to add I think the end number will be closer to 10tf next year. I do think they were targeting a November 2019 release with a 8tf GPU. Plans changed.
I would like this post if I could. My expectation is on 8TF, but my gut feeling is also that it'll be higher - around 10. Still, this would mean we'll get a substantially better GPU relative to the market offering than what went in to the PS4.
 

Fastidioso

Member
Nov 3, 2017
2,455
1 navi Tf=3 VEGA Tfs, duh

Can you imagine marketing trying to explain that navi and vega/polaris Tfs are different even though they're both called the same thing?


Speaking of which, when vega was announced with an increase in IPC over polaris, did people also compare vega Tf as 1.xx polaris Tf?

Good read about IPC and why Tf across different architectures/brands doesn't really matter.




I've said it a couple weeks ago based on some light reading/watching. If IPC on navi went up and power consumption also improved, that means clocks are likely down noticeably as that's the easiest way to both gain IPC and cut power. Meaning those 1.8Ghz clock some people are expecting probably aren't happening.
1TF Navi could be max the equivalent of 1,5TF of Vega and it's quite optimistic substain it because it's the same range of the Nvidia TF...so whatever will means that 9TF on Navi it's not exactly something to be particularly excited in 2020. Personally I doubt ps5 will use the equivalent of Navi specs on pc in 2019 especially considered they delayed the ps5 release an year later. Doesn’t make sense to me.
 
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Trieu

Member
Feb 22, 2019
554
We are exactly 2 days away from this post when Microsoft officially kicks of Their E3 2019.

Just two more days folks, hold all heated arguments till then, we can make it.
Yeah I am still somewhat shocked that it is already E3 time again.

But I am certain the TFLOP guessing will continue even after the conference on Sunday, because they probably won't tell us exactly.
 

Noctis114

Member
Jan 25, 2019
680
Yeah I am still somewhat shocked that it is already E3 time again.

But I am certain the TFLOP guessing will continue even after the conference on Sunday, because they probably won't tell us exactly.
But what if they do? Scorpio style?

The chaos in the thread will reach nuclear levels regardless of what TF count the anaconda or the lockhart have LOL.

Will be fun too watch of course.
 

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
861
I've said it a couple weeks ago based on some light reading/watching. If IPC on navi went up and power consumption also improved, that means clocks are likely down noticeably as that's the easiest way to both gain IPC and cut power. Meaning those 1.8Ghz clock some people are expecting probably aren't happening.
1: We already know Navi is optimized for higher clock speeds per AMD.
2: Being more efficient per clock is not down SOLELY to literal "instructions per clock". There are lots of things in a GPU that could reduce wasted time that include things like better scheduling and memory access.
3. Your hidden premise assumes "all other things being equal" when we know that is obviously not the case. We're talking about a new architecture and a new process node.
 

RevengeTaken

Member
Aug 12, 2018
1,282
Y
Its the sum of the package that makes the difference. Jaguar cpu, base Xbox one with esram issues....ect..


A developer making a game exclusively for a next gen system that has 8tf GPU would absolutely have a generational leap.

I’d like to add I think the end number will be closer to 10tf next year. I do think they were targeting a November 2019 release with a 8tf GPU. Plans changed.
you would absolutely have generation leap with 8tf gpu only if the target is 1080p/30fps for next gen!
 
Nov 12, 2017
2,877
1 navi Tf=3 VEGA Tfs, duh

Can you imagine marketing trying to explain that navi and vega/polaris Tfs are different even though they're both called the same thing?


Speaking of which, when vega was announced with an increase in IPC over polaris, did people also compare vega Tf as 1.xx polaris Tf?

Good read about IPC and why Tf across different architectures/brands doesn't really matter.




I've said it a couple weeks ago based on some light reading/watching. If IPC on navi went up and power consumption also improved, that means clocks are likely down noticeably as that's the easiest way to both gain IPC and cut power consumption. Meaning those 1.8Ghz clock some people are expecting probably aren't likely.
No..
1 Navi TF is 1.25 vega tf
 

Trieu

Member
Feb 22, 2019
554
But what if they do? Scorpio style?

The chaos in the thread will reach nuclear levels regardless of what TF count the anaconda or the lockhart have LOL.

Will be fun too watch of course.
I would guess that it is too far out (late 2020 I assume) for them to share specific details on the actual hardware and frequencies. We probably get rough estimates though
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
449
1TF Navi could be max the equivalent of 1,5TF of Vega and it's quite optimistic substain it because it's the same range of the Nvidia TF...so whatever will means that 9TF on Navi it's not exactly something to be particularly excited in 2020. Personally I doubt ps5 will use the equivalent of Navi specs on pc in 2019 especially considered they delayed the ps5 release an year later. Doesn’t make sense to me.
It's 1.25x ipc and 1.5x ppw compared to 14nm Vega iirc. I was expecting 2019 navi chips but down clocked and undervolted compared to desktop parts. I doubt 2020 big boy navi is likely.

