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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - nm

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Firmus_Anguis

Firmus_Anguis

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,120
Expy said:
Man... leave them alone, seriously. You're going to drive these guys away or make them stop posting. Believe what you want, do your own research. If others wanted to chyme in on the rumors and leaks talked about in here, they'd be free to do so by their own will.
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Referring to my post? At least quote me, if that's the case. Considering that Richard at DF has repeatedly encouraged people to lower their expectations, especially when it comes to tflop numbers, I thought it'd be interesting to see if anything's changed on that front. I personally believe Klee - Simply because it also corrobarates some of the stuff Schreier has been saying/teasing for years (who obviously knows more than he is sharing with anyone here).

I'm not forcing anyone to answer me, I'm not being brutish either - I'm genuinely curious.
 
AegonSnake

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Vimto Found this comparison of performance between vega 56 and the 5700xt. You are not getting double performance of vega 56 from every game. there will always be outliers like Destiny 2 on stadia but this is the most comprehensive comparison out there.

relative-performance_1920-1080.png

Expy said:
Man... leave them alone, seriously. You're going to drive these guys away or make them stop posting. Believe what you want, do your own research. If others wanted to chyme in on the rumors and leaks talked about in here, they'd be free to do so by their own will.
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there is no harm in asking. Dictator is literally the only current industry professional who bothers to visit this thread. I dont think he is going away just because someone asks him a few questions about what he knows. he's also a journalist so its not like he would be getting in trouble by breaking NDAs.
 
sncvsrtoip

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
AegonSnake said:
there is no harm in asking. Dictator is literally the only current industry professional who bothers to visit this thread. I dont think he is going away just because someone asks him a few questions about what he knows. he's also a journalist so its not like he would be getting in trouble by breaking NDAs.
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Yeah but writing bs that he claims that ps5 rt will be only use in shadows can be irritating.
 

Lagspike_exe

Banned
Dec 15, 2017
1,974
Vimto said:
I think stadia has demonstrated how meaningless Tflops as a metric is. Its a 10.7 tflops machine with embarrassing performance.

For comparison with navi 5700XT (9.7TF)

Destiny 2:

Stadia = 1080 @60 fps medium settings

Navi 5700XT = 1080 @ 133fps ultra settings. (106 fps at 1440p)

This is literally >2x the perf while also having lower tflops than stadia.

Its just a useless metric and people here are fighting over it.
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Not really comparable. Vega 56 will get you better performance on Windows. I think Linux is killing Stadia's performance figures a lot. People underestimate just how well optimized DX12 is these days.
 
Expy

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,865
Firmus_Anguis said:
Referring to my post? At least quote me, if that's the case. Considering that Richard at DF has repeatedly encouraged people to lower their expectations, especially when it comes to tflop numbers, I thought it'd be interesting to see if anything's changed on that front. I personally believe Klee - Simply because it also corrobarates some of the stuff Schreier has been saying/teasing for years (who obviously knows more than he is sharing with anyone here).

I'm not forcing anyone to answer me, I'm not being brutish either - I'm genuinely curious.
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AegonSnake said:
Vimto
there is no harm in asking. Dictator is literally the only current industry professional who bothers to visit this thread. I dont think he is going away just because someone asks him a few questions about what he knows. he's also a journalist so its not like he would be getting in trouble by breaking NDAs.
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Not that post specifically. A general sentiment.
 
HaloForzaGuy

HaloForzaGuy

Member
Nov 11, 2017
694
Kreten said:
Doesn't MS typically rerelease newest version of current gen hardware just before the new gen starts? In this case probably doing Xbox one X on 7nm and $199 price tag with Scarlett at $499. They essentially already got rid of original xbox where barely anyone is on it still. With low price and new package on X they get people off of S and move the bar forwards.

