I was not intending to agree that XB2 is a gem ahead of PS5.
I'm just saying RDNA v2 is definitely coming, and one if not both consoles will have RDNA v2 features, at the very least hardware RT
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT5| - It's in RDNA
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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I was not intending to agree that XB2 is a gem ahead of PS5.
I'm just saying RDNA v2 is definitely coming, and one if not both consoles will have RDNA v2 features, at the very least hardware RT
Actually, it's possible MS doesn't need to edge the PS5 in power precisely because only a large gap in power will yield a discernible real-world difference (especially for more casual gamers). It may be that price is really where they need to stake out a competitive advantage.
Granted, that doesn't mean they can get trounced in terms of power, but clawing their way to a 5 or 10% advantage, especially at the expense of driving up the price, may not make a ton of sense. If they can produce exceptional visuals and 3rd party games that are roughly on par with what we see on Sony's console, and couple that with Gamepass and a significantly improved stable of first-party games, MS might have a chance (in the west, at least).
Mea culpa on the "mythical" thing. They haven't given out much concrete information, but they have addressed it.
RDNA 2 is almost certainly a 2021 product. 2020 is going to be about filling in the RDNA(1) product stack.
This is what I expect. Like the PS4 Pro not being straight Polaris, but not being Vega either.
I think both the next PlayStation and Scarlett will be a modified version of RDNA with some early hardware ray-tracing features, an evolved version of which will become part of RDNA 2.
RDNA 2 is almost certainly a 2021 product. 2020 is going to be about filling in the RDNA(1) product stack.
This is what I expect. Like the PS4 Pro not being straight Polaris, but not being Vega either.
I think both the next PlayStation and Scarlett will be a modified version of RDNA with some early hardware ray-tracing features, an evolved version of which will become part of RDNA 2.
Already mentioned?
For now, there's only one new Xbox console coming, contrary to rumours of multiple boxes in the works, as well as Spencer's own statements last year.
Last year, at the 2018 version of the big Xbox press conference that happened last week, Spencer made the initial announcement that Microsoft has "game consoles" in production.
Notably, he said "consoles" – it wasn't a slip of the tongue.
This year, though, he spoke of Project Scarlett as if it were a single box scheduled to arrive in holiday 2020.
So, what gives? Is Microsoft making multiple new Xbox consoles or what?
"Last year we said consoles, and we've shipped a console and we've now detailed another console. I think that's plural," Spencer said.
The console that Microsoft shipped earlier this year, of course, was not a new Xbox console – it was a disc-less version of its already existing Xbox One S hardware.
"Technically that is plural," Spencer said with a laugh after I pushed him on the technicality he invoked. "Right now," he said, "we're focused on Project Scarlett and what we put on stage."
That said, given Microsoft's recent history with multiple versions of Xbox One, we wouldn't be surprised to see new versions of Project Scarlett in the coming years – it just sounds like we'll only see one in late 2020.
For now, there's only one new Xbox console coming, contrary to rumours of multiple boxes in the works, as well as Spencer's own statements last year.
Last year, at the 2018 version of the big Xbox press conference that happened last week, Spencer made the initial announcement that Microsoft has "game consoles" in production.
Notably, he said "consoles" – it wasn't a slip of the tongue.
This year, though, he spoke of Project Scarlett as if it were a single box scheduled to arrive in holiday 2020.
So, what gives? Is Microsoft making multiple new Xbox consoles or what?
"Last year we said consoles, and we've shipped a console and we've now detailed another console. I think that's plural," Spencer said.
The console that Microsoft shipped earlier this year, of course, was not a new Xbox console – it was a disc-less version of its already existing Xbox One S hardware.
"Technically that is plural," Spencer said with a laugh after I pushed him on the technicality he invoked. "Right now," he said, "we're focused on Project Scarlett and what we put on stage."
That said, given Microsoft's recent history with multiple versions of Xbox One, we wouldn't be surprised to see new versions of Project Scarlett in the coming years – it just sounds like we'll only see one in late 2020.
You may be right, but that doesn't contradict my point. I'm not saying that a lower price will wrestle users away from Sony; I'm saying that a lower price has a better chance of improving their marketshare relative to Sony than a slight power advantage.
