Oh yeah, there were people that thoughts that hardware accelerated doesn't mean dedicated hw for rt ;)
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT6| - Mostly Fan Noise and Hot Air
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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I expect it'll be a fairly different implementation. nVidi's RTX has elements that are not accessible to devs and therefore needs to be the same for every game. I expect the consoles will allow for a greater degree of control and customization but probably won't accelerate the process as much.
None of us know for sure the specific implementation of ray tracing in Xbox Scarlett or PS5, but Xbox has definitely been more bold in discussing the capability with a "hardware accelerated ray tracing" reference in the E3 Scarlett reveal video and now a first party developer from the Coalitions saying that "dedicated RT cores will be huge". Just because they both have some level of hardware support for ray tracing doesn't mean that they are equivalent in how much is actually "dedicated" to this capability in the silicon/die space or in the full architectural pipeline/workflow approach to ray tracing.
Yeah, watching the DF PC video it looks like The Coalition future proofed Gears 5 for when Scarlett drops.
Considering what it looks like on the X I can only imagine how incredible it'll look on Scarlett!
Yeah, the game is crazy how good it looks at 4K AND 60 FPS. I fully expect a Scarlett version that gets up there with that best in class PC graphics level.
Some interesting thoughts from Digital Foundry on the Gears 5 PC version and Scarlett - https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-gears-5-pc-analysis-a-taste-of-next-gen-today
I'll be extremely interested to see how both consoles handle these late-gen games. It's seeming like a safe bet that Gears 5 and forward should see Scarlett patches to improve the game and keep it relevant.
With Sony, I'm not quite sure how they'd handle Death Stranding, TLOU Part II, and GoT. As a consumer, I'd love to just have free upgrades for those titles as well. Especially when PS5 is already confirmed to have backwards compatibility.
I just hope that neither console-maker decides to charge for said enhancements.
The dev later recanted and said he was assuming, and that he was not a source. Matt , however, has confirmed RT HW for both.
The dev was honestly just covering his tracks at that point due to NDA. Since the tweet was already recorded and spread, there was no point just deleting it, but addressed it in a follow-up.
First party devs would have had the first devkits long ago.
Would be an interesting scenario to see where one had a machine with RT cores and the other didn't but had overall more beefy GPU.
Not happening but it prolly would provide some additional headaches to devs.
Not happening but it prolly would provide some additional headaches to devs.
originally i believed that it was just a mistake from the ND developer, but seeing how far sony have went on a developer that just mentioned they have kits, maybe sony made them backtrack from that statement.
Is that tweet still up or did they take it down?
Yeah, talked to a dev friend and he said that RTX API isn't super flexible and/or transparent. Apparently they were trying to do use it on a voxelized pipeline and had to get quite a bit... hacky, with it. Not optimal.
Hopefully whatever AMD is doing with their implementation is more open and flexible, as hardware stuff generally benefits from it. Cerny highlighting audio uses for their RT stuff gives me hope.
there are people here who will try to downplay a 14 tflops console. just watch.
we are already seeing seeds being planted. fewer dedicated RT cores, RDNA vs RDNA2. it will happen.
As far I am concerned they only said that it was hardware accelerated and not how it was implemented. I know no statement that talked about "dedicated RT cores"!
fixed it for you. You cannot downplay the actual spec ... 14TF is better than 10TF ... but that doesn't mean 14TF is realistic ....
I agree that this is likely, but it should at least be caveated when mentioned.
Heads up:
The Gamestop article with the "dedicated RT cores" quote is probably subject to change. Presumably it will change into "dedicated RT hardware" ...
The Gamestop article with the "dedicated RT cores" quote is probably subject to change. Presumably it will change into "dedicated RT hardware" ...
Is this an assumption by you, or has the author said somewhere they're editing this part?
Yes. And next gen having dedicated HW can be as simple as accelerating what current engines already do - allowing them to be expanded in next gen engines. Doesn't necessarily mean 2080 style big chunks of RT translators on the die
Let me say it that way, you can blame me for it, the moment it happens ...
