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How much money are you willing to pay for a next generation console?

  • Up to $199

    Votes: 33 1.5%
  • Up to $299

    Votes: 48 2.2%
  • Up to $399

    Votes: 318 14.4%
  • Up to $499

    Votes: 1,060 48.0%
  • Up to $599

    Votes: 449 20.3%
  • Up to $699

    Votes: 100 4.5%
  • I will pay anything!

    Votes: 202 9.1%

  • Total voters
    2,210
Status
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More Butter

Banned
Jun 12, 2018
1,890
For now it's only speculation though.

I'm going off on the fairly mid selection of titles they had this gen, something you haven't even tried to dispute...
My opinion on MS games is subjective and so is yours. That's how this works. I have played many MS games and enjoyed them. I played the hell of of Ori Halo 5, I think Gears 5 is GOTY just as a few examples. But you clearly wouldn't agree. So it doesn't matter. The micro transaction argument is interesting but I've never partaken in a micro transaction and I have played many MS games. So that criticism doesn't ring true to my experience. You are on about something but I'm not sure what you expect. You want me to admit that MS doesn't have a bright future in game development? Here's the reality, some people actually liked Xbox platform this gen yet would still admit there were many mistakes. I think all the platform holders have actually done a good job in many ways. I like the Xbox platform as it stands and it looks to only get better. I'm really looking forward to Scarlett and PS5 and what they will do next gen. That's all I will say.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,844
So, if a DEV had to choose either a faster CPU or a more powerful GPU, which one would they want?
Is it pretty standard for all devs to choose one or is it based on their goal for that game?
Devs will choose different stuff, but generally they would rather have the most balanced system so no part bottlenecks the other, considering the CPU jump is huge either way, then devs will probably prefer whoever got the better bandwidth/GPU power
 

Red Tapir

Member
May 10, 2019
591
My opinion on MS games is subjective and so is yours. That's how this works. I have played many MS games and enjoyed them. I played the hell of of Ori Halo 5, I think Gears 5 is GOTY just as a few examples. But you clearly wouldn't agree. So it doesn't matter. The micro transaction argument is interesting but I've never partaken in a micro transaction and I have played many MS games. So that criticism doesn't ring true to my experience. You are on about something but I'm not sure what you expect. You want me to admit that MS doesn't have a bright future in game development? Here's the reality, some people actually liked Xbox platform this gen yet would still admit there were many mistakes. I think all the platform holders have actually done a good job in many ways. I like the Xbox platform as it stands and it looks to only get better. I'm really looking forward to Scarlett and PS5 and what they will do next gen. That's all I will say.

The bolded is were you are wrong.
I feel it's important to properly communicate why you like something and what others may like in it.

Many fanbases tend to think in a very insular manner when faced with somebody they perceive as an outsider.
I've had plenty of talks with Xbox users irl, but it's only online were discussion feels so defensive.
You get way fewer "I love this game, you should pick it up" than "I hate your game, and your taste sucks".

I haven't had the best time with my Xbox, but I'm genuinely happy you did and thankful you took the time to explain why.
 
Last edited:

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
The 570GTX came out in 2010 :)
BTW, even in 2010 the 570 had a 2.5GB version and the 580 had a 3 GB version.

in addition I don't think NVIDIA in 2010 was that impressive, the 5870 was AMAZING in 2010, probably AMD's best power to consumption to price ratio since 2010 and to this day. But today? NV isn't even trying and somehow still manages to rule over the market without even going 7nm. I pity AMD next year when NV's 3000 series comes out.
Ah. I built my pc in early 2012 and that was still their flagship card at the time. i was told the Nvidia 1.5 tflops card is more powerful than the ps4 gpu.

but yeah, AMD needs to step up their game. 5700XT simply isnt good enough. $400 1440p card in 2019? Lame. They need the 5800XT to be a 60 CU 2.0 Ghz 15 tflops monster AND support ray tracing. And launch it for $500.

They also need a 60+ CU card to compete with the 2080 Ti. or 3080 Ti. It will be interesting to see if 7nm+ cards can go over 2.0 ghz.

i am still hoping for 7nm+ next gen APUs.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,479
Seattle
I wonder what changed there minds from going with "the best they can do for $399"
To "cerny go HAM"

I won't be entirely surprised if they do still wind up being aggressive on pricing, but I don't have any real reason to believe a $399, $449, or $499 price point is more likely. Any of them could work.

If they do start off at $499 I suspect it would mean they think the PS4 can continue to attract price-sensitive consumers for another year or two while still getting plenty of third-party support. The situation is definitely different than the PS3 to PS4 transition where their older system was painful to port to and relatively expensive to manufacture, both good reasons to want people to migrate to a newer generation as rapidly as possible.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
1) The studios they acquired were working primarily on one game at a time, with side-teams at best or conceptual work going on in parallel.
Obsidian wasn't handling multiple Outer Worlds level projects at once.