You're confusing terms here somewhat.
RDNA isn't analogous to Polaris or Vega. It's analogous to GCN; of which Vega and Polaris are derivative generations of the GPU microarchitecture and ISA.
In general, however, I agree with your point that RDNA 2 is an unknown. So unless these people claiming one console is a more advanced version of RDNA than the other can back up their claim with some detail about what RDNA is, then I'll take such claims with a pinch of salt.
Bolting RT on the end might be the only change between RDNA gen 1 and gen 2, in which case, since both consoles are confirmed to have hardware RT, the RDNA 2 for Xbox claim is simply immaterial.
For further clarification, GCN as a comparison didn't see any major changes to the Graphics and Compute Array (I.e. where the CUs are) until Vega with RPM. The wiki page on GCN gives a pretty good description of the differences between GCN generations and for the most part, aside from tweaking the FE to scale to more SEs, GCN remained largely similar between gens until Vega.
So anyone interpreting the RDNA 2 for Xbox claim to mean the GPU will be massive more efficient than PS5 or these new first gen Navi cards is setting themselves up for disappointment.
Navi 2020 high end is being compared to 2018's GTX2080. That's not good.
And this ? It was posted on gaf with the new ID of the Navi gpu 🤔
Very true.. maybe I'm being overly optimistic lol. I just don't think HBM2 makes sense for a console that's supposed to last 6-7 years in the market. We'll see I guess
Some epic backtracking going on..
Yeah, these are both from the same event. I don't buy that Next Gen RDNA refers to the current iteration of RDNA. It refers to either RDNA 2 or some subsequent iteration of RDNA (e.g. RDNA 3).
In this context, absolutely. No doubt "Next Gen RDNA" refers to RDNA2 or greater here at the gaming tech day.
But the Scarlett quote isn't from there, it's from the other show. This is the context:
She doesn't say "Next gen RDNA", the exact wording she uses is (22:41) "And it uses our Zen 2 CPU core, and our next generation Radeon RDNA gaming graphics architecture". 35:15 she also says "Now it's time to talk about Navi - our next generation GPU"
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It says 2080/2080 Ti
An 80 CU RDNA2 GPU should definitely be able to compete well with a 2080 Ti
That's presumably 18.4 RDNA2 TF's
Yea.. that's immediately what I noticed too. At least they'll finally have raytracing..? XD
So I, as per usual, don't know what I'm talking about. But didn't the nice man from AMD say that many of us are misunderstanding the significance of RDNA in terms of generations? Like that yes, it is technically a new architecture, but that's not the way they are thinking about? Something about ISAs? Gosh, I clearly understand nothing. Anyway, I agree that pinning hopes on vague generations of unreleased hardware is a fool's errand, but I also don't think it makes sense to entirely downplay the significance of RDNA->RDNA2 when we already know there's at least one major feature included. But yes, new features doesn't mean the thing will suddenly get 30% cooler.
Interesting lol. That is quite the technicality. And clearly not what he was talking about back in 2018 XD. That said, even this answer doesn't necessarily kill Lockhart dreams (or nightmares as most of this thread probably sees it). "We've now detailed another console" doesn't mean they can't detail another console later :p. And "Right now, we're focused on Project Scarlett (seems to be their term for Anaconda - but.. could also still be the overarching console family name) and what we put on stage (we'll talk about the other stuff later)." Either way, it'll be interesting to see what happens. Let's not forget that MS has never said anything about being the most powerful console next gen (beyond this vague setting the benchmark remark) or being the cheapest next gen. We've created that narrative ourselves mostly with help from insiders who may or may not be wrong now or in the past XD.
Hope anyone is able to answer.
Until when does Sony and MS have to lock down final specs?
In a month or two?
Until when does Sony and MS have to lock down final specs?
In a month or two?
with that die size no way anaconda uses it like some speculated yesterday.
And this ? It was posted on gaf with the new ID of the Navi gpu 🤔
start of the new year there about, though I imagine we are at the bug fixing phase of the process for the most part.
