Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT6| - Mostly Fan Noise and Hot Air

Ōkami Haundo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,978
PA - US
Why is this likely...? This is not 2012/13. Cerny already announced PS5,we are in uncharted waters now regarding that official PS Meeting/PSX/whatever event...could be December,January,Feb.,March etc.
Agreed! This year Sony announced PS5 via a Wired article and skipped E3. That behavior doesn't exactly line up with them reverting back to old strategies.

That's not me saying that a February PS Meeting "won't" happen, just that I don't think it's as much of a sure thing as it would have been previously.
 
Feb 10, 2018
12,752
Sony is and always has been a hardware company lol. their consoles, phones, laptops, tvs and cameras were all top of the line back in one point or another. kids are probably too young to remember the walkman, their extremely popular Vaio laptops and the Sony Erickson phones which were everywhere before the Iphone took over.
True, but for there consoles things like fans + heatsinks have always been from other companies.
I just think the idea of sony or MS making tech vastly superior, is unrealistic.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,688
Florida
True, but for there consoles things like fans + heatsinks have always been from other companies.
I just think the idea of sony or MS making tech vastly superior, is unrealistic.
Most companies aren't incented to use out of the box solutions unlike console makers. They leave the cooling up to the user beyond the basic GPU fans. They prioritize cost/profitability instead of size.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
4,139
so now I expect PS5 to have either 36/40 CUs or 40/44 CUs or the absolute most, 44 active CUs, coupled with a high clock speed. We’ll probably get 9-10 RDNA TFlops. I cannot however, seem to make up my mind on memory confirmation. Be it unified GDDR6, or a DDR4/HBM2 combo.

PS5 Pro in 2023 will double the CU count, possibly Chiplets if not another ‘butterfly” configuration like PS4 Pro GPU.
Thus, CU count for PS5 Pro could be 72(36), 80(40) or 88(44).

Regardless, PS4 Pro will be updated with RDNA 3 features, have a more robust HW accelerated RT solution and maybe HBM3.
 
Oct 27, 2017
699
Conspiracy theorists could say that the sole purpose of the oberon leak is to lay the groundwork for a "high clocks = good" narrative. That goes hand in hand with a narrower design that all of a sudden seems popular.

/adjusts-tin-foil-hat
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,112
Agreed! This year Sony announced PS5 via a Wired article and skipped E3. That behavior doesn't exactly line up with them reverting back to old strategies.

That's not me saying that a February PS Meeting "won't" happen, just that I don't think it's as much of a sure thing as it would have been previously.
PS5 has not been announced yet officially .
Yes they talk about there next gen plans more than once but they never call it PS5 .
So chances are they still do a PS meeting but i can see it being later and covering more .
 

Ōkami Haundo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,978
PA - US
PS5 has not been announced yet officially .
Yes they talk about there next gen plans more than once but they never call it PS5 .
So chances are they still do a PS meeting but i can see it being later and covering more .
They had an article about the specs of what will be their next console and I personally consider that to be an announcement.

With that, I still hold onto the idea that anything can happen.
 

Bundy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,071
They had an article about the specs of what will be their next console and I personally consider that to be an announcement.

With that, I still hold onto the idea that anything can happen.
Well I wouldn't call "PS5 will have Navi/RT/SSD" specs. We still need a reveal with the actual specs. Followed by new PS5 games.
The question is: Will it be a PS5 Meeting (press-only), or a super PSX where PS fans can watch it live, too :)
 
Oct 27, 2017
699
The question is: Will it be a PS5 Meeting (press-only), or a super PSX where PS fans can watch it live, too :)
Super PSX - " the 99, not the 1" approach

Why have the message diluted by other media gatekeepers when you can reach people directly?

The Death Stranding stream reveal engagement must have been very effective. I'll be surprised if we don't see more things like this in the future.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,991
Haven't a few people said that fewer CUs at higher clocks might be preferable? With the added benefit in this case (if 36CUs) of elegant BC.
That reminds what Nintendo did with Wii U to ensure hardware BC with Wii. They first designed Wii U in order to be compatible with Wii hardware. I think Wii U hardware was also 'elegantly' backward compatible with Wii.

Did it have a negative impact on Wii U overall performance ?
 