Do you know anything about UWP scaling and what MS was saying of games scaling all the way down to windows phones with it?
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Agree, also think the whole backward forward compat thing they touting for next gen games is only gonna be between one x and scarlet
 
chris 1515

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Lagspike_exe said:
Not really comparable. Vega 56 will get you better performance on Windows. I think Linux is killing Stadia's performance figures a lot. People underestimate just how well optimized DX12 is these days.
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Stadia use Vulkan, I doubt using Vulkan and Linux give a so poor result. For example, the Vulkan version of RDR 2 on Windows PC performs well. Here this is horrible maybe they have some heat limitation inside the server like the GPU are not fully using their potential.
 
BradGrenz

BradGrenz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,507
Vimto said:
I think stadia has demonstrated how meaningless Tflops as a metric is. Its a 10.7 tflops machine with embarrassing performance.

For comparison with navi 5700XT (9.7TF)

Destiny 2:

Stadia = 1080 @60 fps medium settings

Navi 5700XT = 1080 @ 133fps ultra settings. (106 fps at 1440p)

This is literally >2x the perf while also having lower tflops than stadia.

Its just a useless metric and people here are fighting over it.
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I think it's likely Stadia is running multiple game instances on a single GPU in certain cases...
 

Lagspike_exe

Banned
Dec 15, 2017
1,974
chris 1515 said:
Stadia use Vulkan, I doubt using Vulkan and Linux give a so poor result. For example, the Vulkan version of RDR 2 on Windows PC performs well. Here this is horrible maybe they have some heat limitation inside the server like the GPU are not fully using their potential.
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There is something terribly wrong then.
Here Vega 56 hits 161.1 FPS in 1080p at HIGH:

This is with 7700K, but even if it it's not Ryzen optimized the gap is simply impossible.

BradGrenz said:
I think it's likely Stadia is running multiple game instances on a single GPU in certain cases...
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I was thinking the same thing.
 
SharpX68K

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,518
Chicagoland
Speaking of just FLOPS, the 1993 coin-op arcade Ridge Racer, powered by Namco's high-end System 22 hardware, was a staggering 400 MFLOPS.

It's even written right on the Japanese flyer.

YmmCJyQ.jpg

400 million floating point operations per second.

That's 0.4 GFLOPs.
 
chris 1515

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
AegonSnake

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
DukeBlueBall said:
Each WGP is around 5mm2.
Each 64 bit GDDR6 memory controller is ~10mm2.

Suppose 300mm2 EUV is equivalent to ~350mm2 N7P. TSMC says the density improvement is 20%, but I'll use a more conservative figure of 15%.

We have 100mm2 extra N7P to play with in comparison to the 250mm2 of the Navi 10.

-20mm2 for two extra GDDR6 memory controllers.
-60mm2 for 12 extra WGP.
leaves 20mm2 for some RT hardware.

I have not increased the number of shader engines. What do you think.
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How many CUs are in this GPU?
 
PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,620
AegonSnake said:
lol. I am reading the 'Crytek wants 8GB of RAM in next gen consoles' thread on the older board and my god the replies on the first page are hilarious. Definitely google and check it out. I will post some of the replies because it reminded me of how pessimistic this thread can get. We might be on era now but we are still the same cynical and pessimistic people.
















And thats just the first page.

As always Shinobi had the insight few people in the thread possessed.



I dont know if next gen consoles will have 12-14 tflops. I dont know if they will have HBM. All i know is that its not a dream to expect amazing things from consoles. If Cerny gave us 8GB GDDR5 in a $399 console that was 50% more powerful than its closest competitor than with $499 he can do wonders.
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This is was even much worse considreing it came from a developer who downplayed next-gen consoles back then when RTX was announced by claiming that next-gen won't have RT and will be underpowered to pack such tech and only next next gen will be able to do so: https://www.gamespot.com/forums/sys...racing-is-a-feature-for-next-33427703/?page=1

I really didn't like such attitude twoard toward next-gen and the lack of optimism and vision especially coming from a developer, while myself, I was expecting RT to be part orf next-gen becasue it was curcial part to justify next-gen otehrwise next-gen would be obsolete and useless.
chris 1515 posted about it back then.
 
