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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - nm

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
1,754
I mean, that is like one of the only games right... that is also 1st party, coming out at towards the end of a gen cycle. And still doesn't hit 4k native.

I think back of when I played Division 2 on X1. Sure it was '4k', but the settings were way low. A proper PC made it look like a different game almost.
Nextgen consoles will have around 2x more powerful gpu than xox, more than 4x cpu, more ram and ssd that even hard to compare, don't be worry ;)
 

CosmicBolt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
629
Was posted in the SIE worldwide studios thread.

Not sure this has been posted before but Sony has established a new organization named 'Sony AI'


Relevant portions from the PR:

Sony AI will combine world class fundamental research and development with Sony's unique technical assets, especially in Imaging & Sensing Solutions, Robotics and Entertainment (Games, Music and Movies), driving transformation across all existing business domains and contributing to the creation of new business domains.

Initially, Sony AI will launch three flagship projects in the areas of gaming, imaging & sensing, and gastronomy. The adoption of new AI technologies developed through these flagship projects will be critical to further enhancing the value of Sony's gaming and sensor businesses in coming years. This research will be pursued in close collaboration with the relevant Sony Group business units.
 

Mr.Beep

Member
Oct 30, 2017
609
Nextgen consoles will have around 2x more powerful gpu than xox, more than 4x cpu, more ram and ssd that even hard to compare, don't be worry ;)
Yeah I get that.. but people seem to forget games will become more demanding as well as the ability of hardware increases.

It will be very interesting to see how it all pans out indeed, so fingers crossed. Looking forward to going back to the couch for certain single player games.
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
1,754
Yeah I get that.. but people seem to forget games will become more demanding as well as the ability of hardware increases.

It will be very interesting to see how it all pans out indeed, so fingers crossed. Looking forward to going back to the couch for certain single player games.
Rather easy to guess. Cross gen games will be native 4k on nextgens but games with nextgen engines will probably often use some reconstructions technics.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
4,163
Those are low-end drives, Sony and Microsoft will not use slow SATA drives.
From what I've been told the actual cost of producing an NVMe SSD is about the same as making a SATA SSD. Companies just sell the former for more because they can. And if we're right about Sony having a custom aspirin where they just buy the NAND flash chips and solder them onto the board, that would apparently be even cheaper.
 

Melchiah

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,959
Helsinki, Finland
"Faster than any other gaming device on the market"

I don't think they'll put lots of emphasis on flops and power.
They won't mention numbers, because then people will think it's not a huge jump because of the 6tf Xbox one X.
After this disaster launch do they really need to market against Stadia? ;)
Heh, true. It might be a bit troublesome to give emphasis on teraflops, but pointing out what RDNA power translates as GCN would make the difference more clear.
EDIT: Come to think of it, if they're not going to address it, the general public might think they're on equal footing with Stadia.

Personally, I'm still amazed we're getting an equivalent of 12-14Tf GCN, as that seemed to be an unreachable dream few years ago.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,953
I wonder how they're going to market +10Tf RDNA against Stadia's +10Tf GCN?
I don't think Stadia is using all 10.7 TF. For reference, I played on a wired ethernet connection (>100 Mbps) into an iMac Chrome Browser.

I used a DS4 controller which was immediately and seamlessly recognized. Within less than 30 seconds of opening a chrome browser you can be playing the game. Launches are very fast, loads are very short, which was nice especially for D2, which has shit load times on consoles. At any point you can swap to m/k, essentially you could control with both if you wanted. M/K felt responsive but I generally am a controller guy.

I have played SamSho, which played very smoothly and felt fast and responsive and looked clean.
Then I swapped to Destiny 2 which felt like I was dropping frames all over in battles. And Destiny is running at 1080P/60. I played D2 again this morning - same thing. It seems like frames are dropping, not like the stream is lagging. If they fix the frame drops and up the resolution this will be very nice indeed. The presentation was muddy.

