Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT6| - Mostly Fan Noise and Hot Air

[SeanMN]

This, unfortunately, is a sad and prevalent misconception. Its like people forget that sony is first and foremost a hardware company. There really is nothing mindblowing about MS hardware design with the XB1X. Its simply using a vapor chamber cooling solution (which for all its worth probably cost no more than $20 than whatever sony used). And n the same sized box, a vapor camber blower solution is better than a blower normal fin solution every day. Sony just did hat they thought they needed to do and nothing more.

nd as it stands, a vapor chamber is an absolute minimum either of them will go with, but unlike MS, at least sony has patents out ow for a "fancy custom cooling" and MS does not. So I reall don't know why you would think MS will be the ones using a custom fancy cooler lol. Not saying they won't, just saying there is more to suggest that it would be sony that does it than MS. Unless you consider a vapor chamber as fancy custom cooling.... its not.

Click to shrink...

While there may be nothing fancy about a vapor chamber in the PC world, there's only one console which has implemented it, and as it stands that's the most "advanced" cooling solution seen on a console to date. Patents are important, but so is practical application, and the ability to iterate upon past successes. This gen MS has pushed higher clocks on both CPU and GPU (significantly so on the 1X) while also having quieter consoles.

Edit: based on the Gonzalo/Oberon leaks, I do currently expect PS5 to feature higher GPU clocks than Scarlett. Commenting on the general capability of each company in regards to cooling.

Variable Rate Shading (VRS) is a feature many (including myself) expect on both consoles, even though it's not present in the current iteration of Navi. Only Microsoft has a patent on it. Does this mean PS5 won't feature it?

Also, I think it's time to end the "Sony is a hardware company" line. Sony and Microsoft both have well respected hardware divisions, among other areas they work in.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Variable Rate Shading (VRS) is a feature many (including myself) expect on both consoles, even though it's not present in the current iteration of Navi. Only Microsoft has a patent on it. Does this mean PS5 won't feature it?

Click to shrink...

Doesn't matter, this feature is strony overhyped in this thread. There are many other reconstruction techniques (like in new Call of duty) that gives big performance improvement with not so much noticable downgrade.

 

[Miniature Kaiju]

While there may be nothing fancy about a vapor chamber in the PC world, there's only one console which has implemented it, and as it stands that's the most "advanced" cooling solution seen on a console to date.

Click to shrink...

VC are about as "advanced" as heat pipes, that have been used before. They just do different things (and sometimes are even combined in a cooling assembly because of that).

 

[Olaf]

Another couple of PS5 benchmarks leaked.
1) Gonzalo: Firestrike score of >20,000 overall.
2) Flute: CPU benchmark. On par with Ryzen 1700x. Smaller/weaker CPU, but that bodes well for the GPU since firestrike is very dependent on CPU.
3) Third leak showed a new GPU called Oberon. Also a shakespeare character like Flute and Gonzalo. Had three different clockspeeds. The first two matched clockspeeds of PS4 and PS4 Pro and third one was at 2.0 ghz. higher than the RX5700XT.
4) Ex gaming journalist, long time gaffer and former west coast editor of EGM, showed up and said he saw a next gen game that looked so good he couldnt believe it. Also said how PS5 and X2 are both over 9.2 tflops.

No one is winning just yet. Both Cerny and Phil are unwilling to reveal their tflops count which means they neither is confident they have the most powerful console.

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Thank you for this information.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

"Boost mode" is how all games on the Xbox One X run. It just means that the frame rate can take advantage of the more powerful hardware. There's just no toggle to turn it off like Sony has.

To increase resolution takes a lot more work for games that were not designed to take advantage of higher resolutions. This is the work that Microsoft put into the Xbox 360 games that were Xbox One X enhanced and ran at 4k.

Click to shrink...

That is why i said with more options well at least for PS4 games .
Like maybe more res or AA , loading etc etc since that is the only system we know PS5 BC with .

 

[msia2k75]

this was leaked in April 2018. We all think it's fake because of spelling errors. But they could also be intentional to weed out the leaks.

Does this look fake to you? Is the tflops number too high?

It was leaked inn April 2018. I always thought that if they were planning on launching in 2019, it would've been an 8 tflops gpu.

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This is obviously fake... I mean even the RTX 2080 Ti doesnt have 14tf...

 

[DriftingSpirit]

The last two pages.

🤭

 

[Gusy]

I loved when we used to measure power with how many polygons per second the hardware could handle. I remember being blown away reading about the Emotion Engine (PS2) being able to push more than 60 million flat shaded polygons per second. Obviously the way to measure changed a lot over time, but I still think is a great way to visualize how complex can we get these games looking with a playable framerate. With that said:

Does anyone here has any idea the polygon per second pushing capabilities of current gen (ps4pro , xb1x) ??

How about an estimate for a Navi, 9.2 RDNA tflops graphics chip?

PLEASE Era I need to know!!

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

If someone wants to write a post actually discussing GamePass wrt to MS's next-gen strategy they can go right ahead with no objection from me.

