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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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It is, as per MS's official PR.
I think DF just got caught up in their speculation and forgot.
I think the biggest problem with the PS3 was that the 512MB of RAM was split into two pools of 256MB so you pretty much only had access to half the ram xbox 360 games had.
Would the SSDs help with mitigate lower RAM? IIRC, MS said they have something like 4 Gbps but Sony's patents were for 8Gbps. That should help them fill up the RAM extremely fast. Of course next gen games will look a lot better than current gen games and will use mega textures and a lot more NPC models. Would 8GB be enough for realistic looking open world games that look like this AND have NPCs on screen at once?
Ah, thanks. That gives some wiggle room... although not the full whack for gameplay work that the new processor might allow.
On the face of it, the more bandwidth you have to storage, the less you should need to keep 'hot' in memory, and the more you might possibly be able to defer to on-demand loading.
Oh man, it's so hard to keep up with this thread during E3 AND AMD's full Navi reveal :)
I'm not sure if it was brought up, but I'm pretty sure both Flight Simulator and Halo Infinite used ray tracing in their trailers.
* A very noisy reflection on a curvy surface:
* A very noisy reflection of the chief on the wall:
In Halo it's on a flat surface but it's not SSR, it's very noisy (take a look at the 4K trailer in youtube, you can see the time-stamp in the image and see how noisy it is when the camera moves) and doesn't show occlusion artifacts even though the character is occluding most of the Chief.
I noticed that too when they showed Chief's profile close up you could see the noisy shadowing in parts.
Sometimes DF leaves me scratching my head. There is little to nothing next gen about that trailer. I get that they dont have anything to compare against but surely they can look at some tech demos to see whats possible.
The character models look pretty much the same as other current gen games. i thought the Halo 5 character models in the video looked very close to what we saw in Infinite. Even if they think it looks better, it doesnt matter because its not a next gen leap.
If slightly more accurate lighting, reflections and shadows at 60 fps are all what we expect from next gen consoles then maybe Phil was right and a 4 tflops Navi GPU should be the best way forward.
I disagree. Watching the trailer in 4K on a 65" TV the game looks really good. You can't run that at 60fps this gen.
It's pretty simple. The data you need to draw the current frame needs to be in RAM. It's sent there by the storage drive. On PS4 you have like 5GB of RAM, but the HDD only sends data at about 100MB/s, so it would take about 50 seconds to swap everything in that RAM out. They deal with this by using only part of the RAM for the current scene, and the rest to hold assets the system expects will be needed for future frames.
On PS5, however, we will have an SSD with read speeds of likely 4-8GB/s. Assuming 20GB of RAM for games, you can swap all that data out in only 3-6 seconds. Ergo, the number of assets the RAM needs to hold for future frames and the guesswork it needs to engage in is massively reduced, as it can react far more quickly on the fly. Of course, the jump in RAM next generation will be only 3x rather than the 16x we've gotten in each new Playstation, so I'm not sure how much of the effect will improve games as opposed to simply making up for that smaller RAM jump. Can anyone help with explaining that?
I think the biggest problem with the PS3 was that the 512MB of RAM was split into two pools of 256MB so you pretty much only had access to half the ram xbox 360 games had.
Would the SSDs help with mitigate lower RAM? IIRC, MS said they have something like 4 Gbps but Sony's patents were for 8Gbps. That should help them fill up the RAM extremely fast. Of course next gen games will look a lot better than current gen games and will use mega textures and a lot more NPC models. Would 8GB be enough for realistic looking open world games that look like this AND have NPCs on screen at once?
I can't believe you'd leak HZD2 like that.
I guess it would depend on how much RAM is generally reserved for those predicted assets. Sounds like whatever improvements there would be in terms of RAM utilization would be heavily case-dependent.
In a best case scenario, yes. Tha'ts not how it works when it comes to randomly reading files from the drive (SSD or otherwise) in real life though.
I haven't ready the Wired article so not up to speed on Cerny sauce, so could well be wrong. But for me reading how people are intepreting what the SSD means for these consoles (and don't get me wrong, it is good) is on-par with teraflop wars.
FWIW, there isn't a difference between flops and teraflops - it's just your standard SI prefix, same as used in bytes, megabytes, gigabytes, terabytes etc. One TF is just one trillion FLOPS. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOPS and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tera-
I believe someone posted a few weeks ago that their developer friend said that the PS4 would've only needed 2-3GB of RAM if it had a similar SSD setup.
Then how does it work, exactly? Because you sound like you're claiming that the SSD won't be much faster at reading random files, when I've heard that seek times are one of the biggest improvements to them.
Random reads aren't done at 3GB/s, though, although it is the area where their difference is felt most. Look through any SSD reviews posted recently (SATA or NVMe doesn't matter).