CliveLH

Member
Jun 22, 2019
20
True, but for there consoles things like fans + heatsinks have always been from other companies.
I just think the idea of sony or MS making tech vastly superior, is unrealistic.
On the Microsoft side they have the Surface team which is probably one of the best hardware team in the world. The Xbox One X was a technological achievement.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,991
Wait a minute. If Sony designed PS5 with a constraint of being 100% compatible with PS4 and had to use a 40CUs GPU for that then it means AMD could have actually designed their first RDNA GPU (5700/5700XT = Navi) for Sony while using it as their first RDNA GPU !

Let me summarize it: AMD created Navi for Sony.
 

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
2,672
That reminds what Nintendo did with Wii U to ensure hardware BC with Wii. They first designed Wii U in order to be compatible with Wii hardware. I think Wii U hardware was also 'elegantly' backward compatible with Wii.

Did it have a negative impact on Wii U overall performance ?
Actually the HW design of the Wii U was impressive and interesting. The console itself not so much.

How about PS Meeting in September with stealth late 2019 launch?!? ;)
 

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,011
Wait a minute. If Sony designed PS5 with a constraint of being 100% compatible with PS4 and had to use a 40CUs GPU for that then it means AMD could have actually designed their first RDNA GPU (5700/5700XT = Navi) for Sony while using it as their first RDNA GPU !

Let me summarize it: AMD created Navi for Sony.
Where does this leave Scarlett than? Amd created the bigger Navi for them?
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,668
United Kingdom
lol... i know what TDP is.

The thing is, power consumption doesn't force a hard limit on what you can do. It's an optional limit. But TDP on the other hand forces a hard limit when considering the size of the console, size, type and cost of the cooling solution.
TDP is a direct function of peak power consumption. For any given processor with given clocks and voltage, the peak power consumption is essentially analogous to TDP, i.e. your thermal design limit used to design the cooling system.

One is a thermal quantity and the other a unit of electrical power consumed but the two are essentially analogous... i.e. you profile any given processor and determine a peak sustained power you design your cooling system for---you're essentially assuming all that electrical energy gets transformed into heat (which isn't far from the truth).

You are the one getting this wrong.
What specifically am I getting wrong?

Lets take say the 5700xt for instance. That's a 40CU chip and is capable of a sustained clock of around 1755Mhz at ~160W. Its possible to undervolt it and still hit those clocks but consume less power and in turn have a lower TDP. But if you choose to clock it higher by just 100Mhz or 200Mhz you could push your power consumption up by 20% and raise the TDP up by 10% if you were already at your efficiency threshold.
Nooooooo... if you push the power consumption up by 20%, the thermal output increases by 20%. Thus you need to design a cooling system with 20% more capacity, i.e. 20% higher TDP. They're directly proportional quantities.

The options are simple. If your power consumption is constant. Say 150W. When applying that 150W across two chips, one with 36CU and the other with 40CU, the 36CU chip will end up having a higher clock and a higher TDP while the 40CU chip will end up having a lower clock. You simply need more power to drive more transistors. This should be common sense.
No. If you have two chips both consuming a peak of 150W, the TDP will essentially have the same thermal cooling capacity.

What I think you're missing is that for any given fixed processor cores/clocks/voltages, actual power consumption will vary with processor load. Which is why when I've been discussing power consumption, I'm talking about the maximum which is essentially analogous to TDP.

You can tweak voltages all you want, but thats not really a viable option when considerring making 10s ofmilions of consoles each year and prioritizing yeailds. Are you going to tweak VRMs and cooling on each unit too? Nope. You will have a cooling solution and components that can handle you absolute worst performing chip. And that will be the baseline for your entire line.
The key thing you're not seeming to grasp is that clock-speed doesn't increase power consumption (/TDP) on its own. You can increase clocks by a nudge without any increase in voltage and the power consumption increase will be negligible. Increasing voltage increases power/TDP non-linearly (it's somewhere between the square and cubic power).

When console makers are manufacturing APU die, they will target voltage limits for a majority of the dies coming off the production line to be able to run at a given clockspeed stably. The voltage limit will imply a given TDP that they have already designed their console cooling system capacity too. So no there is no tweaking after the fact. But tweaking the voltage limits during production can maximise yields. So console designers will want to afford the most liberal voltage limits possible to remain within their console TDP design constraints.

On the other hand, the precise physical performance characteristics of the silicon coming out of the fab will depend on the manufacturing process. A more mature process that is producing a higher proportion of dies that hit target clocks well below the voltage limits will give the opportunity to raise the clock speed and voltage limits if desired and still be within the TDP constraints. Alternatively, they can keep the same clocks and voltage limit and enjoy higher yields.

Edit:

Referring back to my previous post where I gave the example of the PS4 Pro vs. X1X, the whole point is that clocks and die size aren't the only consideration.