Latency on D2 or SamShow was not an issue, felt very responsive.
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,872
I have been thinking about the MS stance to release everything on x1 original to Scarlett and releasing games from their studios very often on Gamepass to keep the subscription model alive . Can the studio really shine technically and impress When the competition base will be ps5 ?

Already Sony studios are known for their technical prowess . Wouldn’t this become even more evident next gen?

Is that why they r choosing stylized graphics to hide that ? (Ofcourse I m talking about exclusives)
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,745
Barcelona Spain
The higher the resolution the bigger the gap between the 2080 & 5700xt becomes in favor of the 2080. This is logical because at higher resolutions the influence from the CPU on the average framerate becomes smaller and smaller.


In some games a 5700xt does match a 2080, but then again in some games a 2060 matches a 5700xt. That's why you should always look at the average of as many games as possible if you want to compare cards.
Wait next year and the year after when all the game will be Direct X12 and Vulkan only. The AMD card performance is better on this API. On software side, RDR 2 is probably the best example of how the API will be used. Vulkan will be use more often because of Stadia and DX12 because of raytracing, a new gen of consoles with some features only available in Direct X12 and Windows 10 being the defacto Windows if someone for any reason stay on Windows 7 Vulkan work there.
 

Colbert

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,602
Germany
I have been thinking about the MS stance to release everything on x1 original to Scarlett and releasing games from their studios very often on Gamepass to keep the subscription model alive . Can the studio really shine technically and impress When the competition base will be ps5 ?

Already Sony studios are known for their technical prowess . Wouldn’t this become even more evident next gen?

Is that why they r choosing stylized graphics to hide that ? (Ofcourse I m talking about exclusives)
Is your opinion a game is bad / not as great just because it also will be released into a subscription?
 
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Oct 27, 2017
4,087
Somewhere South
Already Sony studios are known for their technical prowess . Wouldn’t this become even more evident next gen?
When Guerrilla Games show off HZD2 with a crazy amount of persistent AI entities (like robot packs that roam the map), anything that has to run on a Jaguar CPU and HDD will look absolutely outdated.

MS focus on talking about framerates pretty much confirms to me that their approach will be designing games for the baseline and then just using the extra GPU and CPU to crank out more frames.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,745
Barcelona Spain
Rather easy to guess. Cross gen games will be native 4k on nextgens but games with nextgen engines will probably often use some reconstructions technics.
I think most and nearly all first party games will be 4k 30 fps native. Next generation the number of polygons will probably be multiply by four. And each time you increase the polygons number for efficieny you need to increase the resolution.

Edit: And many open world third party games will be like this.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,953
Honestly I would like to hear Sony talk about frame rate more and make that a priority like MS is doing in their messaging.
 

Bits N Pieces

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,206
Scotland
From Phil's interview in The Guardian.

"One of the things we’ve really focused on with Scarlett is how games feel,” he says. “It’s not just feel in terms of input, though that is a big focus, but also, how long does it take me to get into a game? CPU capability is a part of that. Current gen consoles are like arm wrestlers – they have one big arm, which is the GPU, and one little arm, which is the CPU. When those things are more balanced, it will allow us to provide a better game feel through frame rate consistency and lower input latency. But I also think that can transfer through to the emotional feel we get in game. As you remove some of the ‘noise’ that we have to block out when we’re playing a game, developers will be able to use that sense of immersion to drive ever thoughtful storytelling."
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,872
Is your opinion a game bad / not as great just because it also will be released into a subscription?
No but I would assume they wouldn’t create high budget single player games that would take 5 years to make and release it there as subscribers need constant flow of games. So type of games that will be released will become different by nature to what I love . So TO ME it becomes much less interesting
 