2) Games have appeared on day 1 on GP that weren't from XGS, so why would that be a concern.

MS could have stil been in talk with Obsidian and all the others, but make the announcement and execute the merger after they shipped their major project.
However they wanted to announce all their acquisitions at once.
It's not that complicated.
Obsidian has another game in the works outside The Outer Worlds. There was something from Game Informer to that effect.
InXile has another project running outside Wastelands 3, I think it was Brian Fargo that stated that.
Ninja Theory has been working on multiple projects for ages.
Playground was already building a second team before the announcement that they had been acquired by Microsoft.
Double Fine has a history of undertaking several projects.

You have smaller teams like Undead Labs or Compulsion that do not have that flexibility, but come one man........
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534


I find it hard to believe that HBM will scale down in price faster then gddr6, I mean there is a reason why both nvidia and AMD chose gddr6 over HBM in there most recent graphics cards.

I also find this "Sony got an amazing HBM deal" some fanfolk drival,
I mean think about, Samsung or some other company just happen to have tens of millions of bad hbm chips that it will sell cheap just to Sony.
If thery were so cheap why on earth didn't the hbm company not offer the cheap hbm chips to other companies? For possibly a higher price.
 

Red Tapir

Member
May 10, 2019
591
Obsidian has another game in the works outside The Outer Worlds. There was something from Game Informer to that effect.
InXile has another project running outside Wastelands 3, I think it was Brian Fargo that stated that.
Ninja Theory has been working on multiple projects for ages.
Playground was already building a second team before the announcement that they had been acquired by Microsoft.
Double Fine has a history of undertaking several projects.

You have smaller teams like Undead Labs or Compulsion that do not have that flexibility, but come one man........
You must know that "primarily working" doesn't mean "exclusively working" right?

None of these studios have multiple full teams working on games, as I said.
It would have been very easy to approach while they weren't in full-blown production, i.e. announced and with a release window, and they did with PlayGround and Undead Labs.
 

Red Tapir

Member
May 10, 2019
591
If you are an independent developer, you work on project(s) dependent on what contracts you have at any given time. Is game development something new to you?
You're acting like MS had no other choice but to bust in mid-project, while in reality these studios were focus mainly on one project at a time.

Again, they acquired PlayGround and Undead Labs between projects, so it clearly wasn't impossible.

Is it that hard to believe that a big announced project with known release date might need more hands on deck than an unannounced side project?
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
5,225

This quote is hilarious.

"HBM is more power efficient than GDDR6. The savings were invested into more GPU power.:"

That is not how this works. Just because you save power in one area does not mean that you can "invest" that power in another area. Since HBM is on the CPU package, the power provided to the CPU package needs to increase, which can be a bigger challenge. Also, it means that the same heatsink needs to also dissipate the heat from the HBM chips in addition to the CPU. So you actually make your power delivery and heat dissipation harder with HBM than without.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,332
Xbox One family is probably going to sell between 50-60 million lifetime. >50 million consoles is a successful device by any measure outside of PS1, 2, and 4 tier.

If the next Xbox has a shorter lifespan and the console market shrinks, I can easily see it not doing as well.

I think it will be close to 50M lifetime. They were at 41M january 2019 (going by ZhugeEX numbers) and they sold a bit over 6M in 2018 iirc. Sales have gone down quite a bit this year, so we can expect at least a 20% decline, which would put the total at around 46M next January. And from Q1 to Q3 2020, being the final year of the console, we can expect at least half of Q1-Q3 2018, so around 1M.

So all in all at around 47M (49M if sales during 2019 and 2020 would be the same than in 2018, to give some perspective), right up to the launch of the Scarlett.

After Scarlet's launch we can expect it to sell no more than 5% what it sold up until then (going by the 360 numbers), so 2.5M or less. (I'd say less than that, because people we'll probably be able to just buy a controler, and play Scarlett games and Xbox One games through Xcloud)

All in all, between 48M-50M lifetime is my guess, we can round it up to 50M so everyone is happy and we have a nice number. Of course, it's all just guesstimates based on insiders numbers and the known NPD sales, but going by ZhugeEx 41M number it won't be too far

Regarding the future I think it's too hard too predict. I'd only say the PS5: Scarlet ratio will be similar to the PS4:Xbox One one
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Weird if that's the case because PSX is in December and the PS5 will launch a month prior.
he said that last year.

