Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT6| - Mostly Fan Noise and Hot Air

How much money are you willing to pay for a next generation console?

  • Up to $199

    Votes: 28 1.4%
  • Up to $299

    Votes: 45 2.2%
  • Up to $399

    Votes: 291 14.3%
  • Up to $499

    Votes: 972 47.9%
  • Up to $599

    Votes: 413 20.4%
  • Up to $699

    Votes: 90 4.4%
  • I will pay anything!

    Votes: 189 9.3%

  • Total voters
    2,028

Bunzy

Member
Nov 1, 2018
561
lol at people still worrying about a possible low tflop count. We’ve had multiple insiders say next gen is going to be sweet and consoles are beastly. Think back to 2012 and try to remember devs and insiders this excited... you can’t. It was mostly about underpowered apu consoles
 

Thera

Member
Feb 28, 2019
1,468
lol at people still worrying about a possible low tflop count. We’ve had multiple insiders say next gen is going to be sweet and consoles are beastly. Think back to 2012 and try to remember devs and insiders this excited... you can’t. It was mostly about underpowered apu consoles
They were happy to ditched the PS3 and welcomed good development tools.
 

AegonSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,414
lol at people still worrying about a possible low tflop count. We’ve had multiple insiders say next gen is going to be sweet and consoles are beastly. Think back to 2012 and try to remember devs and insiders this excited... you can’t. It was mostly about underpowered apu consoles
the problem is the lack of proper leaks and the poor power consumption of navi cards. no one wants to talk to journalists and confirm any kind of tflops count. its bizarre and stressful lol

ive been asking everyone from digital foundry guys, to andrew reiner and jason schrier and no one wants to say what they have heard if they have heard anything about the tflops count. best thing we have is kleegamfan who confirmed double digit tflops which is a relief.

its just odd that 6 months after the devkits went out, no one is willing to state the clockspeeds of the cpu even. DF guys dont seem interested in console wars all of a sudden lol. Jason has taken a sabbatical from this thread. And Reiner was harrassed into going silent. our only hope is kleegamfan's october vacation. lol
 

Thera

Member
Feb 28, 2019
1,468
Except we know more about PS5......

The guy is so pissed Sony wired had the exclusivity, what a spoiled child behavior.
 

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,616
Except we know more about PS5......

The hell does Sony need to go big. It's just hyping up the enthusiasts and letting word of mouth do the rest. Marketing for the casuals will come later.

Ditto with MS. I wont be surprised if their next info drop on Scarlett will be quite low key as well.
 

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,616
Also, is it me or we just shouldnt hope on ray tracing being anything other than ray traced shadows and 'occlusion'

Was telling those were what EA talked about when describing what would be possible with hardware RT.
 

Thera

Member
Feb 28, 2019
1,468
the problem is the lack of proper leaks and the poor power consumption of navi cards. no one wants to talk to journalists and confirm any kind of tflops count. its bizarre and stressful lol

ive been asking everyone from digital foundry guys, to andrew reiner and jason schrier and no one wants to say what they have heard if they have heard anything about the tflops count. best thing we have is kleegamfan who confirmed double digit tflops which is a relief.

its just odd that 6 months after the devkits went out, no one is willing to state the clockspeeds of the cpu even. DF guys dont seem interested in console wars all of a sudden lol. Jason has taken a sabbatical from this thread. And Reiner was harrassed into going silent. our only hope is kleegamfan's october vacation. lol
Someone confirmed PS5 devkit design and was wiped from the internet, it is not really encouraging to speak (and with 0 benefit whatsoever).
 

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,616
Jason Schreier stated that he's not interested in leaking just to get coverage. For him it's better to let Sony or MS' marketing team to do what they have to do.

I can understand, why make enemies for a short term gain.

Although I'm pretty sure he will write about it when accurate info inevitably leaks out.
 