Mitchman1411

Member
Jul 28, 2018
425
Oslo, Norway
From what I've been told the actual cost of producing an NVMe SSD is about the same as making a SATA SSD. Companies just sell the former for more because they can. And if we're right about Sony having a custom aspirin where they just buy the NAND flash chips and solder them onto the board, that would apparently be even cheaper.
There are many different types of NAND (and NOR, eg. SLC, TLC, QLC, MLC etc) with different price points based on requirements and use case, so I don't think it's possible to compare directly. For instance, for best performance, Sony should choose SLC but that is also the most expensive. I assume there are speed differences and there are certainly price differences for the controller used (Phison, Samsung, etc). NVMe drives typically need a passive heatsink (or even active cooling in some cases) due to the heat generated, presumably because they are clocked much higher than many SATA SSDs.
So yeah, the actual cost of producing a low-end NVMe SSD might be comparable to a SATA SSD in some cases when both are using the same NAND type.
 

Saberus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
68
Vancouver, BC
We are about a year away from seeing next gen consoles and there still isn't any news about if Sony would return to E3 next year :(
We'lI would say there's 80% chance that Feb will be the PS5 premier like most believe, and It would be suicide for them to miss out of E3 next year, so I would think they will be there. Both Sony and MS have big year coming up.
 

napata

Member
Nov 2, 2017
603
Wait next year and the year after when all the game will be Direct X12 and Vulkan only. The AMD card performance is better on this API. On software side, RDR 2 is probably the best example of how the API will be used. Vulkan will be use more often because of Stadia and DX12 because of raytracing, a new gen of consoles with some features only available in Direct X12 and Windows 10 being the defacto Windows if someone for any reason stay on Windows 7 Vulkan work there.
Engines are more determining for the Nvidia vs AMD performance discussion than the API. For example any UE4 game generally run better on Nvidia hardware, regardless of which API was used. Even on DX11 RDR2 would probably favor AMD by a significant amount. This is a Vulkan game before RDR2 for example: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt/27.html. You can see that Turing dominates here.

In the past Nvidia GPUs lost performance in DX12 & Vulkan while AMD cards gained performance. However from what I've seen Turing gains a similar amount of performance from these APIs as AMD cards. It's why Turing wins in Wolfenstein 2, while Pascal suffers: ie the 1080 is behind even a Vega 56. It's likely that Wolfenstein's engine favors Nvidia but older Nvidia cards take a hit in performance because of Vulkan whereas Turing doesn't suffer from this.

Also once games start using VRS the gap between Turing & the 5700xt will only grow.
 

Red Tapir

Member
May 10, 2019
413
Is your opinion a game is bad / not as great just because it also will be released into a subscription?
The point is that a "tiered XBox model" would largely rely on whether third party devs decide to stick to it.
If MS says you can play your games across XBoxes, but most releases become next-gen exclusive, then it'd be massively ineffective.

This isn't even accounting on all the limitations exclusives would need to stick with to even make this model viable.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,712
When Guerrilla Games show off HZD2 with a crazy amount of persistent AI entities (like robot packs that roam the map), anything that has to run on a Jaguar CPU and HDD will look absolutely outdated.

MS focus on talking about framerates pretty much confirms to me that their approach will be designing games for the baseline and then just using the extra GPU and CPU to crank out more frames.
Yeah, that is what it seems to me as well. It would align with their Game Pass initiative too.

And while I don’t think it will impact quality all that much, there will be noticeable gameplay differences as you said.
 

Kleegamefan

Member
Dec 16, 2017
800
Hi, this is probably my first post in the thread. You clearly says that PS5 has more flops than Scarlett. But what about real performance in game?
Right now, game performance is better on PS5. I believe that is probably because PS5 development hardware and software are in a more advanced state. I fully expect Scarlett to close that gap once they ship more mature dev kits and software.

Also

It must be said, since software, not hardware, is a traditional Microsoft area of expertise, it's very possible that they could ultimately deliver more advanced DirecX development software in the end allowing games to run better on Scarlett even if the hardware is less capable.

I don't know this to be the case, but the possibility can't be discounted.
 