Also I'm not a game developer, but having "free" RAM doesn't make sense. You want to have stuff in RAM as much as feasibly possible as it's astronimcally faster than loading it from an SSD in to empty RAM to then process.
The shadow artifacts are actually very common shadow map artifacts so I'm 99% sure that Halo Infinite's shadows are not using RT. I'm also not seeing any evidence for GI or AO using RT. Reflections are our last resort :)
If they drop the FPS to 30 on the S, the CPU will have double the work time so that's equivalent to doubling its' power. So yeah, the S CPU will be a limiting factor but at least they can enjoy double the CPU power over Halo 5 as long as they don't mind leaving the XBO players behind regarding FPS. I mean, it's a cross-gen game, I think it's cool to have a 30FPS version on the 7 years old console.
Dictator - I see that we both caught that little reflection that might be RT. What do you say about the reflections in Flight Simulator? They have noise patterns that look very RT.Oh man, it's so hard to keep up with this thread during E3 AND AMD's full Navi reveal :)
I'm not sure if it was brought up, but I'm pretty sure both Flight Simulator and Halo Infinite used ray tracing in their trailers.
* A very noisy reflection on a curvy surface:
* A very noisy reflection of the chief on the wall:
In Halo it's on a flat surface but it's not SSR, it's very noisy (take a look at the 4K trailer in youtube, you can see the time-stamp in the image and see how noisy it is when the camera moves) and doesn't show occlusion artifacts even though the character is occluding most of the Chief.
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Either way, we get an absolutely tremendous increase in the speed at which data can be loaded into RAM, so even if you can't swap out everything in RAM in 3-6 seconds, you can still do it many, many times faster than a HDD.
Except nobody was talking about 'free RAM'. I'm was talking about less RAM being used for future frames, which would then be freed up for use on the frame currently being drawn, resulting in massively improved detail. I thought that was obvious.
What do you make of the red and green lights reflecting on Chief's armor?
4:47 in when the alarm goes off
I have to stop watching this trailer. I can only get so erect. LOL
I'm sorry guys, but it's been what....48 hours since th conference? There is no way in hell we wouldn't know by now if it was ray tracing, hell multiple people from upper management have been interviewed and not once did they say anything. It's not ray tracing. The fact that it's a debate as to whether it is....means that is either isn't or that it's such a comprised console form of it that it's not even worth it.
Okay - free'd up RAM due to it requring less space - because it's quick to access the SSD versus a normal HDD? I don't even think this make sense and I can't believe anyone would build a game around that approach.
If you take the X1X for exmaple, it's RAM pool is running at 326GB/s at all time. Having to go back to an SSD for 'stuff' is going to be pinging off at 1% of that speed in a best case scenario.
Any how, maybe I don't understand you or you don't understand me. But the tl;dr: of the SSD in the new consoles isn't going to have any impact on the consoles RAM.
So did E3 make us more hyped up about Next Gen or did it throw in a ton of fuel to this thread and lit it up?
I'll be surprised if we get anything close to RTX quality RT.
We spoke about this earlier this week and I still wonder if Lockhart for Xbox is not happening anymore, or was never happening to begin with and that it was a bullshit rumor. Or maybe they keep it for next E3. Personally I really would be very fine if it doesn't happen at all.
But that brings me to this, what happens to the "no one gets left behind" that Phil said? No more generations? I am 100% for generations myself. Unless they can prove us all wrong, and that it CAN work.
But that brings me to this, what happens to the "no one gets left behind" that Phil said? No more generations? I am 100% for generations myself. Unless they can prove us all wrong, and that it CAN work.
depends. The Scarlett reveal wasn't really impressive, but at least it gave us lots of good info about what would be coming.
A lot is still up in the air.
It think these consoles will he able to do ray tracing the same way that 360 and ps3 could do 1080p. Which is to say....technically....
Yeah i kinda feel the same way too, lots more questions and not enough answers.
I'm 99% sure that Flight Simulator has RT reflections because of the noise in one of the shots and that wasn't discussed in interviews yet either. But yeah, there is a low chance of Halo using it without the PR department going wild on it.
That actually makes me think it's a reflection map and not RT. The camera does a 180 right a few seconds later and I can't spot the source of light that reflects on the Chief's visor. I mean there are red lights in the scene, but they don't seem to correlate to the lights in his visor. Funny thing is, the E3 2018 trailer did show reflection on the visor that was of an object outside of the frame, a warthog, but who knows how they had achieved that.
Gotcha, thanks. Either way the lighting looks amazing in this trailer.
Wait, I see the visor reflecting the red guide light from the floor on his visor. That's the source.
For me the 2 main takeaways is that PS5 seems to go for the high end/$499 build (if those rumblings are true, which I think they are) and that MS is not all-in o the 2 SKU's strategy at this point in time.