Since HBM is on the CPU package, the power provided to the CPU package needs to increase, which can be a bigger challenge. Also, it means that the same heatsink needs to also dissipate the heat from the HBM chips in addition to the CPU. So you actually make your power delivery and heat dissipation harder with HBM than without.

the patent filed by Sony for the heatsink actually does exactly that. HBM stacks under the APU and the heatsink cools everything.

EHFsKf3WsAEAGPK
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
This quote is hilarious.

"HBM is more power efficient than GDDR6. The savings were invested into more GPU power.:"

That is not how this works. Just because you save power in one area does not mean that you can "invest" that power in another area. Since HBM is on the CPU package, the power provided to the CPU package needs to increase, which can be a bigger challenge. Also, it means that the same heatsink needs to also dissipate the heat from the HBM chips in addition to the CPU. So you actually make your power delivery and heat dissipation harder with HBM than without.
Heat locality matters too. Moving 10-20W off the APU is not insignificant. In the wildest world in which the memory is on the opposing side of the board, the thermal relief will be even greater.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
MS willingness to inflate game budgets and visions until projects implode is well reported.
The failed Obsidian Xbox exclusive (Stormland) is a big reason they could be bought for cheaper.

All these studios being bought at once to show off, irregardless of their previous commitments, is again a sign of poor management.
You're going to have to deal with redundancies, management changes, new hiring, new communication, new structuring, new overhead WHILE also developing and releasing a game, possibly with a third unrelated publisher in the mix.

A recent comparison, Sony buying Insomniac, happened AFTER they shipped their big game.

This is silly. You clearly don't have an idea how business works.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
5,225
Heat locality matters too. Moving 10-20W off the APU is not insignificant. In the wildest world in which the memory is on the opposing side of the board, the thermal relief will be even greater.
That's essentially the gist of my post. GDDR6 will be farther away from the APU so the heat dissipation and power delivery problem gets easier than with HBM.

Also, HBM packaging is a lot more expensive.
 

Red Tapir

Member
May 10, 2019
591
This is silly. You clearly don't have an idea how business works.
Most studio acquisitions happen mid-project to avoid major disruption.
Insomniac, PlayGround and Undead Labs were acquired that way.

Just as an example, Double Fine was acquired so quickly that its fate as an indie publisher was up in the air, with several devs finding out at the announcement.
 

DrKeo

Banned
Mar 3, 2019
2,600
Israel
Ah. I built my pc in early 2012 and that was still their flagship card at the time. i was told the Nvidia 1.5 tflops card is more powerful than the ps4 gpu.

but yeah, AMD needs to step up their game. 5700XT simply isnt good enough. $400 1440p card in 2019? Lame. They need the 5800XT to be a 60 CU 2.0 Ghz 15 tflops monster AND support ray tracing. And launch it for $500.

They also need a 60+ CU card to compete with the 2080 Ti. or 3080 Ti. It will be interesting to see if 7nm+ cards can go over 2.0 ghz.

i am still hoping for 7nm+ next gen APUs.
The 680GTX with 4GB of GDDR5 and 3.1TF came out in March 2012 so you've had pretty bad timing for building a new computer :)
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
I think its more like "the best value for money you can make".

will like to think that if you are making a console as good as a PS4 in 2020 and by 2020 standards, that console will just cost you $499.

Ah, so your saying the fundamental hardware stratagy is the same, but because of diminishing returns $499 is required.

Yes I could see that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
Most studio acquisitions happen mid-project to avoid major disruption.
Insomniac, PlayGround and Undead Labs were acquired that way.

Just as an example, Double Fine was acquired so quickly that its fate as an indie publisher was up in the air, with several devs finding out at the announcement.

Do you think it was a hostile takeover? The Studio weighed their options and decided it was a great option for them at that time. MS doesn't just go plucking up companies like it was shopping at a supermarket.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
You're acting like MS had no other choice but to bust in mid-project, while in reality these studios were focus mainly on one project at a time.

Again, they acquired PlayGround and Undead Labs between projects, so it clearly wasn't impossible.

Is it that hard to believe that a big announced project with known release date might need more hands on deck than an unannounced side project?
You have a warped reasoning that does not apply when it comes to mergers and acquisitions. You do not wait for a company to complete what they are doing before you acquire them, and I do not know where this utopian view you have comes from.

EA acquired BioWare at a time when they were ramping up to release Mass Effect.
Microsoft bought Bungie who had been working on a third person shooter called Halo: Combat Evolved. The game had been revealed in 1999, and later became the first person shooter we know it to be.

Rare was bought just as they were releasing Starfox Adventures on the GameCube, and they then went on to release a good amount of games on the GameBoy Advance.
Playground, Ninja Theory, InXile, Compulsion, Double Fine, Obsidian all follow this model where Microsoft will buying a developer regardless of what they are working on.

