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How much money are you willing to pay for a next generation console?

  • Up to $199

    Votes: 33 1.5%
  • Up to $299

    Votes: 48 2.2%
  • Up to $399

    Votes: 318 14.4%
  • Up to $499

    Votes: 1,060 48.0%
  • Up to $599

    Votes: 449 20.3%
  • Up to $699

    Votes: 100 4.5%
  • I will pay anything!

    Votes: 202 9.1%

  • Total voters
    2,210
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anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
Maybe the devkit isn't anywhere near final and is running discrete CPU and GPU - i.e. not final silicon - and doing so with the closest equivalents, the GPU being 5700XT clocked at 2GHz+ to get to 10TF+. That would require some beefy cooling.

Final hardware then goes a bit wider and slower - anything from 44CUs @ 1.8GHz to 52CUs @1.6GHz to get the in same kinda sorta envelope.
My personal bet is that they're running a custom APU that is a Zen 2 chiplet with a full Navi die on the same package. They're clocking the hell out of it to match final retail TF. This allows them to get a close to final configuration with more realistic on-package latency between the CPU and GPU.
This way, it will appear in all of these performance loggers are a complete part and give the impression it could be ES silicon of the final hardware, when the true APU is only just entering production.
 

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,168
I feel u r way too invested in Xbox being stronger that when we finally see ps5 is indeed stronger you will find stuff (crazy magic that u say it doesn't exist now ). Cause when mind doesn't accept something it will create alternative realities .Every post you make reads the same way lol . Give it a rest maybe and wait and see what happens ?
Ether
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,734
Heck, Cerny himself said that he thought 8TF was necessary for 4K and we got native 4K on Red Dead Redemption 2 on the X.

I believe he was making an estimate of what you'd need for universal native 4K support for PS4-quality games. Not every game is native 4K on Xbox One (6Tflop). He was addressing what would be necessary for that, I believe. What we can say about RDR2 is that it's clearly not an ALU bound game at 1080p on a 2Tflop card (or ~PS4). Its bounds are elsewhere, and that's why 4K was possible for it on a machine < 4x PS4 Tflops.

Realworld performance is of course more than teraflops. People use it as a rule of thumb, though, because usually 'everything else' on the GPU scales along with it. If that isn't true in a comparison between the next gen consoles then real world performance differences indeed might be more variable than Tflops suggests, depending on the game's characteristics and where it's performance bound, as we see in some cases between XB1 and PS4 Pro. But if there was a simple scaling of everything along with it, then we could use it as a simple way to compare them.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,038
Possible neither MS or Sony talk about TFs as the raw numbers may be too close to XB1X to sound exciting. They'll talk about features like ray tracing and the SSD but reference everything through immersion and experience not cold hard numbers.

When they eventually reveal boxes I'm sure demos will look great but we'll still be unclear on raw specs for a while
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,897
"Some people not being impressed with the specs" is a statement based on the mid-gen consoles skewing perceptions of the next gen leap and is not a hint at 8-9TF as folks always seem to take it as. 2x more powerful than Xbox One X does indeed sound bad when people are accustomed to hearing next gen consoles are 7-8x more powerful than the previous console.
I don't even know why mid-gen is being put into the equation anyway. Base to base is where it is.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,831
Looks like $500 price tag could be accurate.
no way a retailer would be told the price and release date this far out.
okay, here's the thing.
you wont get a retailer leak before the official reveal for Sony, here's why:
there is a reason why sony specifically chose to reveal the PS4 in februray, and will probably reveal the PS5 again around that time; And it is because they time the meeting with annual destination playstation event, a retailer event. So retailers will not be told of PS5 details until Sony has the show as well.
Then again, with the PS4 sony did not reveal the price nor the release date until E3 iirc, so we might have those things leak after the event.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Ha talked with Cerny so he probably know little more
And Cerny told him specs?