Also that it was a week E3 in term of reveals, which means next one we'll be great.
At the momenr our hope is a dev-kit reveal from a reputable outlet
We should be hyped up. Compare to where we were last year. We have now confirmed SSDs, hardware RT, brand new GPU architecture, and Zen 2 delivering on hopes and dreams.
The lighting looks great, I really like how the smoke particles take light. But I don't think we can deduce RT from that visor, actually I'm pretty sure it's not after seeing the DF video that showed SSR artifacts in the last scene (5:40). But if the next Xbox really does have RT cores, I'm guessing 343 will incorporate RT in the Slip-Space engine.
thought the light came from the corridor before the hangar bay.
edit: scratch that, there's the red emergency light seen at 0:40 in the hangar.
Having an SSD as fat as what we are about to get now is really that big a deal.
Lets take the PS4 with its 5GB of RAM for instance. After taking out the RAMneeded for all the Frame critical assets and the actual frame buffer itself; they may have used up only like 60% of all that 5GB. They could want to use more sure, but they also have to keep a lot of "non-frame critical" data in RAM too, just in case they need to pull that in when the player turns and starts walking towards that house with a door that needs to be picked. Or gets into the stairwell to get to another floor. Or wait for that massive gate to slowly open.
These are all thing that will probably take less than 4 seconds, and how much data can you really move from an HDD with speeds of around60Mb/s-100MB/s in 5 secs. Oh and don't forget to ad the time it will take to actually seek out that data to begin with. So what they do is that they preload chunks of data that the game "may" need, and stream in as much as they can. As games get bigger, ad the RAM size gets bigger, then so does the size of that data cache in RAM.
A fast SSD means you don't need that data Cache.....or at least not as much as you would have probably needed. This isn't about best-case scenarios anymore, it will become the norm and it will be as big a deal in game development as was the shift from cartridges to discs. Its kinda like we have gone full circle and back to cartridges again.
Definitely not hyped. MS dropped the ball with their reveal and AMD disappointed with its terribly overpriced mediocre GPUs. No ray tracing in a $449 GPU in 2019? really?
thankfully, some folks did some estimates on the jaguar SoC and we are looking at a massive die which gives me hope we will see a 10-11+ tflops next gen GPU so i am content for now.
everyone seems to be going back to being conservative with their predictions. Anex has betrayed Team HBM and the consensus seems to be 10 tflops but im in the 12.9 tflops camp again and happy to be here after that god awful AMD conference.
it just means that Brad Sams and co. were just MS pawns in their overall marketing agenda. I wouldnt call them astroturfers because Brad at least runs a credible website and youtube channel, but he was definitely spoonfed info to test the waters. I dont think there is anything too sinister in that. I always thought it was strange how Brad was the first one to say that MS were now trying to match Sony's system instead of being the power leader. To me, it always felt like a controlled leak to keep expectations in check. The 4x multiplyer leak and no mention of numbers was another controlled leak to manage expectations.
I dont care either way. We got some good info due to those leaks and it gives Brad a lot more credibility going forward. We should've trusted him a lot more.
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That corridor and the hanger bay do have red lights, but it's hard to correlate a specific light to that reflection so it's impossible to know. If it was a cubic map, it would have red lights for sure because there are red lights everywhere in that ship so as long as we don't successfully see something out of the frame that reflects on the visor, we can't tell for sure. But the ending scene really does make a good case for it using SSR because of the occlusion artifacts.
I
It was just speculation on their part. You can listen to it on the E3 edition of the easy allies podcast.
It was just speculation on their part. You can listen to it on the E3 edition of the easy allies podcast.
It's been a theory here for a while, that some MS rumors were controlled leaks.
Seems that they're talking about it on their latest podcast right now
Most of the thurrott scarlett leaks are very likely controlled leaks, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I remember getting yelled down by people when I said this is what was happening
What if the SSD is so fast enough that the OS doesn't have to take up space in the rams anymoe? Meaning we get full whatever rams they have next gen dedicated to games!I think the biggest problem with the PS3 was that the 512MB of RAM was split into two pools of 256MB so you pretty much only had access to half the ram xbox 360 games had.
Would the SSDs help with mitigate lower RAM? IIRC, MS said they have something like 4 Gbps but Sony's patents were for 8Gbps. That should help them fill up the RAM extremely fast. Of course next gen games will look a lot better than current gen games and will use mega textures and a lot more NPC models. Would 8GB be enough for realistic looking open world games that look like this AND have NPCs on screen at once?
It's called "controlled leaks". They did the same thing with Scorpio( 6 TF!) in spring 2016,month or so before E3,just after we got leak with full specs of PS4 Pro.( ~4 TF)
Controlled leak. Given to journalists to create a narrative.
Right on cue Digital Foundry has a great video out breaking the trailer down.
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