A post, however, that purely consists of "I love GamePass, it makes me moist" is going to rightly face derision, not because it's about GamePass, but because its off topic.

 

[Kleegamefan]

I don't plan to go back and forth any more on this topic after this post, but the actual content of my post below that caused certain people to basically attack me and talk about PR shill this and that is below. I am appreciative that others have chimed in to support everyone being able to share their opinions freely on here, but it is not healthy at all for this thread or forum to have posters get ganged up on for a simple post such as the one below where I even freaking ended it with the fact that I will likely end up getting a PS5 too at some point (have always bought all the consoles).

Click to shrink...

Are you open to speaking about a slightly different subject?

How to do feel about X019 in London this year?

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/after-e3-and-scarlett-reveal-more-xbox-news-coming/1100-6467736/

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Does anyone here has any idea the polygon per second pushing capabilities of current gen (ps4pro , xb1x) ??

How about an estimate for a Navi, 9.2 RDNA tflops graphics chip?

PLEASE Era I need to know!!

Click to shrink...

If you asking about maximal theoretical polygon number I think navi is the same as gcn so 4 triangles per clock. Xbox one x clock is 1132mhz, ps pro 911mhz and there are some indications that ps5 will be 2000mhz
edit: I probably wrong here, it depands of shader engines number

 

[sleepr]

Another couple of PS5 benchmarks leaked.
1) Gonzalo: Firestrike score of >20,000 overall.
2) Flute: CPU benchmark. On par with Ryzen 1700x. Smaller/weaker CPU, but that bodes well for the GPU since firestrike is very dependent on CPU.
3) Third leak showed a new GPU called Oberon. Also a shakespeare character like Flute and Gonzalo. Had three different clockspeeds. The first two matched clockspeeds of PS4 and PS4 Pro and third one was at 2.0 ghz. higher than the RX5700XT.
4) Ex gaming journalist, long time gaffer and former west coast editor of EGM, showed up and said he saw a next gen game that looked so good he couldnt believe it. Also said how PS5 and X2 are both over 9.2 tflops.

No one is winning just yet. Both Cerny and Phil are unwilling to reveal their tflops count which means they neither is confident they have the most powerful console.

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Do you have the links for those in point 4? Thank you.

 

[AegonSnake]

Do you have the links for those in point 4? Thank you.

Click to shrink...

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...ise-and-hot-air.129193/page-113#post-23604471

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...ise-and-hot-air.129193/page-113#post-23604002

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...ise-and-hot-air.129193/page-113#post-23604045

 

[sleepr]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...ise-and-hot-air.129193/page-113#post-23604471

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...ise-and-hot-air.129193/page-113#post-23604002

https://www.resetera.com/threads/ne...ise-and-hot-air.129193/page-113#post-23604045

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Thank you very much! ;)

 

[Gedi]

Nah. Nothing else to say, really.

I'll be going back to California in October so maybe I will have some new news at that time.

Dunno.

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Hmm... so what third party developers are based in or around California?

 

[Kleegamefan]

Hmm... so what third party developers are based in or around California?

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Is that a serious question?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_game_companies_based_in_California

That is just a partial list.

 

[Gedi]

Is that a serious question?

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Just a bit of fun. Yeah I get that sillicon valley is there so it's not short of options but genuinely I wouldn't have a clue whether BioWare or Infinity Ward etc are there are not. I wasn't seriously expecting to narrow it down to one though! 😆

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

What's likely is that they had several development tracks going on simultaneously and, at that point, they had to decide which path go down and start working on actual hardware stuff. TSMC started doing risk production runs on DUV 7nm in early 2017, so that's likely the first point in time where Sony got solid numbers on perf. If they wanted to hit 2019, they had to commit to it then.

Click to shrink...

I agree. The early risk production on TSMC DUV 7nm would have more likely informed expected transistor density which would have been crucial to the APU design (e.g. number of CUs, overall die size estimations).

For performance, they would have run simulations of the design and make some educated guesses about the process parameters affecting the design, so they would have a good idea of where the performance they're gunning for would land; at least a ballpark range.

My personal INTERPRETATION is that SIE planned for their customers to easily migrate from base PS4 platform to future PS platforms (including PRO).

This is during the planning stage before PlayStation 4 launch.

After PS4 launch came the actual development and implementation stage (for BC)and this stage took longer than expected, hence the now late 2020 launch.

So the magic question I have is: once Sony committed to delay the product, did they exploit this extra time to perform any meaningful architectural design changes?

The answer to that question is what I really want to know :(

Click to shrink...

Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate that.

It does kinda make sense.

What I would argue is interesting is that it may be the point as to suggest why Sony didn't put meaningful resources on PS2/1 BC for PS4, if the team was focused on building the software platform for PS4 BC on PS5 and beyond.

I guess MS was forward thinking with their virtualisation of the XB1 OSs, so they were well ahead of Sony in that regard, and rightly enjoyed all the positive PR because of it.

