at least the slim has a uhd drive. the ps4 pro let alone the ps4 slim skipped the uhd.
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT6| - Mostly Fan Noise and Hot Air
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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It's obvious 2020 has been the plan for a while given Death Stranding, Ghosts and TLOU 2 were all revealed/showcased E3 2018 or sooner as PS4 titles.
Even if that was true, which it isn't (Ryzen 7 2700 takes that throne), the statement makes little sense.
InFO_MS helps because there's no interposer needed.
And last year Samsung said demand was >2x supply.
AMD's Joe Macri in 2015 talking about HBM (essentially a promotional video)
Makes it seem as if it's better suited for VR, which Sony's definitely invested in. Them still not confirming which type of memory they're using makes me suspect they'll actually go with HBM2.
Would be nice if someone in the know could debunk this if it isn't true. Matt's been good at setting our expectations straight, so... Debunk away, I say!
Makes it seem as if it's better suited for VR, which Sony's definitely invested in. Them still not confirming which type of memory they're using makes me suspect they'll actually go with HBM2.
Would be nice if someone in the know could debunk this if it isn't true. Matt's been good at setting our expectations straight, so... Debunk away, I say!
OP
OP
We don't really know how the R9 280 and lower GPUs will perform in this game until it's out. So saying the XBox One S runs RDR2 better than a 3TF GCN PC GPU is just guess work based on the system requirements until it has been tested.
We don't even know what the minimum system requirements are targeting in terms of graphical settings as they're quite vague to say the least.
Could it be Xbox One quality settings at 900p 30 fps? Or even PS4 quality settings at 1080p 30, or even 900p to 1080p 60 fps? We don't know.
Red Dead Redemption 2 is even rumoured to feature DX12 and Vulkan based on information some people found in the Rockstar Games Launcher, this will certainly be of much benefit to PC Gamers as good implementations of these APIs can really make a huge difference for performance.
The inclusion of these will certainly make it one of the most fascinating PC releases to date!
Edit - Expanded post and made it clearer.
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Cool. Sounds good! Really hope everything comes together as well as it sounds like it could be.
Exactly that. They also seem to just be extremely paranoid about introducing any kind of incompatibility, no matter how small. Remember how the PS4 Pro didn't even have a boost mode at launch? Cerny seemed convinced that it would cause problems but once it was added only one game had issues and they were able to fix it relatively quickly.
Yes, however, I think the InFO_MS is not only a different method of doing it without an interposer... t also has its complications too.
The method I amtaling abot is based on what is already being employed in MCM (multi-chip module) designs. Basically what they are already using with regards to their chiplet based zen CPUs.
The CCX cores are all placed on an organic substrate. And connected to each other via an infinity fabric (what AMD calls it). This is an all-round cheaper way to go about things. Orders of agnitude cheaper and easier to do than what HBM2 is doing with an interposer.
HBM3 would have you replace that interposer with the same organic substrate used in MCMs, and would support traces of up to 512bit per stack.
The dev kits used the same motherboard layout and were already populated with 8GB of GDDR5. The amount shipped in retail units was strictly a cost and availability question, not a change to a different memory controller. Not even a board layout change. Or even a tools change. It was an opportunistic shift with supply chain implications and little else.
Nonsense. Pick a topic on which you're qualified to speak when making an authoritative claim like that. There have been any number of posts from people here pointing out that silicon gets locked pretty early on in the process. As someone who has been personally involved in launching multi-million selling mass-market products around custom silicon, I can assure you once again that this is the case. Early dev kits fail to represent the final hardware not because it's in a constant state of flux, but because designs take so long to finalize and are so expensive to tape out and test that they're in a strict timeline that doesn't line up with game development needs - so you start on the best off-the-shelf approximation you can get until real hardware is available.
Team 2019 was right for a while, so it gets to live on forever. In a different timeline, a bright and beautiful one, we were champions.
It's a race between that and Team <8TF.
...and what we came to realize was that with no backwards compatibility, we had no choice but to look forward.
The past is best left to them memories, as seeds to the need of growing further and beyond.
I wonder if Sony has decided to use some form of HBM, but they don't yet know which one due to the question of whether or not HBM3 will be available, hence why they haven't confirmed the RAM type yet.
Team 8TF still exists?
Borderline impossible. At this point, they have to have a finished design and are probably signing long-term production contracts already.
That's fair. I was considering the idea that they might have two designs that were mostly identical apart from the RAM with plans to pick one once manufacturing started but I suppose it can't work like that. And it seems like they can't just switch HBM2 out for HBM3 in the design either.