You're tangent about vapour chamber cooling is irrelevant, because the cooling system only removes the heat a console APU will generate. I'm talking about the performance vs. power / thermal output characteristics of the APU itself.

The cooling system can be anything, as long as it is designed to dissipate your X Watts of TDP. That specific "anything" of your cooling system design merely implies a cost and will be more or less depending on what the X Watts TDP number is.
 
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Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,991
Where does this leave Scarlett than? Amd created the bigger Navi for them?
Navi is just a product name. Product names can and do change often during development. Anyways it's just a wild theory.

My point is that if PS5 has indeed 40CUs then it would be quite an interesting coincidence that it would have the same number of CU as the first RDNA GPU. It didn't happen with PS4 and GCN.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,284
Somewhere South
Wait a minute. If Sony designed PS5 with a constraint of being 100% compatible with PS4 and had to use a 40CUs GPU for that then it means AMD could have actually designed their first RDNA GPU (5700/5700XT = Navi) for Sony while using it as their first RDNA GPU !

Let me summarize it: AMD created Navi for Sony.
How else to better leverage a partnership with one of the biggest gaming companies than just, you know, straight up shipping the thing you designed for them :D
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,305
But that's a voxel based global illumination method
You're getting stuck in naming semantics.
It's a dynamically generated ray-search acceleration structure that you can use to generate GI, reflections, or just render the entire scene (completely skip rasterization). So yes, you can trace rays for every pixel of the scene on screen.
Voxelizing instead of generating a BVH tree has its own (and very different) performance/memory trade-offs, but ultimately serves the same purpose. It doesn't directly compute ray-triangle-intersections, but that's never been a pre-requisite for RT.
 

sncvsrtoip

Member
Apr 18, 2019
936
If somebody things ps5 will have 36 cu(40cu with 4 disabled) because backward compatibility then he is wrong. They will go with this number because rx5700xt with 40cu is 251mm^2 at 7nm and its even little bigger than expected for console gpu and sony don't want to make the same mistake as with ps3 (sell consoles with big loses).
 
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Feb 10, 2018
12,752
Wait a minute. If Sony designed PS5 with a constraint of being 100% compatible with PS4 and had to use a 40CUs GPU for that then it means AMD could have actually designed their first RDNA GPU (5700/5700XT = Navi) for Sony while using it as their first RDNA GPU !

Let me summarize it: AMD created Navi for Sony.
This would also jive well with the rumours of sony wanting to originally launch earlier.
 

kmag

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,509
On the Microsoft side they have the Surface team which is probably one of the best hardware team in the world. The Xbox One X was a technological achievement.
I still think the X1X cooler was about as much as we can expect in console unless the price is pushed way up. Certainly it's in the ballpark for the upper reaches, they might get a bit better but unless a far higher percentage of the budget is going on the cooler I don't expect vastly greater performance. That was a serious bit of machining for mass production and assembly. I don't see anything more vastly exotic being affordable in mass production.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,907
Lol searching my images folder for Colbert’s graphic of CUs, clock speeds, flops.

So would it have to be 36 CU for BC or 40? 40 with 4 off or 44 with 4 off?

Either way I think with 16GB, far better CPUs, and a 9Tflop Navi GPU (and SSD!) next gen will be a revelation. I think people are sleeping on how big an upgrade it could be.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
1,368
St Kitts
You should game on PC than.
A PC with a 9.2TF GPU and some sort of CPU, case, PSU, storage and RAM will set him back over $750. And thats before he buys a keyboard and mouse and an OS.
Lol searching my images folder for Colbert’s graphic of CUs, clock speeds, flops.

So would it have to be 36 CU for BC or 40? 40 with 4 off or 44 with 4 off?

Either way I think with 16GB, far better CPUs, and a 9Tflop Navi GPU (and SSD!) next gen will be a revelation. I think people are sleeping on how big an upgrade it could be.
BC has nothing to d with the CU count.

If its 36CU, that's because it's based on the 40CU 5700XT and disabling 4CU to improve yields.
 

Cake Boss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,140
So are we gonna take this quote literally and seriously?

At E3 2019, Microsoft gave the world its first peek at the next generation of Xbox, codenamed Project Scarlett. While the company didn't showcase any of the actual hardware, it did reveal a few tantalizing tidbits about the system. We know it'll boast a solid state drive (much like Sony's PS5) and will be approximately four times as powerful as the Xbox One X--the machine that's currently the most powerful game console on the market.