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Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,872
When Guerrilla Games show off HZD2 with a crazy amount of persistent AI entities (like robot packs that roam the map), anything that has to run on a Jaguar CPU and HDD will look absolutely outdated.

MS focus on talking about framerates pretty much confirms to me that their approach will be designing games for the baseline and then just using the extra GPU and CPU to crank out more frames.
Yeah at least for first few years they seem to be wanting to go with scaling model because they don’t want to loose game pass subs and start from zero on Scarlett . Hopefully they will also make our jaws drop soon. A healthy competition is needed to push graphics higher and higher
 

-Le Monde-

Avenger
Dec 8, 2017
2,295
Hmm, with a 50% increase that would be:

CPU:
PlayStation 4: 1.6GHz to 2.4GHz
Xbox One: 1.75GHz to 2.625GHz

PlayStation 4 Pro: 2.13GHz to 3.195GHz
Xbox One X: 2.3GHz to 3.45GHz
Hope its Pro/1X.
When Guerrilla Games show off HZD2 with a crazy amount of persistent AI entities (like robot packs that roam the map), anything that has to run on a Jaguar CPU and HDD will look absolutely outdated.

MS focus on talking about framerates pretty much confirms to me that their approach will be designing games for the baseline and then just using the extra GPU and CPU to crank out more frames.
Horizon is a stunning game, both graphically, and gameplay wise.
I’m not ready for Horizon 2. :0
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,745
Barcelona Spain
There are many different types of NAND (and NOR, eg. SLC, TLC, QLC, MLC etc) with different price points based on requirements and use case, so I don't think it's possible to compare directly. For instance, for best performance, Sony should choose SLC but that is also the most expensive. I assume there are speed differences and there are certainly price differences for the controller used (Phison, Samsung, etc). NVMe drives typically need a passive heatsink (or even active cooling in some cases) due to the heat generated, presumably because they are clocked much higher than many SATA SSDs.
So yeah, the actual cost of producing a low-end NVMe SSD might be comparable to a SATA SSD in some cases when both are using the same NAND type.
In the patent the controller is custom, this is a Sony controller.
 

Mitchman1411

Member
Jul 28, 2018
425
Oslo, Norway
It must be said, since software, not hardware, is a traditional Microsoft expertise, it's very possible that they could ultimately deliver more advanced DirecX development software in the end allowing games to run better on Scarlett even if the hardware is less capable.
People DO understand that Microsoft has some of the smartest graphics programmers IN THE WORLD. We CREATED DirectX, the standard API that everyone programs against. So while people laude Sony for their HW skills, do you really think we don't know how to build a system optimized for maximizing graphics for programmers? Seriously? There is no way we're giving up a 30%+ advantage to Sony. And ANYONE who has seen both systems running could say there are great looking games on both systems. If there was really huge performance difference, it would be obvious.

Blast from the past, eh? :)
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,294
People DO understand that Microsoft has some of the smartest graphics programmers IN THE WORLD. We CREATED DirectX, the standard API that everyone programs against. So while people laude Sony for their HW skills, do you really think we don't know how to build a system optimized for maximizing graphics for programmers? Seriously? There is no way we're giving up a 30%+ advantage to Sony. And ANYONE who has seen both systems running could say there are great looking games on both systems. If there was really huge performance difference, it would be obvious.

Blast from the past, eh? :)
I was just thinking it certainly didn't make up any difference this gen. Both have great development tools.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,087
Somewhere South
It must be said, since software, not hardware, is a traditional Microsoft expertise, it's very possible that they could ultimately deliver more advanced DirecX development software in the end allowing games to run better on Scarlett even if the hardware is less capable.

I don't know this to be the case, but the possibility can't be discounted.
It wasn't the case with PS4/Xbox One and I don't expect it to be the case with next-gen. Sony is known to have industry leading toolkit for game development, especially in the area of perf optimization, tracing and diagnostics.