No..
1 Navi TF is 1.25 vega tf
I thought the "duh" gave away the sarcasm. Next time I'll just /s and not have any fun.
 

Florin4k4

Member
Mar 18, 2019
216
Its the sum of the package that makes the difference. Jaguar cpu, base Xbox one with esram issues....ect..


A developer making a game exclusively for a next gen system that has 8tf GPU would absolutely have a generational leap.

I’d like to add I think the end number will be closer to 10tf next year. I do think they were targeting a November 2019 release with a 8tf GPU. Plans changed.
I’m not saying 8TF isnt “enough”. Of course games would look amazing. I’m just saying that given the 3 year gap and newer tech, i expect a bigger Jump (10+ TF)
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,885
Just dropping in to say the last page was a hoot. Imagine trying that hard to convince others you know what you're talking about. 🍵

-

Anyway, AMD conference almost here!
 
Colbert's HDD vs SSD vs NVME Speed Comparison: Part 2

Colbert

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,618
Germany
About SSD speeds:

Because of a comment of chris 1515 that my first speed test for drives wasn't addressing bigger data block sizes (less blocks in an allocation table) I was looking for a tool that was able to allow me to alter those block sizes for the speed tests.

I now was able to run a couple of tests with the same NVMe, SSD and HDD as the first one and the diagram below shows you the results:

Testsystem:
Motherboard: MSI B450 Tomahawk | CPU: AMD R7 2700X @ stock | Memory: 32GB DDR4-3000Mhz | GPU: MSI RX Vega 56 Airboost OC watercooled by a Eiswolf GPX Pro 120 | Storage Drives: NVMe = Samsung 970 EVO 500GB (4x PCIe Gen3), SSD = SanDisk Ultra 2TB (SATA3), HDD = Seagate Barracuda 4TB 7200rpm (SATA3)



You can see that a normal SSD stagnates way earlier in its speed and a SSD is 2.4 times faster than my HDD at a maximum.
Different story with a NVMe. There is already a triple the performance beginning with a 32KB block size (3.6 times faster than my HDD). This goes up to 12.7 times faster than my HDD at a 2MB block size.

While the very big block sizes are good for the speed of the system, the bigger they are the more space will allocated for smaller files. Which means you need to find a balance between wasting storage space and speed.

Conclusion:
To reach gains like showed in the PS5 demo you will probably need a storage implementation around 2000 MB/s. For me personally I would see the sweet spot of a data block at 256KB without knowing the typical files sizes on a console.

Testmethod:
Random Reads with 1 thread and 1 queue from a 1GB file!
 
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Noctis114

Member
Jan 25, 2019
680
Anyone else think that the poll should've been SSD themed instead of memory setup based on the last couple of pages.
 

Sowrong

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,275
That leak, was already debunked by both of the xbox insiders that tend to post here. Why are people bringing it up again?
 

Bunzy

Member
Nov 1, 2018
451
JahIthBer said:
Microsoft's market cap is a trillion dollars my friends, Sony's is 60 billion, if wants MS wants to make it difficult for Sony & make it so they can't compete at their prices, they will.
This is not a good thing though, something needs to be done about these mega corps but i won't get political.


And yet they never have. So no they won't.

Yeah so the thing is...Sony is a much smaller company, however PlayStation segment is pretty much driving the organization right now. Sony is completely fine throwing money at their golden goose. They made more money last year on PS4 then almost the entire lifespan of ps2.

On the other hand the Xbox division doesn’t drive Microsoft and is more like the little experiment that really hasn’t produced big returns yet. Microsoft won’t just blindly throw money at xbox and they are in no way in a power position with Sony.
 

Lokimaster

Member
May 12, 2019
92
JahIthBer said:
Microsoft's market cap is a trillion dollars my friends, Sony's is 60 billion, if wants MS wants to make it difficult for Sony & make it so they can't compete at their prices, they will.
This is not a good thing though, something needs to be done about these mega corps but i won't get political.





Yeah so the thing is...Sony is a much smaller company, however PlayStation segment is pretty much driving the organization right now. Sony is completely fine throwing money at their golden goose. They made more money last year on PS4 then almost the entire lifespan of ps2.

On the other hand the Xbox division doesn’t drive Microsoft and is more like the little experiment that really hasn’t produced big returns yet. Microsoft won’t just blindly throw money at xbox and they are in no way in a power position with Sony.

The thing that you don't understand is that MS money does not = Xbox money. The xbox division has their own budget that they have to abide to. The playstation division itself makes more money than the xbox division does.