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PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,620
AegonSnake said:
Vimto Found this comparison of performance between vega 56 and the 5700xt. You are not getting double performance of vega 56 from every game. there will always be outliers like Destiny 2 on stadia but this is the most comprehensive comparison out there.

relative-performance_1920-1080.png


there is no harm in asking. Dictator is literally the only current industry professional who bothers to visit this thread. I dont think he is going away just because someone asks him a few questions about what he knows. he's also a journalist so its not like he would be getting in trouble by breaking NDAs.
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IIRC the RTX 2080 surpasses the RX 5700 XT in 1080p and 1440p reoslution but sometimes slightly fails behind it in 4K resolution in some games. RDR2 is the last tested one.
 
III-V

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
Nah, there is something straight up busted about Destiny 2 on Stadia. Its not using the full GPU for certain. The question is: was that the intent?

10.7 TF should get you better than medium PC settings at 1080P/60 FPS upscaled to 4K.
 

Deleted member 56752

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 15, 2019
8,699
when xbox says in their video on scarlett that frame rate is what they're pushing and that they're seeing fps of 120 fps, is that the target? My 4k tv doesn't have that high of a refresh rate. I only want 60 fps and then the effects/graphics to be focus. Anything beyond 60 fps on most console games imho is overkill. You get diminishing returns by not refocusing that extra power on fidelity/effects
 
Expy

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,865
III-V said:
Nah, there is something straight up busted about Destiny 2 on Stadia. Its not using the full GPU for certain. The question is: was that the intent?

10.7 TF should get you better than medium PC settings at 1080P/60 FPS upscaled to 4K.
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The port is probably subpar and rushed.
 
GUNDAM STARDUST

GUNDAM STARDUST

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
BoxingIsCool said:
when xbox says in their video on scarlett that frame rate is what they're pushing and that they're seeing fps of 120 fps, is that the target? My 4k tv doesn't have that high of a refresh rate. I only want 60 fps and then the effects/graphics to be focus. Anything beyond 60 fps on most console games imho is overkill. You get diminishing returns by not refocusing that extra power on fidelity/effects
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Pretty sure they know most users won't have the display for that as do developers. Some folks do hook up monitors though so it's cool they can support. I wouldn't worry about that TBQH. Rarely have we seen developers focus on that.
 
DukeBlueBall

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
BoxingIsCool said:
when xbox says in their video on scarlett that frame rate is what they're pushing and that they're seeing fps of 120 fps, is that the target?
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It's the target. Scarlett's CPU is at least 4x over the 1X. The only way to use the extra CPU horsepower while maintaining feature parity for cross-platform games is through frame rates.

Example:

Halo Infinite Campaign:
X1: 30fps locked, 1080p
XB1X: 40-60fps, 4k
Lockhart: 120fps, 1080p+
Anaconda: 120fps, 4k+.
 
SharpX68K

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,518
Chicagoland
Kleegamefan said:
IMHO they aren't small Navi and they aren't big Navi either

They are the "just right" Navi twins hahaha
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To be clear, I have no more information on Big Navi than anyone else, but if it's better than Prospero GPU, then Holy Shit.
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I've been thinking about this for awhile, and I'm just gonna guess now that PS5 Navi is not less than 48 active out of 52 on-chip CUs.

For comparison, the original base PS4 had 18 active out of 20 on-chip CUs.
 
BreakAtmo

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,838
Australia
GUNDAM STARDUST said:
Pretty sure they know most users won't have the display for that as do developers. Some folks do hook up monitors though so it's cool they can support. I wouldn't worry about that TBQH. Rarely have we seen developers focus on that.
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To be fair, a year from now there will be a lot more 120fps display owners. LG's 2019 OLEDs with HDMI 2.1, 120hz and VRR have been popular, and it's very likely that that feature set will be in most of the new TVs coming next year. Most people who go and buy a nice new TV to go with their nice new PS5 or Xbox Scarlett will be able to use 120fps. I think that's a good justification for some games to at least get 120fps modes, but probably only older PS4/X1 titles.
 
foolishoptimist

foolishoptimist

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,847
Vimto said:
I think stadia has demonstrated how meaningless Tflops as a metric is. Its a 10.7 tflops machine with embarrassing performance.