 

[bcatwilly]

Are you open to speaking about a slightly different subject?

How to do feel about X019 in London this year?

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/after-e3-and-scarlett-reveal-more-xbox-news-coming/1100-6467736/

Click to shrink...

I am definitely excited that Xbox has brought back XO, and London seems like a very cool location for their XO19 event. You mentioned earlier that you thought there was a chance that some next gen information could come out at that time, did you hear something like that or just guessing based on overall timelines and the fact that Xbox is doing this event?

 

[Pheonix]

While there may be nothing fancy about a vapor chamber in the PC world, there's only one console which has implemented it, and as it stands that's the most "advanced" cooling solution seen on a console to date. Patents are important, but so is practical application, and the ability to iterate upon past successes. This gen MS has pushed higher clocks on both CPU and GPU (significantly so on the 1X) while also having quieter consoles.

Edit: based on the Gonzalo/Oberon leaks, I do currently expect PS5 to feature higher GPU clocks than Scarlett. Commenting on the general capability of each company in regards to cooling.

Variable Rate Shading (VRS) is a feature many (including myself) expect on both consoles, even though it's not present in the current iteration of Navi. Only Microsoft has a patent on it. Does this mean PS5 won't feature it?

Also, I think it's time to end the "Sony is a hardware company" line. Sony and Microsoft both have well respected hardware divisions, among other areas they work in.

Click to shrink...

ok... I'll bite.

1. There is absolutely nothing fancy about "using" a vapor chamber. It just comes down to being willing to spend more on cooling. Have you seen a standard PC cooler and a vapor chamber PC cooler? Notice they look near identical and are installed in the exact same way? Being willing to spend more on cooling is NOT "advanced". How you or anyone can't tell the difference is beyond me. And id you see the size of the OG XB1? And you wonder why it was quieter?
   
   
2. And MS pushing for higher clocks this gen was a thing of necessity and not cause they were engineering wizards. And an argument can be made that it was necessitated because MS went of building a poor system to begin with as opposed to sony's more balanced system. And that's what real engineering is about, it's not about having the best of anything or everything, its about having an al round good well balanced system. And this X thing again, the machine came out a year later, cost $100 more.... what do you expect??? Call me when both sony an MS is releasing at the same time and for the same amount of money then lets see who ha got the engineering chops then. Just saying that my money will be on Sony.
   
   
3. You may not like to hear it, but it would be folly to doubt it. Sony IS a hardware company. They have been doing it well and at scale for decades longer than MS has been doing it. That kinda experience and pedigree is nothing to scoff at. This is not to say MS can't also make great hardware... I have never said that. But this is to say anyone that says sony can't match or trump MS in hardware design is delusional.
   
   
4. VRS and MS having a patent on it aren't even in the same remote ballpark as sony having a patent on a specific type of hardware. And f you don't know the difference then I don't even know where to begin. But I will give you a hint... AMD can license the tech of VRS from MS and build it into their RDNA arch, which means that anyone that gets RDNA gets VRS. See how its different?

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Variable Rate Shading (VRS) is a feature many (including myself) expect on both consoles, even though it's not present in the current iteration of Navi. Only Microsoft has a patent on it. Does this mean PS5 won't feature it?

Click to shrink...

MS has a patent on an implementation of VRS... it's an important distinction.

You also forget that AMD has a patent on VRS too, and as it turns out AMD is doing the hardware for both.

 

[disco_potato]

While there may be nothing fancy about a vapor chamber in the PC world, there's only one console which has implemented it, and as it stands that's the most "advanced" cooling solution seen on a console to date. Patents are important, but so is practical application, and the ability to iterate upon past successes.
This gen MS has pushed higher clocks on both CPU and GPU (significantly so on the 1X) while also having quieter consoles.

Click to shrink...

A year later and for $100 more. This is pointed out and ignored every few weeks, it seems.
If I'm not mistaken, newest revision of PRO is quieter and cooler than oneX. It's not a case of sony honkering down and re-engineering the cooling. All they did was alter the fan curves/change fans to run lower rpm.

 

[Pheonix]

MS has a patent on an implementation of VRS... it's an important distinction.

You also forget that AMD has a patent on VRS too, and as it turns out AMD is doing the hardware for both.

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I really don't get people atimes... I am not trying to knock on MS, but making the X doesn't suddenly make them an authority in hardware design. Like I would never in a million years argue with anyone if they were talking about MS and software design or building an OS. Like that to me is as silly as someone arguing about sony with regards to building hardware.

 

[Jeffram]

1. You may not like to hear it, but it would be folly to doubt it. Sony IS a hardware company. They have been doing it well and at scale for decades longer than MS has been doing it. That kinda experience and pedigree is nothing to scoff at. This is not to say MS can't also make great hardware... I have never said that. But this is to say anyone that says sony can't match or trump MS in hardware design is delusional.

Click to shrink...

