It's over, Super Barrier! I have the high ground!
P.S. I agree with DriftingSpirit
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT6| - Mostly Fan Noise and Hot Air
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
- Start date
- Status
P.S. I agree with DriftingSpirit
man, imagine the meltdowns when one consoles ends up with higher tflops but the other ends up with better performance in ray traced games because they invested in more rt hardware.
It being an architecture roadmap doesn't preclude the subtext "shipping" and "in design" designators being in reference to actual products; after all a GPU architecture inherently must appear in a product for it to have any market relevance at all and it would be logically inconsistent for the GCN and RDNA1 "shipping" labels to be referencing products and the RDNA2 label to not do so.
Your argument about timing doesn't hold because 7nm+ products should be shipping's in volume next year. So the process node isn't holding the consoles back. And like I mentioned previously, if RDNA2 microarch is still in design good luck seeing any desktop products till 2022. I cannot believe AMD is that far behind on a refresh of their new GPU microarch.
Regardless, since AMD is calling RDNA2 a generational iteration on RDNA, it's simply going to encompass some feature additions which individually can be included in a console design and fabbed on N7 or the N7P node.
I can't see there being anything fundamental about the RDNA2 architectural design that makes it only possible to fab on a 7nm+ node. That's never been true for any IC design in the semi-conductor industry.
It is a little bit more complex than that, with raytracing shading power is very important. When ray intersection are done , a shader evaluation of the material to calculate the light bouncing of the material is needed. On rasterizing this is not the case when raytracing is done CU are used for doing this shader evaluation to know where the indirect lighting will bounce... Raytracing need more shader power than rasterization...
For example in the PICA PICA demo of SEED the limitation was mostly shader power...
It's true PS4 got 8 ACEs vs the GCN standard 2 ACEs which Xbox One has. That fact usually gets overlooked or forgotten.
Zen 3 is no longer "in design" phase. If they intend to release it in 2020, they must have moved past that point by now anyway.
I recommend to read the below article that somehow tells you the same thing I did about the status of the RDNA2 design. Thanks Mitchman1411 for sharing this!
As it turns out computing physx on gpu is too slow and whole gpgpu in games died
The approach is the same actually: same BVH ray traversal acceleration. The difference likely lies in how fast such traversal will be handled (AMD's approach will be slower) and how much help from general SIMDs is needed (AMD will need more of that). Considering that most gaming RT on Turings seem to be severely limited by shading before it is being limited by ray casting an approach which scales down ray casting performance may be a more efficient one for a purely gaming system (Turing's RT isn't there just for gaming in case someone is wondering). On the other hand, the need to handle more things with SIMDs will lead to an even bigger part of the process becoming limited by shading - but maybe they hope to hide this part in async compute.
This is a highly likely scenario IMO. However, what will matter a lot for RT is the differences in memory subsystems.
Turing's "RT cores" add less than 10% of transistors to an SM. A simpler solution will add even less than that. So it won't be "much bigger".
I don't see meltdowns. At the moment of purchase people will possibly know what they get.
We all know for most people here the purchase goes to the platform they prefer since ages anyway regardless of what console has the "better" specs.
This sort of scenario is likely in my opinion. These machines will be comparable, with each having minor strengths over the other.
There will not be a console that has the solitary power crown.
That's the best-case scenario IMO. I want both consoles on equal footing so that software and services can shine through.
Welcome back ... unfortunately to that you had no chance to participate in my experiment ... better for you I suppose LOL
I don't believe it has been overlooked. The performance implications of 8 ACEs comparared to 2 ACEs are in general negligible. If async CS is used to offload the CPU, 2 ACEs are sufficent for most relevant use cases and for something more advanced, for instance geometry preprocessing, the async CS launchrate of even 8 ACEs is too low.
To avoid confusion, that footage wasn't a leak, Sony allowed them to capture the footage
at least it was only 3 days. back on gaf, something small like that would earn me 2-3 months. i missed several E3s and even the whole gaf shutdown fiasco because of stuff like that.
this board does need to lighten up. whatever happened to warnings. i loved that feature.
Yep. Sony studios have done a great job with their exclusives this gen, but looking at Gears, Ryse and Sea Of Thieves, and of course most multiplatform games, the difference mostly comes down to resolution. 900p-1080p. i dont see anything fancy in Sony exclusives thats not in Xbox games. No fancy physics or anything. Death Stranding really struggles with rendering geometry in the distance too. the new footage has everything blurred out in the distance with LOD pop ins everywhere there are rocks. So those 8 ACEs didnt do much in the end.
i've been wondering if MS's shift from "most powerful" to "most immersive" may be alluding to RT.