For comparison with navi 5700XT (9.7TF)

Destiny 2:

Stadia = 1080 @60 fps medium settings

Navi 5700XT = 1080 @ 133fps ultra settings. (106 fps at 1440p)

This is literally >2x the perf while also having lower tflops than stadia.

Its just a useless metric and people here are fighting over it.
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Stadia, being a streaming platform, encoding and bandwidth has to be taken into consideration.
It's currently limited to 60fps regardless of gpu capabilities. 120fps support is yet to come, but is announced.

Not sure why they'd have settings capped at Medium though.
 
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Mitchman1411

Mitchman1411

Member
Jul 28, 2018
635
Oslo, Norway
PLASTICA-MAN said:
I know it's just the highest in the Zen 2 architecture. Zen 3 could be even more advanced and optimised that the baseline could be even higher than 16 Cores so 24 core for next-gen could have been done if they adopted Zen 3.
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You can get 64c/128t Zen 2 based CPUs now, the EPYC server CPUs and the new Threadripper 3000 CPUs both offers that. Not viable in any console due to high power usage and high cooling requirment. Even the Ryzen 9 3950 16c/32t CPU needs water cooling.
 
PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,620
Mitchman1411 said:
You can get 64c/128t Zen 2 based CPUs now, the EPYC server CPUs and the new Threadripper 3000 CPUs both offers that. Not viable in any console due to high power usage and high cooling requirment. Even the Ryzen 9 3950 16c/32t CPU needs water cooling.
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Like I said and in the article Zen 3 is very optimsied and a complete overhaul of the architecture. Forcing higher Cores in Zen 2 arcitecture will be clunky, bloated and liek you said requring so much cooling. If the Zen 3 si that advanced and can have much mmore Cores as baseline, I don't know why this won't be possible for consoles to get a higher numebr of cores too. It's the same with RDNA vs GCN, the new form has more transistors, is smaller, and even with similar flop count it performs better than the former one.
 
Imitation Of Life

Imitation Of Life

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,205
PLASTICA-MAN said:
Edit wait what? Zen 3 gonna have 64 cores/128 threads? O_O
And still use DDR4? XD By then DDR5 should already have released.

I really wished next-gen consoels at leats another year for 2021. By then we would be sure they will have Zen 3 and RDNA2 (if not 3).
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No thanks. Current gen is struggling right now. PC if you want the absolutely latest tech.
 
Kreten

Kreten

Banned
Nov 16, 2019
323
AegonSnake said:
Well, they themselves said 40x performance increases over the current gen. im assuming that means its 40x faster.




I had gotten the 4GBps number from some posters in the thread. I actually have no idea what current gen HDD speeds are. i only deal in tflops.
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Supposedly xbox one is 90MB/s and S at 100MB/s and X at 140MB/s.

Average (user benchmark) for xbox one drive was around 80mb/s, don't remember exact number.
 
TheThreadsThatBindUs

TheThreadsThatBindUs

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
MrKlaw said:
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OMG!!!! 🤣

Thank you for this, MrKlaw. I just spat out my tea and i'm here splitting my sides.

Username-required said:
Hobnobs make the best biscuit base 👌
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You gotdamnrite!!

Kleegamefan said:
I actually love cheesecake.

True Story
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Lemon, vanilla or mama's homemade Snickers cheesecake?

Flutter said:
Pretty happy to just lurk when the passive aggressiveness in this thread starts getting annoying.
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Just try and engage with the more sensible posts and ignore the noise. If everyone stops posting when the thread starts to get derailed, the signal to noise ratio swings too far the wrong way.
 
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