I think a lot of people jumped to the conclusion prematurely that Microsoft has better engineering because of the performance Gap between the X and the Pro. Obviously they sit at different price points, but you could still argue that X gives more performance per dollar than the Pro, which could be true. The things people don't consider are budget, design goals, and time. Microsoft was aiming for a paradigm shift with the X, if you look at their language from the year before it launched they were saying it wasn't of this generation, in fact generations would no longer exist. They wanted a new CPU and a new GPU, it was almost a ground up build. Sony on the other hand took the PS4, "butterfly"'d the GPU, took advantage of higher clocks allowed by the process node and added 1GB of OS memory and called it a day, in a year less time. We'll never see the breakdown, but I imagine that the budgets were drastically different between the two.

Sony, being heavily invested in Playstation and being financially stable, will definitely put their entering muscle behind the Playstation for the PS5 more than they did with the Pro or even the PS4.

 

[Deleted member 4761]

Last few pages...

 

[SharpX68K]

I think a lot of people jumped to the conclusion prematurely that Microsoft has better engineering because of the performance Gap between the X and the Pro. Obviously they sit at different price points, but you could still argue that X gives more performance per dollar than the Pro, which could be true. The things people don't consider are budget, design goals, and time. Microsoft was aiming for a paradigm shift with the X, if you look at their language from the year before it launched they were saying it wasn't of this generation, in fact generations would no longer exist. They wanted a new CPU and a new GPU, it was almost a ground up build. Sony on the other hand took the PS4, "butterfly"'d the GPU, took advantage of higher clocks allowed by the process node and added 1GB of OS memory and called it a day, in a year less time. We'll never see the breakdown, but I imagine that the budgets were drastically different between the two.

Sony, being heavily invested in Playstation and being financially stable, will definitely put their entering muscle behind the Playstation for the PS5 more than they did with the Pro or even the PS4.

Click to shrink...

Well said.

 

[chris 1515]

While there may be nothing fancy about a vapor chamber in the PC world, there's only one console which has implemented it, and as it stands that's the most "advanced" cooling solution seen on a console to date. Patents are important, but so is practical application, and the ability to iterate upon past successes. This gen MS has pushed higher clocks on both CPU and GPU (significantly so on the 1X) while also having quieter consoles.

Edit: based on the Gonzalo/Oberon leaks, I do currently expect PS5 to feature higher GPU clocks than Scarlett. Commenting on the general capability of each company in regards to cooling.

Variable Rate Shading (VRS) is a feature many (including myself) expect on both consoles, even though it's not present in the current iteration of Navi. Only Microsoft has a patent on it. Does this mean PS5 won't feature it?

Also, I think it's time to end the "Sony is a hardware company" line. Sony and Microsoft both have well respected hardware divisions, among other areas they work in.

Click to shrink...

AMD has a patent on it...

 

[Super Barrier]

I think a lot of people jumped to the conclusion prematurely that Microsoft has better engineering because of the performance Gap between the X and the Pro. Obviously they sit at different price points, but you could still argue that X gives more performance per dollar than the Pro, which could be true. The things people don't consider are budget, design goals, and time. Microsoft was aiming for a paradigm shift with the X, if you look at their language from the year before it launched they were saying it wasn't of this generation, in fact generations would no longer exist. They wanted a new CPU and a new GPU, it was almost a ground up build. Sony on the other hand took the PS4, "butterfly"'d the GPU, took advantage of higher clocks allowed by the process node and added 1GB of OS memory and called it a day, in a year less time. We'll never see the breakdown, but I imagine that the budgets were drastically different between the two.

Sony, being heavily invested in Playstation and being financially stable, will definitely put their entering muscle behind the Playstation for the PS5 more than they did with the Pro or even the PS4.

Click to shrink...

This is a good neutral response rather than antagonize. Thank you.

 

[thuway]

I think a lot of people jumped to the conclusion prematurely that Microsoft has better engineering because of the performance Gap between the X and the Pro. Obviously they sit at different price points, but you could still argue that X gives more performance per dollar than the Pro, which could be true. The things people don't consider are budget, design goals, and time. Microsoft was aiming for a paradigm shift with the X, if you look at their language from the year before it launched they were saying it wasn't of this generation, in fact generations would no longer exist. They wanted a new CPU and a new GPU, it was almost a ground up build. Sony on the other hand took the PS4, "butterfly"'d the GPU, took advantage of higher clocks allowed by the process node and added 1GB of OS memory and called it a day, in a year less time. We'll never see the breakdown, but I imagine that the budgets were drastically different between the two.

Sony, being heavily invested in Playstation and being financially stable, will definitely put their entering muscle behind the Playstation for the PS5 more than they did with the Pro or even the PS4.

Click to shrink...

FACTS

 

[AegonSnake]

ok... I'll bite.

1. There is absolutely nothing fancy about "using" a vapor chamber. It just comes down to being willing to spend more on cooling. Have you seen a standard PC cooler and a vapor chamber PC cooler? Notice they look near identical and are installed in the exact same way? Being willing to spend more on cooling is NOT "advanced". How you or anyone can't tell the difference is beyond me. And id you see the size of the OG XB1? And you wonder why it was quieter?
   