He knows no more than any of us here and is just making his estimation based n what is out there right now. Like anyone of us could have said all he has said so far, and in every case but one we already did. he only thing they did thatI really appreciate is benchmarking the CPU vs jaguar CPUs.
 

Putty

Double Eleven
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
929
Middlesbrough
And Cerny told him specs?

He knows no more than any of us here and is just making his estimation based n what is out there right now. Like anyone of us could have said all he has said so far, and in every case but one we already did. he only thing they did thatI really appreciate is benchmarking the CPU vs jaguar CPUs.

#hhmm
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
My personal bet is that they're running a custom APU that is a Zen 2 chiplet with a full Navi die on the same package. They're clocking the hell out of it to match final retail TF. This allows them to get a close to final configuration with more realistic on-package latency between the CPU and GPU.
This way, it will appear in all of these performance loggers are a complete part and give the impression it could be ES silicon of the final hardware, when the true APU is only just entering production.
Dude, it's like you just pulled that post outta my head. That's exactly what I feel is going on. I was envisaging come custom set up like what we have with the Hades Canyon.

I don't even know why mid-gen is being put into the equation anyway. Base to base is where it is.
I find this puzzling too. Its like some people don't realize that as long as those souped-up mid gen consoles still have those jaguar CPUs, they won't even be able to run next-gen games.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,831
is that the worst performing game? 😦

I thought JC3 was at the very top. 😋

I'm hoping df does a bc test once they get their hands on next gen systems.
i am pretty sure TLG is dropping to lower FPS, but its just not action oriented to feel as bad as something like JC3.
another contender is Control, i remember that the framerate analysis saw drops to even 10FPS on base PS4, but i wouldnt say that game is really a case of bad optimization, and rather over ambition i feel.
 

Chamber

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,279
I don't even know why mid-gen is being put into the equation anyway. Base to base is where it is.
It's the elephant in the room and you can already see it in threads on this forum where people think Xbox One X is a good enough approximation of the next gen leap. This is what Leadbetter is referring to when he says ignore the spec leaks because even a 10-11TF Navi doesn't sound like a huge leap but it will be once we see the games.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,845
And Cerny told him specs?

He knows no more than any of us here and is just making his estimation based n what is out there right now. Like anyone of us could have said all he has said so far, and in every case but one we already did. he only thing they did thatI really appreciate is benchmarking the CPU vs jaguar CPUs.
Exactly. I'd even say we maybe know more about the CPU inside PS5 than him. After flute bench many of us here think it should be on par with a 1700X (because of cut down cache), not 3700X.

I don't know who his (new ?) sources are (he had another source telling him Scarlett GPU would be 12 tf), but apparently since the first leaks of Komachi about Gonzalo / Ariel (and he basically did a whole article about that specific leak) he decided to totally ignore his more recent infos like the Flute benchmark (1700X level CPU) or the Oberon stuff (alleged 2ghz GPU clocks for PS5 devkit).
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
Dude, it's like you just pulled that post outta my head. That's exactly what I feel is going on. I was envisaging come custom set up like what we have with the Hades Canyon.


I find this puzzling too. Its like some people don't realize that as long as those souped-up mid gen consoles still have those jaguar CPUs, they won't even be able to run next-gen games.
giphy.gif
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
And Cerny told him specs?

He knows no more than any of us here and is just making his estimation based n what is out there right now. Like anyone of us could have said all he has said so far, and in every case but one we already did. he only thing they did thatI really appreciate is benchmarking the CPU vs jaguar CPUs.
I didn't say he tell him specs - Cerny suggest that design was rather smart than raw power. And I don't agree that "he knows no more than any of us here". He said that gonzalo is 99% ps5 couse his source tell this and most people writing here (including me) has no source :)
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
I believe the V shaped design is far too unique to be something for devkits only. I also think Sony will go with a separate CPU and GPU this time.
The V is likely for 2 heatsinks rather than 2 locations for gpu/cpu. They're not going to separate the apu and increase latency between the gpu and cpu and then again between the two and memory chips.