1. Your capital costs if you make a huge design change also change. You would have to distribute that cost to the consumer, or write it off. The latter is double the cost incurred. This is how accounting in business works i.e. you need a dollar (preferably profit) to write off money that is either a loss, or badly allocated expenditure.
2. HBM was announced in 2013. The first application for it were AMD's Fiji GPU's. GDDR6 was announced in 2016 and was in production in 2018. HBM costs have really never come down enough to make it affordable for mass consumption. More telling however, is the fact that console developers have generally used RAM types that have been in production as opposed to going for something that is still not in use. Getting rid of the spec talk, design changes, the lower voltage usage etc, Sony going HBM3 instead of HBM2 or even GDDR6 would be a huge deviation from what has traditionally happened in the console space. It is for this reason that I speculate that we will not see them going for this as a solution.
They will also be looking at history. DDR platform is something that has evolved, power consumption gone down with each iteration as speeds have gone up. What is to say that we will not see it further evolution of the platform?
3. You are designing a console around what is needed. You have a GPU, and a CPU. At peak, what is the total memory bandwidth that they can use? There is no need of investing in excess capacity if it can be avoided. A $1200 nvidia card uses 11GB VRAM at 616GB/s. Going again by history, we will not be getting a card that is anywhere near that in performance, so why would anyone need 700GB/s in bandwidth for the entire SOC? It looks like overkill especially when you consider that people are talking about a smaller chip. You could clock it higher, but how much higher? 15%?
To me, it seems like you would be jumping through a lot of hoops to try and make HBM3 work.
No, them not announcing it has nothing to do with whatever kinda RAM they are using. But it does lead me to believe that there will something good/bad about it which is why its the one thing that has seemingly purposefully not mentioned. However, whatever they are using? Its very well set in stone by now.
Everything I said about the MCM approach to HBM3 has been making the rounds from Samsung since 2016. It used to be called LCHBM. It may not even be still in development. But one thing for certain is that HBM3 has a lot of o design initiatives prioritizing affordability.
Fair points.
I disagree with the whole them not doing something because it goes against precedent thing though.
And HBM3 doesn't " have" to be 700GB+, they can even clock it lower to use even less power, which is one of the major benefits it has over GDDR6 which uses as much as 4.5x the power of HBM2 and HBM3 uses even less power than that. In a console, A 10-15W delta can make a world of difference. And we don'thave to guess the power of GDDR6, we know what it is per chip right now, and can calculate how much power it will draw. And that draw will remain constant along the course of the generation, as long as its GDDR6 that is being used.
And you are blatantly ignoring that there are ways that HBM3 can be made even cheaper and incorporated at a lower cost... why? Simply because no one else as done it yet?
And don't you see that rumors of sony using a smaller chip actually point more to HBM than it does to GDDR6?
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Well, fingers crossed, and hopefully we know in a few months. Still hoping the January 22/Sony Hall rumour was legit.
On that - how far in advance are daily and nightly events at places like Sony Hall booked? As in, normal events that don't need secrecy or anything? Is it possible that we could reach November or December and find that Sony Hall has booked every night up to February, with the sole exception of a suspiciously blank January 22?
I still think we might have full PS4,PS3,PS2 & PS1 BC on the PS5 and not just PS4 BC, mainly because of Microsoft having full Xbox (OG,360,One) BC on the Xbox Scarlett, they'd lose the BC marketing edge next year to MS, and from what we've heard Sony really cares about perfecting BC for next gen, so much so to the point of delaying the console by a year from a decision made in 2017,.
Now i'd be shocked that given that 3 year window from 2017 to 2020 Sony didn't consider full BC support going into the next gen PlayStation console and not just PS4 BC, something just doesn't sit right with needing 3 years just for getting PS4 BC 101% spot on, especially given that both consoles are x86 machines and Sony has already dabbled on PS4 console to console compatibility with the PS4 OG to Pro.
i am 80% - 85% sure that we'll get full Playstation BC support into the PS5.
Now i'd be shocked that given that 3 year window from 2017 to 2020 Sony didn't consider full BC support going into the next gen PlayStation console and not just PS4 BC, something just doesn't sit right with needing 3 years just for getting PS4 BC 101% spot on, especially given that both consoles are x86 machines and Sony has already dabbled on PS4 console to console compatibility with the PS4 OG to Pro.
i am 80% - 85% sure that we'll get full Playstation BC support into the PS5.
Remastered in 8K@120fps yes please.
I actually want to know how bad an old PSP game would scale in a 50 inch TV lol.
Hope so, that'd be amazing. Still need to finish Suikoden II...