   
2. And MS pushing for higher clocks this gen was a thing of necessity and not cause they were engineering wizards. And an argument can be made that it was necessitated because MS went of building a poor system to begin with as opposed to sony's more balanced system. And that's what real engineering is about, it's not about having the best of anything or everything, its about having an al round good well balanced system. And this X thing again, the machine came out a year later, cost $100 more.... what do you expect??? Call me when both sony an MS is releasing at the same time and for the same amount of money then lets see who ha got the engineering chops then. Just saying that my money will be on Sony.
   
   
3. You may not like to hear it, but it would be folly to doubt it. Sony IS a hardware company. They have been doing it well and at scale for decades longer than MS has been doing it. That kinda experience and pedigree is nothing to scoff at. This is not to say MS can't also make great hardware... I have never said that. But this is to say anyone that says sony can't match or trump MS in hardware design is delusional.
   
   
4. VRS and MS having a patent on it aren't even in the same remote ballpark as sony having a patent on a specific type of hardware. And f you don't know the difference then I don't even know where to begin. But I will give you a hint... AMD can license the tech of VRS from MS and build it into their RDNA arch, which means that anyone that gets RDNA gets VRS. See how its different?

Click to shrink...

For the record, the GPU sony went with was very similar to the RX480 (same number of active CUs) which AMD clocked at 1.26 ghz to get 5.8 tflops. If Sony had gone with vapor chamber cooling and clocked their GPU at 1.172 then they couldve had a 5.4 tflops GPU a year early for under $499.

they knew of MS' tflops count 6 months before they launched, and 5 months before they revealed the Pro and didnt change their mind on it. I think they went all in on checkboarding and thought 4.2 tflops would be good enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Radeon_400_series

i think they just wanted a for profit console out in 2016. That explains the low bandwidth RAM, lack of UHD and/or vapor chamber cooling.

 

[SeanMN]

ok... I'll bite.

Click to shrink...

There is absolutely nothing fancy about "using" a vapor chamber. It just comes down to being willing to spend more on cooling. Have you seen a standard PC cooler and a vapor chamber PC cooler? Notice they look near identical and are installed in the exact same way? Being willing to spend more on cooling is NOT "advanced". How you or anyone can't tell the difference is beyond me.

Click to shrink...

My only point in this regard is: the cooling on the 1x is better / more capable / more advanced than what is featured on any Playstation console. Never did I say it was fancy though. I'm talking about game consoles, not PCs.

And MS pushing for higher clocks this gen was a thing of necessity and not cause they were engineering wizards. And an argument can be made that it was necessitated because MS went of building a poor system to begin with as opposed to sony's more balanced system. And that's what real engineering is about, it's not about having the best of anything or everything, its about having an al round good well balanced system. And this X thing again, the machine came out a year later, cost $100 more.... what do you expect??? Call me when both sony an MS is releasing at the same time and for the same amount of money then lets see who ha got the engineering chops then. Just saying that my money will be on Sony.

Click to shrink...

I agree that higher clocks on vanilla XB1 were about minimizing the performance gap. But even the 1S has higher GPU clocks than the PS4 Pro. During the PS360 era I don't recall the $100 and 1 year being thrown around nearly as much as it has these last 2 years - and that's a situation where the earlier, cheaper (Microsoft) console was more capable more often than not. When I look at the Pro, I see a console that could've been pushed harder. PS4 Pro and X1X are direct competitors in the market today regardless of when they were released, and I'm comparing them as such. I absolutely expect the higher priced console to perform better. Price of the console is a factor, but when you buy a 3rd party game today it's likely to have an edge on the 1X, because it's superior hardware. There's a lot of volatility regarding what next gen prices could be, so at this time I'm focusing on absolute capability of direct competitors next gen, regardless of price.

You may not like to hear it, but it would be folly to doubt it. Sony IS a hardware company. They have been doing it well and at scale for decades longer than MS has been doing it. That kinda experience and pedigree is nothing to scoff at. This is not to say MS can't also make great hardware... I have never said that. But this is to say anyone that says sony can't match or trump MS in hardware design is delusional.

Click to shrink...

I'm not scoffing at the history of Sony. When that statement is made, it's typically done with the tone that Sony has superior hardware engineering capability (Best vs great). I don't think think that's true. I think either is capable of surpassing the other; there hasn't been a consistent trend of one over the other - they've been pushing each other and there have been wins on both sides.

VRS and MS having a patent on it aren't even in the same remote ballpark as sony having a patent on a specific type of hardware. And f you don't know the difference then I don't even know where to begin. But I will give you a hint... AMD can license the tech of VRS from MS and build it into their RDNA arch, which means that anyone that gets RDNA gets VRS. See how its different?

Click to shrink...