Wow so they still have heaps of time to boost clocks and tinker a bit. Thanks.
Do you know of any videos out there that show or explain how previous gen consoles were designed and made? I'm hella interested to watch something like that.
yup then need 8 to 10 months too make enough supply to meet demand.
They can change things like clock speeds or reserved/locked/disabled resources after the consoles launch with firmware updates.
RAM modules could change next year. Not the type, but if they are using GDDR6 its likely still possible that they could use 14 or 16 Gbps (speed) modules. They could switch to 16 Gb or use 32 Gb (capacity) modules.
That said, the actual integrated circuit design of console SoCs is definitely set in stone by now.
Still makes me wonder when we'll get next gen hardware in the cloud datacenters as that's gotta require a significant chunk of the manufacturing capacity of next gen hardware. Will Sony and Microsoft try to get next gen hardware in the cloud day 1 for the launch of their consoles? Or wait until 2021 to get that off the ground? I know it was mentioned in this thread that Xbox will be looking to wait until 2021 to get next gen hardware in xCloud, I'm guessing it'll probably be the same thing for Sony and PS Now?
I've suspected this is one of the reasons Microsoft seems to be mandating that all next gen games will also play on current gen hardware (at least at first) so that xCloud can play them immediately without the need for next gen hardware to run it since the initial xCloud service will utilize Xbox One S hardware.
I dont think a two SKU plan was ever announced let alone cancelled.
No confirmation, just a buttload of speculation.
I'm assuming they were asking about confirmation from an insider or something like that, cause yeah makes no sense for MS to announce the cancellation of something they never announced in the first place, lol
This should be threadmarked as it sums up the thread perfectly.
No, and every time an MS exec is asked whether they have multiple consoles, they give bizarre dodging answers that clearly indicate they have something going on. Lockhart cancelled is mainly wishful thinking, as far as I can tell.
The comment from AMD about GPU generations was about clarifying how AMD distinguishes between a GPU microarch and instruction set arch (ISA).
The post was a direct response to the incorrect rumour of Navi being some GCN/RDNA hybrid monstrosity - which was a confusion of the fact that Navi supports the GCN ISA.
There is no downplaying of the significance of RDNA 1 to 2 because there is no information on what RDNA 2 is from official sources.
As far as known facts are concerned RDNA 2 merely equals 7nm+ at this stage; which since we know consoles are not on 7nm+ pretty much disproves any Xbox-RDNA2 rumour.
We know that Navi is RDNA1, just as Vega is GCN5 and Polaris GCN4. So RDNA2 is not likely to still be referred to by AMD as Navi, and since MS have themselves confirmed Scarlet as Navi I don't put any confidence in these new rumours.
Now that's not to say MS haven't customized their Scarlett GPU, but clearly they're calling it Navi, so whatever it will end up as will be RDNA1 with additional features; same as the Pro was Polaris with Vega features and not consideres Vega in its entirety.
It was widely reported by insiders as true.
Obviously MS could not confirm the cancellation, but they were directly asked at E3:
"How many Scarlet consoles are there?"
If Lockhart had been cancelled, I see no reason they wouldn't just answer: "one".
Has any dev apart from giving misgivings about Lockhart, ACTUALLY confirmed it's existence real or proposed?
"Working on new consoles" immediately made me think that the discless Xbox is included. I get the feeling that that was the case or indeed that dev feedback made them rethink their strategy.
Whatever the scenario it doesn't really matter. As long as their next sole console is not an xbone fuck up, we are all good
Read through this thread with wildy varying results where some people have golden chips while other can't undervolt at all.
This is normal as the quality of chips follow a gauss curve. Do you really think AMD just randomly puts the voltage of their cards too high and that you or some other random person on the internet knows better than the people developing the chips?
The "Lockhart is cancelled" rumour only popped up post-Reiner, and I fully believe it's made up.
IF the PS5 is actually more powerful, and MS found out, the Lockhart would actually make MORE sense, as the budget-level next-gen market would clearly be underserved by Sony.
MS giving that market up to exclusively compete at a higher price point would make no sense, since the Lockhart was conceived as a budget option in the first place.