Sony has used immersive to describe the ps5 as well. both console manufacturers are going in hard on the SSD features. quick to no loading times is going to be a marketing bullet point, hence the overuse of the term immersion. its just PR speak because they cant claim to have the most powerful console until Sony reveals their specs. i can promise you the moment they find out Sony's tflops number comes in under theirs they will go back to most powerful.
i certainly did not intent to say this was a MS only thing, dont need to reopen that can of worms.
but immersion can be interpreted in a number of ways. i'd say RT fits that bill, as do higher framerates, as do SSDs - all things MS has has talked about as a focus with scarlet. it may be PR talk, well it absolutely is, but its also informative of what these consoles are bring aside from teraflop counts. and good news as gamers
I just take the immersion talk as just the two companies not being sure which system is more powerful and wanting to be on the safe side.
It's hard to belive considering whole sources both sony and microsoft have that they don't know specs of both consoles.
Probably just too close to call spec-wise and immersive is a non-quantifiable descriptor so they can say it as much as they want.
i think its more than just a PR move to save face and avoid the power war - but whatevs. its all speculation
well, they might not know the final specs. the oberon leak suggests Sony is contuining to push the clocks. MS will be doing the same. sony had no issues revealing their tflops count last gen. the fact that they are being so secretive tells me that they either dont know what MS is capable of or they themselves havent settled on a final number.
as you know im in the camp that the 2ghz oberon clockspeed means a 14 tflops PS5 gpu, but if Sony can push the clocks so high, MS will be looking to do the same as well.
2ghz means 10tf max as tdp would skyrocket with this clock and big number of cu's
but that means it was 8.5 tflops when it was 1.85ghz. so did MS see an 8.5 tflops console and back off of their claim to set the industry standard? i doubt that very much. I think MS had an 11-12 tflops console and were caught off guard when they saw the 13 tflops rumors.
40 cu at 1.85ghz would be 9.4 tflops. my point still stands, i highly doubt MS was thinking of a 9 tflops GPU when making that bold claim last year.
I can only assume Microsoft also thought PS5 was coming this year and thought the extra year would naturally lead to more power as it did with mid-gen consoles?
Yeah I know this argument very well I just said it seems unrealistic in terms of consoles tdp constraint to put 2ghz and cu's above 40
Last edited:
I really don't think both parties don't know what the other is doing. As it stands its all about fine margins.
I think based on what either is fishing to get, and whats in the water (or will be), its kinda easy for either company to predict what the other will have. Or at least a very accurate range of performance. The only thing that will make one outright come out and say anything absolute now, is if they know they are doing something the other just isn't doing at all or can't do.
Why?
Because they can't i a cooler that can handle up to 250W TDP in a console sized box?
And that means absolutely nothing. There also hasn't been a console with an SSD in history. Or with RT hardware. Or at some point with disc media, or at some point with hard drives period, or with a vapor chamber.... I could go on.
I'll ask again, do you think its impossible for them to fit a 250w TDP cooler into a console sized form factor? You think the market and the tech still makes it prohibitively expensive?
And not saying you don't know this... but just have to be sure... you do know that having a 250W TDP cooler doesn't mean your chip has power draw of 250W right?
You are even going too far... I was just waiting for him to say its impossible so I can put up pictures of $350-$450 GPUs. Who mind you are selling there products at a sizable markup.
Would love one as well.
It's a pity we are still going in circles over next gen specs. New info cant come soon enough.
Silly argument, there hasn't been ssd or rt hardware because of technology/price limitation but power consumption is totally different thing.
No, I don't thing its impossible to create 250w or 300w console but there is also limitation in form factor (it has to be something that you can put under your tv and looks nice). Also as far as I know there is some agreement about console power limitation (http://efficientgaming.eu/)
you should read what i said again....
then again that you just said power consumption means I was right to suspect you didn't know.
Oh... and that consoles will for whatever reason never have more than 180W "power consumption" is actually what is silly here. Cause its not happened before doesn't mean it can't. Especially to the tune of the conviction with which you seem t state such a claim.
And that "agreement" also means nothing at all. That has been discussed multiple times in this thread. And again... TDP does not mean POWER CONSUMPTION!!!
Bet way I can think to show this... look at HVAC units or multizone ACs. They have compressor units rated as 12KW, 14KW, 18KW...etc for heating and cooling. But the compressor unit itself never pulls more than 3KW from the wall.
Last edited:
- Status