My point with that statement was more about patents in general. Not everything with a patent gets implemented, not every engineering design gets a patent. Patents (and their applications) are public, and there are downsides to this. MS not having a discovered patent for a cooling solution doesn't mean they're not capable of implementing high performance cooling solution on par or better than the competition in their next console.

AMD has a patent on it...

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I never said they didn't.

 

[Deleted member 22750]

is 8-10tf still a good guess?

I haven't posted or read anything here in months. Just guessing by how everything was going I'm guessing people are at 12tf by now.

 

[SublimeAnarky]

My nominee for the next OT

|OT7| The Thuway Thirst Train (Non DM Adventures!)

Forgive me thuway .

 

[thuway]

My nominee for the next OT

|OT7| The Thuway Thirst Train (Non DM Adventures!)

Forgive me thuway .

Click to shrink...

My thirst for next gen hardware is at maximum :D. Low key I'm not offended it's all fun in here :).

 

[Firmus_Anguis]

This won't make the cut - Still fun though!

|OT7| I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Zen-chips on fire off the shoulder of Oberon. I watched Ray-beams glitter in the dark near the Baldur's gate. All those threads - lost in time, like tears in rain...

 

[pixelation]

As games grow more complex, are we expecting devs to churn out even less games than they did this gen?. Look at ND as an example, back in the PS3 days they made 4 games and for PS4 they'll only make 2... and half another.

 

[Lausebub]

This won't make the cut - Still fun though!

|OT7| I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Zen-chips on fire off the shoulder of Oberon. I watched Ray-beams glitter in the dark near the Baldur's gate. All those threads - lost in time, like tears in rain...

Click to shrink...

My favorite so far.

 

[Pheonix]

My only point in this regard is: the cooling on the 1x is better / more capable / more advanced than what is featured on any Playstation console. Never did I say it was fancy though. I'm talking about game consoles, not PCs.

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And the point I (we) am making is that putting in a vapor chamber doesn't make MS engineering hardware wizards. Or even putting that in a console isn't any different than putting in any other kina cooler. It's just more expensive. If what the original argument here was that vapor chamber is better than a normal cooler? Then I doubt anyone would be saying anything about that. Of course, it is. It's more expensive. But looking at the PS4pro and the X doesn't say anything at all to sony's engineering prowess. Both companies obviously had the design goals they were trying to hit. Or you realy think sony couldn't also spend$20 more on cooling and put a vapor chamber and spend a couple more on RAM and putting in more RAM?

I agree that higher clocks on vanilla XB1 were about minimizing the performance gap. But even the 1S has higher GPU clocks than the PS4 Pro. During the PS360 era I don't recall the $100 and 1 year being thrown around nearly as much as it has these last 2 years - and that's a situation where the earlier, cheaper (Microsoft) console was more capable more often than not. When I look at the Pro, I see a console that could've been pushed harder. PS4 Pro and X1X are direct competitors in the market today regardless of when they were released, and I'm comparing them as such. I absolutely expect the higher priced console to perform better. Price of the console is a factor, but when you buy a 3rd party game today it's likely to have an edge on the 1X, because it's superior hardware. There's a lot of volatility regarding what next-gen prices could be, so at this time I'm focusing on absolute capability of direct competitors next gen, regardless of price.

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No one is arguing about the superiority of the X over the Pro. The case here being made is why. And again, the why isn't indicative of MS being better at making hardware than Sony. Its a number of factors. None of which says that dollar for dollar, and released at the same time, MS is more likely to make better hardware than sony.

And the PS3 was really great hardware too... over-engineered even. The issue was that it was difficult to work with, because of its extremely customized nature. Funny enough something soy did with the PS2 but managed to get away with it. And if you really wanna talk about the PS360? Then you have to talk about RROD. And that's a literal definition of poorly engineered hardware.

I'm not scoffing at the history of Sony. When that statement is made, it's typically done with the tone that Sony has superior hardware engineering capability (Best vs great). I don't think think that's true. I think either is capable of surpassing the other; there hasn't been a consistent trend of one over the other - they've been pushing each other and there have been wins on both sides.

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Again, I didn't and have never said MS isn't capable of making great hardware. Nor have I said that sony is the best and will always be. All I have sad is that Sony is a hardware company primarily, and MS is a software company primarily. And there is a lot of evidence to suggest that sony is more likely to innovate on the hardware side of things than MS. And I am not gonna give you a list, you can make of this as you choose.

My point with that statement was more about patents in general. Not everything with a patent gets implemented, not every engineering design gets a patent. Patents (and their applications) are public, and there are downsides to this. MS not having a discovered patent for a cooling solution doesn't mean they're not capable of implementing high performance cooling solution on par or better than the competition in their next console.

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This whole patent and cooling stuff came up cause (i don't know if it was you) someone said that MS is more likely to be the ones to innovate on cooling and not sony and used the X as a reference point. That is totally wrong. MS is just as likely to do something with cooling, no one is dismissing that, but to say is more likely to do it than sony is kinda flawed reasoning. Especially if the legs of that argument is the X vs the Pro.