One thing to keep in mind here particularly if the actual hardware being used is super close per the rumors is that Richard from Digital Foundry mentioned during that EGX 2019 talk posted yesterday that paper TF specs alone definitely do not explain how the Xbox One X can get 4 times the pixel count of base PS4 (6 TF versus 1.84 TF) and 2 times the pixel count of PS4 Pro in many games (6 TF versus 4.2 TF). Heck, Cerny himself said that he thought 8TF was necessary for 4K and we got native 4K on Red Dead Redemption 2 on the X. So we truly don't know much at all about eventual real world game performance a year out considering that both companies may be doing things in their architecture with cache, latency, draw call efficiency (the ultimate foundation of any graphics pipeline) and so forth. That is why consoles are more interesting than "off the shelf" PC parts.

Note that I do not believe that there is some crazy magic that will suddenly enable one or the other to have a huge performance advantage if the hardware is truly so close, just that eventual relative performance to each other cannot be credibly assessed a year out for the reasons I cited and final driver tweaks and everything else that can come (you see updated Nividia and AMD drivers all the time right when new GPUs launch that improve performance).

Did you also know that PRO has native 4k games at 4.2Tf? It's almost as if devs can increase and decrease effects and other power sipping aspects of the game to achieve higher resolution. mind blowing
Your descent into madness continues.

Come on, I am just talking logical facts here is all on next gen "speculation" thread.

You're in denial.
 

Lokimaster

Alt Account
Banned
May 12, 2019
962
The V is likely for 2 heatsinks rather than 2 locations for gpu/cpu. They're not going to separate the apu and increase latency between the gpu and cpu and then again between the two and memory chips.



Did you also know that PRO has native 4k games at 4.2Tf? It's almost as if devs can increase and decrease effects and other power sipping aspects of the game to achieve higher resolution. mind blowing
Your descent into madness continues.



You're in denial.

and it's paragraph after paragraph. I'm honestly thinking about muting or blocking the guy. Man.

cant wait for more leaks tho. This stuff is exciting!
 

Lokimaster

Alt Account
Banned
May 12, 2019
962
Imagine if Microsoft undercuts them by 100$ #bloodbath

i think MS would need to be at least $200 under with a year head start in order to get what they got with 360, even tho they still got beat by the ps3 at the end.

it won't happen tho.
I can actual see Sony doing $399, taking that 100 hit, and just making it up off of psn tho.
 

WhtR88t

Member
May 14, 2018
4,580
Imagine if Microsoft undercuts them by 100$ #bloodbath
Not if Sony keeps producing the level of AAA exclusives they have been for the last 4 generations. It's about the games.

(Unless it comes in at like $699 or something crazy, but even then, if the games are worthy, people would figure out a way to justify the expense.)
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,897
I find this puzzling too. Its like some people don't realize that as long as those souped-up mid gen consoles still have those jaguar CPUs, they won't even be able to run next-gen games.
It's the elephant in the room and you can already see it in threads on this forum where people think Xbox One X is a good enough approximation of the next gen leap. This is what Leadbetter is referring to when he says ignore the spec leaks because even a 10-11TF Navi doesn't sound like a huge leap but it will be once we see the games.
I guess people would need a thorough (but easy to digest) break down of the CPU difference from bottom to top. I wouldn't mind something like that myself.

Well, thinking again, Era would just be Era and continue their takes anyway lol.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,897
I didn't say he tell him specs - Cerny suggest that design was rather smart than raw power. And I don't agree that "he knows no more than any of us here". He said that gonzalo is 99% ps5 couse his source tell this and most people writing here (including me) has no source :)
I don't see why 10TF+ couldn't be smart design. I mean, you said it may be 9.2TF yourself. It isn't like that is a huge difference from 10TF+ (with maybe 11 being max).
 

thevid

Puzzle Master
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,305
Imagine if Microsoft undercuts them by 100$ #bloodbath

What if Scarlett is like 1% less powerful, but $100 cheaper and also Microsoft buys Naughty Dog and Sony Santa Monica, heck, what if they bought Sony and made all Sony games Xbox exclusive, what would the Playstation 5 do?
 