The only world in which cancellation makes sense is in leak threads, where TF means all and it looks bad that MS has two Skus, both weaker.
IF the PS5 is actually more powerful, and MS found out, the Lockhart would actually make MORE sense, as the budget-level next-gen market would clearly be underserved by Sony.
MS giving that market up to exclusively compete at a higher price point would make no sense, since the Lockhart was conceived as a budget option in the first place.
The only world in which cancellation makes sense is in leak threads, where TF means all and it looks bad that MS has two Skus, both weaker.
Well, I mean, it popped up once Microsoft talked about their new console, singular, at E3.
Is there a "budget-level next-gen market"?
Lockhart makes sense in a world where Microsoft is going for console unit sales domination above all else. I'm not sure they are, any more.
Maybe PS5 devkit is 14.2, and PS5 retail is 12.9 TFLOPS ( like Benji said ).
Reiner tweet have nothing to do with this rumor.
"No Lockhart" started after MS failed to give us any info about it at e3. Add to this some mixed messaging from the executives and silence from previous "insiders".
But anyway its still speculation and we have 0 concrete info about Lockhart. IMO it still exists and MS is just not talking about it
Just as 2 sku was an remains speculation, lack of a plural "console" made people think it's shelved.
It was post-MS E3, not started by Reiner.
MS refused to state Scarlet was a singular console at E3, despite being repeatedly being asked, so nothing about their statements would suggest they changed course.
Again, if Lockhart did not exist, they'd have no problem stating there's only one Scarlet.
I also believe it's not a sound strategy, but obviously MS needs more people buying fewer games and more subscriptions (i.e. budget minded customers) to sustain its new model.
It also fits into their talk of a generation-less approach, and they already tried a "halo effect" this generation (eventually, and with poor results), so it's not unlike them to try.
It doesn't fit if you want MS to have the most powerful box and that's it, which is why I'm quite positive cancellation is fanboy wish fulfillment.
Scarlet has been unveiled as a single "project", not a single console.
So, even MS's most official piece of next-gen marketing is not at all suggestive of a single console approach.
I, for one, hope the Next Xbox and PS5 will have identical hardware specs & capabilities. It will be more interesting that way, especially in the service and software features department.
Actually, i'd argue a budget-nextgen console is itself an oxymoron; especially ones with significantly lower performance than the flagship model.
By definition the current gen boxes ARE the budget options, and while lower end nextgen SKUs aren't a new thing the sales ratios of flagship to low end SKUs when the difference was merely HDD space pretty much overwhelmingly proves gamers at launch by and large aren't interested in a lower spec. next-gen console.
For me Lockheart is rooted in an assumption that budget gemers don't consider beyond the point of purchase, and/or will eventually be willing to upgrade their console in 3yrs time. That doesn't happen and so the value of a forced 1080p next-gen console drops off rapidly over time. People -- even budget consumers -- aren't ignorant of this and I can't see many of them wanting to be stuck having to play next-gen games in shitty low resolutions later in the gen when everyone and their grandma are using 4k panels.
how is this different from the language used around scorpio?
I read the thread and the chart, literally every one can be undervolted. Issues can arise when you undervolt AND Overclock.
AMD has no interest in performance per watt, so they're overly generous on voltage, and are a bit overly aggressive with the clock speeds. Lower both a tad, and the performance per watt skyrockets.
They just don't want to get embarrassed by Nvidia in outright performance, so they say F it to performance per watt
You're arguing why Lockhart as product wouldn't work, which: I agree with.
However, Lockhart's existence isn't rooted in the fact people think it's a good idea; it's rooted in several leaks from several verified MS "insiders" claiming it existed for months on threads and their own websites.
It's not, but it has never been called a single console, despite Xbox execs being asked about it repeatedly.
Preview test of PCIE 4 SSD Phison
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The Navi 21 estimated TBP there does not really align? Should it not be higher?
And this ? It was posted on gaf with the new ID of the Navi gpu 🤔
Have to disagree.
Scarlett was described as being 4x the power of the one X, launching Holiday 2020. That doesn't describe a family of consoles, just one. That was most people's takeaway after watching the reveal.
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