Seshumaru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
259
The Netherlands
They can change resistance and apply force to simulate various types of feedback.
The triggers (L2/R2) can change to different tensions, which means it may require more or less force to press the button.
In conjuction with haptic feedback I think it will be a sweet change.
I'm looking for a bit more technical answer, just a little bit not a lot. So how does it apply that force? Is it like a rubber band that gets tighter or looser situation?
 

Thera

Member
Feb 28, 2019
1,468
Also, is it me or we just shouldnt hope on ray tracing being anything other than ray traced shadows and 'occlusion'

Was telling those were what EA talked about when describing what would be possible with hardware RT.
The first batch of games, probably. Ray traced shadow is already a good news, it is a big problem on console ATM.
The API who will utilised the hardware will evolved so we can still hope for GI with limited number of rays.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,198
Barcelona Spain
They were happy to ditched the PS3 and welcomed good development tools.
Depends of who, some were not so happy on first party teams.


This is a guy from the ICE Team

EDIT: And the development tools were good on PS3 and the library very good, confirmed by the technical director of graphics for Rockstar.
 

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,616
Depends of who, some were not so happy on first party teams.


This is a guy from the ICE Team

EDIT: And the development tools were good on PS3 and the library very good, confirmed by the technical director of graphics for Rockstar.
lol, reading replies it looks like he just misses the cell chip.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,198
Barcelona Spain
What was the question?
He said devs were all happy to quit PS3 CELL development, I even see some Ubi soft devs telling what they like on SPU in an old tweet at the beginning of the gen.

lol, reading replies it looks like he just misses the cell chip.
From one of my friend artist this is an ex dev of Q games and one of the best SPU developers of the world, now he works with ICE Team.
 

Thera

Member
Feb 28, 2019
1,468
Depends of who, some were not so happy on first party teams.


This is a guy from the ICE Team

EDIT: And the development tools were good on PS3 and the library very good, confirmed by the technical director of graphics for Rockstar.
In big teams, sure.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,554
This may sound crazy, but I am actually leaning towards sony going with HBM3 now. 20GB of the stuff on Two 5-hi stacks netting in around 700GB/s of bandwidth. It would also use less power, generate less heat and most importantly take up significantly less space on the chip for its mem controllers.
What would HBM3 cost? And why would anyone need that much bandwidth with SSD also in play?
 

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,616
He said devs were all happy to quit PS3 CELL development, I even see some Ubi soft devs telling what they like on SPU in an old tweet at the beginning of the gen.



From one of my friend artist this is an ex dev of Q games and one of the best SPU developers of the world, now he works with ICE Team.
Yeah, and he's a huge cell chip fanboy.

I dont mean it in a negative manner of course. They made that chip sing.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,845
The need for asset duplication was covered in the GDC postmortem for Spider-Man. They struggled hard to not only fit the game on one BD, but also to handle slow read speed of HDD when spidey is flying across the city. Their target was only 20MB/s, and they had to optimize, duplicate and compress a lot to achieve fast asset streaming.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
636
Seattle
This is not crazy at all. Sony still avoding to disclose the type of RAM they gonna use even at this current time after 2 reveals (textual ones) si hint they are undecided or not ready to talk about RAM tyme because maybe they are still discussing the terms with AMD or waiting for them to finalize it or maybe trying their own implementation with different type of VRAM.
I’m sorry but no. Just no. All of the major architectural decisions have to be locked down now (and for some time before) in order to validate everything and ramp up production in time to hit the market next holiday season. The only thing we know for certain as a result of Sony not telling us about their RAM configuration is that they see no immediate advantage in doing so. That’s it. They could be waiting to reveal something exotic. They could have something really predictable and feel it isn’t enough of a differentiator to focus on. We just don’t know what the story is - except that we do know for certain that they know.

Sony’s slow trickle of information this year is likely a simple PR move to ensure that their competitor doesn’t occupy the whole next-gen conversation. Without that, Somy would be 100% focused on the current generation publicly until they were ready to ramp up in earnest next year. So it’s the least they can reasonably say and still not distract unduly from the compelling PS4 offerings they do have coming up.
 