If they are working on something, get it out of the way and build. If they do not have anything on the horizon, even better. This thinking that ongoing projects is something that will deter publishers/platform holders from making acquisitions. And these were not the hostile takeover you saw when EA got BioWare and Pandemic.

Each of those developers wanted stability, to make games, have freedom without having to worry about the money side of things.
 

Fabtacular

Member
Jul 11, 2019
4,244
Most studio acquisitions happen mid-project to avoid major disruption.
Insomniac, PlayGround and Undead Labs were acquired that way.

Just as an example, Double Fine was acquired so quickly that its fate as an indie publisher was up in the air, with several devs finding out at the announcement.

"Hey, we'd really like to make this deal but can we delay this transaction for 6-12 months so you're mid-project at the time of acquisition?"

"Hey Jim, this is your boss Phil Spencer. Can you compile a list of potential acquisition targets for me? Yeah, we're going to invest hundreds of millions of dollars building out our internal studios. Really big investment. But here's the thing, I only want you to include studios that are mid-project."

LOL. That whole notion is ridiculous on its face.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
Do you think it was a hostile takeover? The Studio weighed their options and decided it was a great option for them at that time. MS doesn't just go plucking up companies like it was shopping at a supermarket.
I do not even know why the timing matters. These talks are held at high level, most developers will not hear about it until it is nearly done, or done.....or if someone leaks stuff.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Ah, so your saying the fundamental hardware stratagy is the same, but because of diminishing returns $499 is required.

Yes I could see that.
Yup.. we can even say its cheaper somehow.

For reference, I would look at the XB1X. That console is pretty much the blueprint of what a next-gen console will be. They are now just putting 16Gb RAMchips as opposed to 8Gb chips and swapping out the HDD for an SSD. PS4pro doesn't ut it because it laked a vapor chamber and a UHD drive.

Basically, next-gen consoles are what the XB1X would have been in 2020 and if it didn't have to use a Jaguar CPU and used an SSD. When you look at it that way, it's a small miracle we are getting what we are getting nextgen for $499.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,479
Seattle
Plus it would be stupid and ignorant to think that clockspeeds or other things can't change.

It would be equally foolish to believe that the few things that can change are more likely to benefit one particular company. There's literally no reason to believe the two don't have similar amounts of headroom for upside tweaks, and identical motivation to take advantage of that opportunity. Sure, one of them could have been more conservative with their target specs but there's no evidence to support that one way or another.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Do you think it was a hostile takeover? The Studio weighed their options and decided it was a great option for them at that time. MS doesn't just go plucking up companies like it was shopping at a supermarket.
I wouldnt think so.

If I would guess, it would probably be Double Fine having problems financially + a good relationship with MS.
 

Xeontech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,059
The same could be argued for the $399 PlayStation's this gen. Even Richard Leadbetter thinks it would be risky for Sony to rock that boat with PS5.

Most here think both will be at least $499 but I think most of this is based around a lot of exaggeration of the parts costs.
It's more like thinking PlayStation 5 will be $299 which would never happen.

I think it's more likely either console will be priced at $599 than Xbox come out at $399
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Yup.. we can even say its cheaper somehow.

For reference, I would look at the XB1X. That console is pretty much the blueprint of what a next-gen console will be. They are now just putting 16Gb RAMchips as opposed to 8Gb chips and swapping out the HDD for an SSD. PS4pro doesn't ut it because it laked a vapor chamber and a UHD drive.

Basically, next-gen consoles are what the XB1X would have been in 2020 and if it didn't have to use a Jaguar CPU and used an SSD. When you look at it that way, it's a small miracle we are getting what we are getting nextgen for $499.

I think if we want more then 8tflop, they are going to need a bigger and better cooling system then the 1x.

Yes Im perfectly fine with next gen being $499/£449
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Help me understand how licensing is involved here when it wasn't on the PS3. Keep in mind the PS1 emulator on every PS3 was pure software.

I'm just going by the fact that OG Xbox BC is very limited on the x1 because of licensing, so I don't see why PS1 + ps2 would be much different. These games and all there licensing/pubkishing deals are 15 - 25yrs old, if Sony really want most of these games to be BC on PS5 they will have to get there check book out.
 

Dashful

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,401
Canada
I'm just going by the fact that OG Xbox BC is very limited on the x1 because of licensing, so I don't see why PS1 + ps2 would be much different. These games and all there licensing deals are 15 - 25yrs old, if Sony really want most of these games to be BC on PS4 they will have to get there check book out.
All I want is to be able to use my PS1 and PS2 discs again. But if that's not possible, I'll stay content with putting my disc in my pc and emulating I guess.

Edit: PS3 would be cool, but I'm not sure we're at a point where emulating Cell is all that possible?
 
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