Lokimaster

Alt Account
Banned
May 12, 2019
962
I feel u r way too invested in Xbox being stronger that when we finally see ps5 is indeed stronger you will find stuff (crazy magic that u say it doesn't exist now ). Cause when mind doesn't accept something it will create alternative realities .Every post you make reads the same way lol . Give it a rest maybe and wait and see what happens ?


Its almost as if he thinks he develops games or something. I wanted to tell him to relax, but i know the wouldn't help. He might want to jus wait until something is released about the next xbox.
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
to be fair, digital foundry have not really tried to show they know much yet, klee has, so until DF starts talking more about what they have heard, I'll side with Klee's info
Other than the 1x scoop, when have DF shown to have the inside scoop and broken news stories?
Though I guess to be fair, keeping quiet means you don't piss anyone off and retain your contacts.
 

Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,081
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
Not if Sony keeps producing the level of AAA exclusives they have been for the last 4 generations. It's about the games.

(Unless it comes in at like $699 or something crazy, but even then, if the games are worthy, people would figure out a way to justify the expense.)

Its about the games both platforms have. $100 cheaper with FIFA, CoD and NBA2K at launch is really all you need
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
Its almost as if he thinks he develops games or something. I wanted to tell him to relax, but i know the wouldn't help. He might want to jus wait until something is released about the next xbox.
At this point he has made up his mind and doesn't matter anymore what happens in reality . If Scarlett is stronger then great but if it's not he either finds the smallest aspect that scarlet is stronger and latch on those or just purely creates alternative reality where MS will unlock the power of cloud and ray tracing in cloud and second gpu and all those stuff at the beginning Of last gen . There is this assumption with some of the more hardcore fans that one company has hired talented top of the line geniuses and the other one is bunch of slackers who know nothing but to connect off the shelve parts lol(that goes for both sides ). They have both the most talented team and they will deliver given their constraints.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,781
Come on, I am just talking logical facts here is all on next gen "speculation" thread. I have no idea which one will ultimately have any small edge or not in real world game performance, and nobody else does either at this point. I suppose it is so much better for those who act as if PS5 has a legitimate power advantage based on Klee saying that a 3rd party developer friend said at E3 that there was a very slight PS5 advantage and also that they were essentially equal in performance?
There is really only one constant though. The rumour that PS5 is stronger is the one that persists based on what multiple reliable people have seen/heard. The narrative that Scarlett is stronger was around for quite some time for reasons (some more tenuous than others)… until it no longer was. Before we actually get more info from Microsoft it will probably remain that way.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
People are still forgetting 8rdna tflops is about 13 GCN tflops.

Before Navi was annouced and we knew nothing about Navi, 12gcn tflops was the upper bracket of speculation.

So it makes no sense to think 8tflops is not still excellent., still over 2x the 1x.
 

Chamber

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,279
DF have been saying for quite a while they expect something around the RX 5700 on the PS5, Klee said both console GPUs are double digit TF.
They've also said, twice in the EGX video as a matter of fact, they don't know the CU counts and they don't know the clockspeed. All we have to do is take them at their word and not read into everything.

The fact that people hear "smart design" and automatically assume that points to one thing or another is based on their own preconceptions.
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
People are still forgetting 8rdna tflops is about 13 GCN tflops.

Before Navi was annouced and we knew nothing about Navi, 12gcn tflops was the upper bracket of speculation.

So it makes no sense to think 8tflops is not still excellent., still over 2x the 1x.
I would say 8tf navi is realistic expectation considering recent consoles history and everything above it is just great
 
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