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Seshumaru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
259
The Netherlands
Each trigger has a motor but we don't know more than that. Maybe they'll explain it better at the unveil of the console.
Ahhh ok,. Thank you for explaining it to me.

I'm just a bit worried that there is going to be another moving part in such a small place. The first ds4 was not the best of quality and I hope that next gen the quality is going to be better.
 

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
2,884
Interesting! I didn't know this.
I wonder if this is all connected with Shawn leaving too? He spent years at SCEE didn't he? I guess he wouldn't be happy about big layoffs there.

I wish the beating around the bush would stop and someone publish a big detailed article about what's been going on at Sony in the last ~year.
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
606
I’m sorry but no. Just no. All of the major architectural decisions have to be locked down now (and for some time before) in order to validate everything and ramp up production in time to hit the market next holiday season. The only thing we know for certain as a result of Sony not telling us about their RAM configuration is that they see no immediate advantage in doing so. That’s it. They could be waiting to reveal something exotic. They could have something really predictable and feel it isn’t enough of a differentiator to focus us. We just don’t know what the story is - except that we do know for certain that they know.

Sony’s slow trickle of information this year is likely a simple PR move to ensure that their competitor doesn’t occupy the whole next-gen conversation. Without that, Somy would be 100% focused on the current generation publicly until they were ready to ramp up in earnest next year. So it’s the least they can reasonably say and still not distract unduly from the compelling PS4 offerings they do have coming up.
What a sensible post.

Both consoles are going to be largely locked down at this point. We're one year from release. Clock speeds and other minor adjustments are likely possible, but the core fundamentals of the consoles will be largely set in stone at this point, and devs will have hardware that is probably fairly representative of the final machines so they can actually make games that will be launching in a year.

If things were in wild flux the console manufacturing would not be ready for next year and neither would the games.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,198
Barcelona Spain
Were they aware of the Famitsu PS5 article the same day which also includes more information about the CPU?

This recent "SCEI upheaval" disinformation narrative is total BS.
The only sure things is that Jim Ryan is from SIEE and was marketing director for years there and head of SIEE. This is not a decision purely coming from someone from SIEA.

After this is sad like always for people looking for a new job.

 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,554
SSD will not be used for current frame, more bandwith means more effect at native res, more particle and many other things...
Cost: What do guys think HBM3 will cost? It will be new tech. New tech tends to be priced higher as OEM's look to recoup development fees before passing benefits to consumers. Traditionally, consoles have never gone with the best RAM setup available, nor targeted the highest speed chips. Costs matter. This is why I was of the opinion that even Microsoft will not go bat shit crazy ages ago........you want to build a mass market product at a cost that you can sell it at.

And with the volumes that Microsoft and Sony more so will be dealing with, those (costs) can ramp up pretty fast.

And yes, I know that the main reason you need SSD is for faster streaming. But the question still is, why would anyone need 20gb HBM3 at 700gb/s? A $1200 nvidia card has 11GB GDDR6 RAM at 616gb/s. I doubt that these consoles are competing with that card in terms of performance.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,198
Barcelona Spain
Cost: What do guys think HBM3 will cost? It will be new tech. New tech tends to be priced higher as OEM's look to recoup development fees before passing benefits to consumers. Traditionally, consoles have never gone with the best RAM setup available, nor targeted the highest speed chips. Costs matter. This is why I was of the opinion that even Microsoft will not go bat shit crazy ages ago........you want to build a mass market product at a cost that you can sell it at.

And with the volumes that Microsoft and Sony more so will be dealing with, those (costs) can ramp up pretty fast.

And yes, I know that the main reason you need SSD is for faster streaming. But the question still is, why would anyone need 20gb HBM3 at 700gb/s? A $1200 nvidia card has 11GB GDDR6 RAM at 616gb/s. I doubt that these consoles are competing with that card in terms of performance.
I don't believe so much to HBM3 because of the cost but this is strange Sony did not confirm GDDR6 like Microsoft. HBM production cost is only 25 to 30% more than GDDR6 but because demand is much higher than production capacity price is crazy.