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"Polaris vs Tahiti sees a 28 per cent increase in compute power, despite identical levels of rated compute and memory bandwidth. Navi vs Polaris sees another leap of the same magnitude." very close to my 1.25x result perf/per tflop rx5700xt vs rx580 that I calculated using techpowerup 4k avarage performance
Sorry for that. But this was BREAKING NEWS for this thread ;)
It's kind of hard to downplay numbers that nobody knows.. To your point, if hypothetically the consoles are similar to each other in TF and 1 edges out the other in TF, it could be true that the lower flop machine could produce better results in reality if it had more advanced hardware features. We just won't know till we know both these machines and see what devs do with them. It is certainly possible though.
Because of the todays news I will re-initiate the Endless Cycle Committee!
We are open for business again!
We are open for business again!
So we don't know how RT in next gen consoles will be but scarlet will be better?
Because I am pretty sure that because someone talks about something more doesn't mean their approach is better or even different. You just took one possibility of three and ran with it.
What I do know is that both MS and Sony are getting their silicon from the same source. I believe that AMDs implementation of RT in their RDNA architecture will be as integral as they have SEs and WGPs...etc. So basically, its either going to be on an SE level or a WGP level. If its the former then both consoles will have identical RT capability barring clock differences, if its the latter than whoever has More WGPs and/or higher clocks will have a proportionally better RT capability.
I say "capability" cause having the hardware doesn't necessarily mean it will be managed and implemented the same way across platforms... and neither you or I can possibly know whose implementation will be better. And unless MS knows exactly what and how sony is gonna do theirs? All their confident talk means absolutely nothing.
It like people that seem to think sonys SSD implementation will be better simply because sony has talked about it more.
20~35% uplift in IPC from polaris to Navi, below the 39% performance increase that we were using, but seems like most of the tests were done while the memory bandwidth was downclocked.
seems like using stock memory clock lends ~10% performance improvement compared to the downclocked, so i think this is why the IPC seems lower.
seems like using stock memory clock lends ~10% performance improvement compared to the downclocked, so i think this is why the IPC seems lower.
My post did not state in any way that Scarlett would be better with ray tracing, simply pointed out the current facts. We will all find out later about all of this in detail.
Cerny has officially confimed the PS5 to support raytracing. It's obvious he was talking about hardware raytracing and any other interpretation is only an intentional attempt to misunderstand.
Agreed, RT is an important technology for AMD. Both MS and Sony will most likely use AMD's implementation as it would be the most cost efficient solution for them. I believe it would be possible for Sony or MS to exclusively license AMD's RT implementation in the console space, but it would most likely cost them far more than what either of them are prepared to pay.
Memory bandwidth was the same as polaris and they use 1080p so bandwidth was not limiting. It's just real petf/tflop gain that I correctly calculated just from techpowerup results ;d Btw performance gain vs tahiti (ps4/xone) is very impressive.
i just came for my 9tf dose for the week, dont mess with my head yo
It's of academic interest, but you have to compare with the correct memory bandwidth. The cache structure is predicated on expecting certain BW from DDR memory.
yea but in the last page of the article they also compare to a stock memory bandwidth in crysis 3 and it gives a 10% performance increae, considering consoles will also get a bandwidth increase, i think we should consider that as an "IPC increase" for the purposes of a next gen thread (even though i agree that its not an actual architecural improvement, but we will see the same performance improvement as we wont be using the same memory bandwidths as current gen)
if we average the 1.2~1.35x performance increase we get 1.27x performance increase on same clock speed, CU and bandwidth, factoring in the 10% performance increase from the bandwidth, and we get 1.4x increase, in line with the article colbert gave us when Navi launched.
PlayStation 5 has hardware Ray Tracing (edit) hardware as well.
The only Next-gen hardware that doesn't have built in RT(yet) is Stadia
The only Next-gen hardware that doesn't have built in RT(yet) is Stadia
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- It is logical and reasonable to expect that both PS5 and Xbox Scarlett have hardware support for ray tracing.
- It is not unreasonable to think that one of the console implementations may dedicate more hardware/die space and/or overall architectural design efficiency to support ray tracing.
who could have known that when cerny was discussing the next generation console for the first time and mentioned ray tracing, that he didnt just mean a software solution that any GPU can do and rather actually hardware, you know, that he is working on?/s
thanks for reconfirming this ;p
"Microsoft's PR focus is all on the higher-spec Anaconda box but I've yet to get any firm confirmation that Lockhart has been cancelled."
Interesting...
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