 

[Jaypah]

That Gamepass discussion doesn't seem so bad now...

 

[STech]

Kleegamefan thank you for your time and insightful info, we really appreciate your help.

Everything you can tell will be more than welcome but if you don't know more or you can't tell without compromise your source I still be very grateful for your contribution.

 

[Miniature Kaiju]

I think there's no denying that MS is pretty capable of delivering pretty cool tech with clever design and top notch engineering. What they've done with HoloLens, for instance, is crazy, they've pushed what's pretty limited tech - waveguides - to its limit. Original Surfaces that used amorphous magnesium for the chassi, pretty fucking ballsy stuff, even if it proved to be a manufacturing nightmare.

Xbox One X ain't it, though.

 

[gremlinz1982]

And the point I (we) am making is that putting in a vapor chamber doesn't make MS engineering hardware wizards. Or even putting that in a console isn't any different than putting in any other kina cooler. It's just more expensive. If what the original argument here was that vapor chamber is better than a normal cooler? Then I doubt anyone would be saying anything about that. Of course, it is. It's more expensive. But looking at the PS4pro and the X doesn't say anything at all to sony's engineering prowess. Both companies obviously had the design goals they were trying to hit. Or you realy think sony couldn't also spend$20 more on cooling and put a vapor chamber and spend a couple more on RAM and putting in more RAM?

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The beauty of the Xbox One X was not simply the cooling system, it was the Hovis method. Having a higher clocked console that ran silent.

No one is arguing about the superiority of the X over the Pro. The case here being made is why. And again, the why isn't indicative of MS being better at making hardware than Sony. Its a number of factors. None of which says that dollar for dollar, and released at the same time, MS is more likely to make better hardware than sony.

Click to shrink...

And the PS3 was really great hardware too... over-engineered even. The issue was that it was difficult to work with, because of its extremely customized nature. Funny enough something soy did with the PS2 but managed to get away with it. And if you really wanna talk about the PS360? Then you have to talk about RROD. And that's a literal definition of poorly engineered hardware.

Again, I didn't and have never said MS isn't capable of making great hardware. Nor have I said that sony is the best and will always be. All I have sad is that Sony is a hardware company primarily, and MS is a software company primarily. And there is a lot of evidence to suggest that sony is more likely to innovate on the hardware side of things than MS. And I am not gonna give you a list, you can make of this as you choose.

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Nintendo has the joycon issue.
Microsoft had RRoD.
Sony had the disc read issue with the Playstation 2.....eventually settling a class action lawsuit. The PlayStation 3 settlement around the Linux OS issue.

History is littered with such examples.

 

[Astra Planeta]

This, unfortunately, is a sad and prevalent misconception. Its like people forget that sony is first and foremost a hardware company. There really is nothing mindblowing about MS hardware design with the XB1X. Its simply using a vapor chamber cooling solution (which for all its worth probably cost no more than $20 than whatever sony used). And n the same sized box, a vapor camber blower solution is better than a blower normal fin solution every day. Sony just did hat they thought they needed to do and nothing more.

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How is it a misconception? I mean my X is quiet as a mouse and more powerful than the Pro to boot, the pro sounds like it will take off when I play god of war. The X is also smaller. The OG xbox is quiet and the OG PS4 is hot and loud as well.

Sony does not seem to design hardware that well, the PS1 and PS2 had optical drive issues, the PS3 had the YLOD, and OG PS4 and the pro are hot and loud.

Id wager the PS5 slim will be the one to get, the launch is probably going to have the same issues the others have.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

The beauty of the Xbox One X was not simply the cooling system, it was the Hovis method. Having a higher clocked console that ran silent.

Nintendo has the joycon issue.
Microsoft had RRoD.
Sony had the disc read issue with the Playstation 2.....eventually settling a class action lawsuit. The PlayStation 3 settlement around the Linux OS issue.

History is littered with such examples.

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OtherOS had nothing to do with hardware .
Still if both MS and Sony going for $500 i expect some nice hardware from both .

 

[gremlinz1982]

OtherOS had nothing to do with hardware .
Still if both MS and Sony going for $500 i expect some nice hardware from both .

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My point was that if you really want to see how these companies mess up, then it is not hard to find something wrong. People keep pulling 'Sony is a hardware company' as if it is something that makes them infallible. It doesn't, and the main reason I did not mention them settling class action lawsuits on Xperia and VAIO was because that was not gaming related.

They screw up just as much as anyone else in the hardware space if not more.

 

[Pheonix]

How is it a misconception? I mean my X is quiet as a mouse and more powerful than the Pro to boot, the pro sounds like it will take off when I play god of war. The X is also smaller. The OG xbox is quiet and the OG PS4 is hot and loud as well.

Sony does not seem to design hardware that well, the PS1 and PS2 had optical drive issues, the PS3 had the YLOD, and OG PS4 and the pro are hot and loud.

Id wager the PS5 slim will be the one to get, the launch is probably going to have the same issues the others have.