EDIT: And with higher production and economy of scale the cost could decrease a lot.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,554
I don't believe so much to HBM3 because of the cost but this is strange Sony did not confirm GDDR6 like Microsoft. HBM production cost is only 25 to 30% more than GDDR6 but because demand is much higher than production capacity price is crazy.

EDIT: And with higher production and economy of scale the cost could decrease a lot.
Sony did not confirm CPU cores until yesterday. They did not confirm hardware ray tracing until yesterday. So there really is nothing strange just the same way that Microsoft has not confirmed some stuff too?

A question would also be, where is HBM3 demand? What there is an excess of is HBM2 demand.

To the last point, you need capex to boost production. It is the main reason benefits are not passed down to consumers immediately....not unless there is excess capacity. And there is none of the latter at current moment.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,198
Barcelona Spain
Sony did not confirm CPU cores until yesterday. They did not confirm hardware ray tracing until yesterday. So there really is nothing strange just the same way that Microsoft has not confirmed some stuff too?

A question would also be, where is HBM3 demand? What there is an excess of is HBM2 demand.

To the last point, you need capex to boost production. It is the main reason benefits are not passed down to consumers immediately....not unless there is excess capacity. And there is none of the latter at current moment.
From what told two specialists of the semi industry for HBM to be more mainstream it misses just some high production product and HBM3 is cheaper to produce than HBM 2 but I don't believe this will be for this generation.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,471
I’m sorry but no. Just no. All of the major architectural decisions have to be locked down now (and for some time before) in order to validate everything and ramp up production in time to hit the market next holiday season. The only thing we know for certain as a result of Sony not telling us about their RAM configuration is that they see no immediate advantage in doing so. That’s it. They could be waiting to reveal something exotic. They could have something really predictable and feel it isn’t enough of a differentiator to focus on. We just don’t know what the story is - except that we do know for certain that they know.

Sony’s slow trickle of information this year is likely a simple PR move to ensure that their competitor doesn’t occupy the whole next-gen conversation. Without that, Somy would be 100% focused on the current generation publicly until they were ready to ramp up in earnest next year. So it’s the least they can reasonably say and still not distract unduly from the compelling PS4 offerings they do have coming up.
Just like the last minute 8 GB GDDR5 that even first party devs didn't know about and had to work with just 4GB of their devkits for their launch games, right?
Nothing is locked right now and everything can change. Devs could have started working on games for PS5 with a VEGA GPU, no RT and even GDDR5. The development workflow won't change until later after launch games so anything could happen meanwhile. Even the devkit form could change hence the last V shaped one withmany vents.
 

Pheonix

Member
Dec 14, 2018
1,740
St Kitts
Cost: What do guys think HBM3 will cost? It will be new tech. New tech tends to be priced higher as OEM's look to recoup development fees before passing benefits to consumers. Traditionally, consoles have never gone with the best RAM setup available, nor targeted the highest speed chips. Costs matter. This is why I was of the opinion that even Microsoft will not go bat shit crazy ages ago........you want to build a mass market product at a cost that you can sell it at.

And with the volumes that Microsoft and Sony more so will be dealing with, those (costs) can ramp up pretty fast.

And yes, I know that the main reason you need SSD is for faster streaming. But the question still is, why would anyone need 20gb HBM3 at 700gb/s? A $1200 nvidia card has 11GB GDDR6 RAM at 616gb/s. I doubt that these consoles are competing with that card in terms of performance.
One of the key things about HBM3 is that it's supposed to be cheaper than HBM2. There is also the fact that more companies other than Samsung are starting up HBMmanufacturing which also means it gets cheaper to make. Then there was that whole interposer less patent thing or whatever that was that would further bring the price down
I feel for those losing their jobs.