I am not ignoring that HBM3 can be made cheaper. But what makes something cheaper? It is refinement of the process, and scaling up of production. If there is high production/supply and high demand, what usually happens is that costs can be spread over a larger canvas so you end up having a high volume, lower margin business. It also allows for a faster break even point, and because it is something that is selling extremely well, you are likely to have more players coming investing in capacity. Competition is something that will now bring in even more cost reductions. This at the end of the day is what drives economies of scale.
When the demand is weaker, you do not have the same economies of scale. We now live in a worldwide economy where people want the cheapest goods. Governments and central banks which always want to have some inflation have had a problem generating it because of just how interconnected the worldwide economy is. So, you get some niche products that are high end, that can charge a premium, but to the rest of the market, it is a bloodbath where companies are simply trying to sell enough sometimes to just stay in business.
This is why you never see new tech adopted fast enough if the cost benefit is not there. This in turn means that there is not much demand to force prices down.....it is a vicious cycle. So console manufacturers will go for a known entity, not competing for the fastest chips on the market either, because those also cost more.
You started with design A, pumped money into it. You have now abandoned that and are planning a new design, which also costs money to have a more expensive RAM type whose costs will likely not come down as fast going by how HBM prices have behaved. There are people that sign off on expenditure, and they are more concerned about the bottom line than they are innovation.
Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo will not be chasing new tech if the price is not right. Cost at the end of the day is what drives the console business. Sony/Microsoft could have gone for more capable Intel CPU's in 2013, could have gone with SSD solutions or better GPU's. They did not because they are building something for the masses.
There's a lot of Metal Gear games that ive yet to play but really want to experience, had a 360 Last gen so i only got to play MGS2,3,PW from the HD remaster and MGS:GZ,TP on the PS4, in fact the PS4 was my first playstation console, there's a lot of exclusives from the PS1,PS2,PS3 days that i really want to play with the added benefit of a 4K/8K @ uncapped frames.
lol I assume you're joking about the 120fps but a 9x resolution boost across the board similar to what Xbox has for OG titles would be amazing for Vita and PSP
Ah wow. Massive potential backlog for you then, haha. I was pretty much Sony only from PS2-PS4 and had both portables too. So I'm hoping to get access to my old PS3/PS1 classic digital purchases. Not really holding out any hope for PSP and Vita games but who knows?
Xbox doesn't have the deep back catalog Sony does (though still plenty of gems), but knowing MS respects those purchases and wants me to be able to go back and play Gears 1-4 before Gears 5 came out, for example, has really added some shine to the XB1 that I hope Sony matches. Like, I literally bought the Lost Odyssey DLC on a friend's 360 back in 2009 and there it was waiting for me in 2018 when I got my first Xbox. Hope that becomes standard. Seems we are finally getting enough power on the PS side to make it possible.
Mainly uncapped frames on previous gens, wanna see how crazy those old games look once you take off the technical leash, plus they need something to showcase that 8K/120fps marketing push they've been telling us lol.
Yeah Xbox's commitment to backwards compatibility has been nothing but stellar and a great love letter to their fans, hope Sony follow the same suit, it is insane how big Sony's library is when you combine all the games released from the PS1 to PS4, imagine announcing FULL BC support for the PS5 both disc and digital? it would dominate the global news next year come release.
"In a console, A 10-15W delta can make a world of difference." Lmao
It's a mistake to think minimum requirements are consistent. I've seen games where the minimum requirements delivered way past console performance and I've seen games where the minimum requirements gave you 20fps at 720p.
You haven't actually lost the argument yet. It's still possible for the 750ti to match the PS4 in RDR2, but it's rather unlikely.
Don't know why you think it is funny as he is right.
112 watts for the Xbox One vs. 137 watts for the PlayStation 4 aka 900p vs. 1080p.
What is the difference in wattage between the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X? Or do we just throw numbers when they suit?
It is just one loose example. There is more to it obviiously but if you can't see a difference for example between 900p and 1080p you shouldn't discuss here anyway.
Power consumption is never steady but Xbox one x is up to 180 watt and Ps4 pro up to 160 watts.
Edit: Power consumption differs from game to game obviously.
Why do you think I can't see difference ? You don't know it but I know that you can't see difference betwren 25w and 10-15w :d
Then just define the meaning behind "worlds" so I get the idea behind your comments. Phoenix was talking about power consumption of only a part of the entire system what has an even more impact than the overall power consumption since cooling would be different accordingly and so on... To laugh about 10- 15 watts less power consumption of only a component of the entire system that impacts other parts significantly is just false.
Still thinking that statement 10-15w is world difference when both console will probably be around 180-200w is funny exageration, if this is not so funny for you, hmm whatever ;)
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