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I would answer you, but I fear we have collectively derailed the thread too much (even though we technically are talking about hardware).... so lets just leave it all alone.

My point was that if you really want to see how these companies mess up, then it is not hard to find something wrong. People keep pulling 'Sony is a hardware company' as if it is something that makes them infallible. It doesn't, and the main reason I did not mention them settling class action lawsuits on Xperia and VAIO was because that was not gaming related.

They screw up just as much as anyone else in the hardware space if not more.

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I am sorry, but from a hardware standpoint, no one has messed up like MS did with the 360 and RROD. But again, lets just leave it alone. This is becoming less and less about next gen hardware as we go on.

 

[AegonSnake]

As games grow more complex, are we expecting devs to churn out even less games than they did this gen?. Look at ND as an example, back in the PS3 days they made 4 games and for PS4 they'll only make 2... and half another.

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a lot of sony studios were in development hell at the start of this gen. uncharted 4 lost both its creative and gameplay directors within a few weeks of each other. Neil had to take over and that meant putting tlou2 on hold. stig and his team at SSM had their game cancelled after 4 years in development. Even guerrila games wasted 6 whole months making a vampire shooter AFTER deciding to work on horizon and went back to horizon because theyrealized how much they liked horizon instead.

sony made a lot of poor decisions probably because they didnt believe they would be so successful this gen. releasing gow ascension, beyond, tlou, gt6 all on the ps3 the year ps4 launched with no next gen versions was a collosally stupid idea. gt6 even launched after the ps3 launched. they also shut down 4-5 studios like zipper, incognito, gg cambridge and evolution studios which meant more work and pressure on other studios to deliver.

They also didnt seem to expand their studios that much. I remember how Naughty Dog went from 75 people working on Uncharted to 150 for U2 and almost 200 for U3 and TLOU. Then nothing since. SSM went through a lot of restructoring and laid off like 50 employees after cancelling Stig's game. that came back to bite them in the ass because GoW ended up taking 5 years. they seemed to believe 100 person studios like Bend and Sucker Punch would be enough to make next gen games fast but 5-6 year dev cycles for Ghost of Tshushima and Days Gone have hopefully convinced them they were wrong.

Thankfully, all of that seems to be changing. they are looking to acquire new studios and are hiring a lot of new devs at existing studios. GG might actually have two teams again and Cory also seems to heading a new team at SSM. There is a new studio in San Diego as well. As teams get bigger, they will be able to make games quicker. AC, BF and CoD teams are on 2-3 year cycles and seem to be doing fine so far. the only difference is that they stocked up on talent while Sony was busy shutting down and gutting studios at the start of this gen.

 

[bear force one]

Hey how bout them next gen consoles!

 

[gundamkyoukai]

a lot of sony studios were in development hell at the start of this gen. uncharted 4 lost both its creative and gameplay directors within a few weeks of each other. Neil had to take over and that meant putting tlou2 on hold. stig and his team at SSM had their game cancelled after 4 years in development. Even guerrila games wasted 6 whole months making a vampire shooter AFTER deciding to work on horizon and went back to horizon because theyrealized how much they liked horizon instead.

sony made a lot of poor decisions probably because they didnt believe they would be so successful this gen. releasing gow ascension, beyond, tlou, gt6 all on the ps3 the year ps4 launched with no next gen versions was a collosally stupid idea. gt6 even launched after the ps3 launched. they also shut down 4-5 studios like zipper, incognito, gg cambridge and evolution studios which meant more work and pressure on other studios to deliver.

They also didnt seem to expand their studios that much. I remember how Naughty Dog went from 75 people working on Uncharted to 150 for U2 and almost 200 for U3 and TLOU. Then nothing since. SSM went through a lot of restructoring and laid off like 50 employees after cancelling Stig's game. that came back to bite them in the ass because GoW ended up taking 5 years. they seemed to believe 100 person studios like Bend and Sucker Punch would be enough to make next gen games fast but 5-6 year dev cycles for Ghost of Tshushima and Days Gone have hopefully convinced them they were wrong.

Thankfully, all of that seems to be changing. they are looking to acquire new studios and are hiring a lot of new devs at existing studios. GG might actually have two teams again and Cory also seems to heading a new team at SSM. There is a new studio in San Diego as well. As teams get bigger, they will be able to make games quicker. AC, BF and CoD teams are on 2-3 year cycles and seem to be doing fine so far. the only difference is that they stocked up on talent while Sony was busy shutting down and gutting studios at the start of this gen.

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AegonSnake half of this post is full with wrong information .
For eg ND were over 300 people when they were working on UC4 and even more with TLL .
Another eg is that a small team was working on a new IP at GG while the rest were working on KZ SF you can't say there was much waste time there.
Also GOW end up taking them that long since it was a total reboot and they talk about this and many other things in the GOW doc .

 

[Andromeda]

Can we please let's get back to predicting nextgen specs ? :P

I just want to know if the target specs given to devs are double digits or not.