But these decisions aren't ever done impulsively or overnight. Its now apparent that there is or has obviously been a lot of restructuring. What this has to do with the PS5 I don't understand and I feel that is just media sensationalism. And I think that is just pathetic. Or are people forgetting that n 2012 sony laid off around 10,000 workes? Then went on to launch their best console since the PS2.
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,752
I’ve seen HBM3 coming up again but isn’t it still a couple years off with HBM2E coming in the meantime?
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,554
One of the key things about HBM3 is that it's supposed to be cheaper than HBM2. There is also the fact that more companies other than Samsung are starting up HBMmanufacturing which also means it gets cheaper to make. Then there was that whole interposer less patent thing or whatever that was that would further bring the price down
HBM3 that you are talking about is not even in production, unless I have missed something. If this console was to come out this year and got delayed because of BC, why on earth would they be building it around a RAM type that is not yet even out?

If they were building a console, would they be risking it on a RAM platform where there is more demand than there is supply?

Edit: PlayStation is the goose that laid the golden egg for Sony. I cannot fathom that they would be taking these risks. Not unless they had iron clad guarantees on deliveries.
 
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RingRang

Member
Oct 2, 2019
171
the problem is the lack of proper leaks and the poor power consumption of navi cards. no one wants to talk to journalists and confirm any kind of tflops count. its bizarre and stressful lol

ive been asking everyone from digital foundry guys, to andrew reiner and jason schrier and no one wants to say what they have heard if they have heard anything about the tflops count. best thing we have is kleegamfan who confirmed double digit tflops which is a relief.

its just odd that 6 months after the devkits went out, no one is willing to state the clockspeeds of the cpu even. DF guys dont seem interested in console wars all of a sudden lol. Jason has taken a sabbatical from this thread. And Reiner was harrassed into going silent. our only hope is kleegamfan's october vacation. lol
Digital Foundry has said that due to the makeup of these new consoles the tflops count is not going to be as relevant as it used to be. It's worth pointing out that neither Microsoft or Sony has gone on record with a number, and the reason for that is likely that the number itself may not be all that high (let's say 10ish), but in reality it may perform better than the number would indicate on paper. At least that's the way the Digital Foundry guys described it in a video I recall watching a while back.
 

Pheonix

Member
Dec 14, 2018
1,740
St Kitts
I’ve seen HBM3 coming up again but isn’t it still a couple years off with HBM2E coming in the meantime?
HBM3 that you are talking about is not even in production, unless I have missed something. If this console was to come out this year and got delayed because of BC, why on earth would they be building it around a RAM type that is not yet even out?

If they were building a console, would they be risking it on a RAM platform where there is more demand than there is supply?

Edit: PlayStation is the goose that laid the golden egg for Sony. I cannot fathom that they would be taking these risks. Not unless they had iron clad guarantees on deliveries.
To both of you...

  • The PS4 was amongst (if not the first) the first mainstream products to use 8Gb (1GB) GDDR5 chips back in 2013. So because something is not being made right now (it's scheduled to go into production between 2019/2020) it doesn't mean it can't make it into a next-gen console.

  • The issue with HBM isn't that there is more demand for it, its actually that there isn't enough demand or it, that's why prices remain high.

  • And something you both may not know about HBM3 (or HBM in general), what really makes it expensive is the fact that they use an interposer. That's literally having silicon on silicon. But it's necessary because it "was" the only way they saw to accommodate the 1024-bit/stack bus width. With HB3, one of the game changers of that spec is that they can instead choose to use a smaller bus of 512-bit/stack.

  • Why this is great is that it means you can do away with that silicon (costly) interposer entirely and use an organic interposer(already used in MCM designs, that stuff that chiplets are put on) instead. These are much cheaper than silicon interposers while being able to handle significantly higher routing than PCBs. And that's just one of two ways HBM3 is going to be cheaper. It retains the same bandwidth throughput by increasing (doubling) the clock speed while halving the bus size.

  • If sony were to have decided to go with HBM, it would have been a decision they could have made as late as last year, and that is time enough to tape out a chip that incorporated a HBM mem controller as opposed to a GDDR one. And I am almost certain sony will have a better bead on these things and their availability than us, orat least enough to make an informed decision.