Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - nm

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Feb 10, 2018
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I'm leaning to lockhart not being a reality but It makes a lot of sense to me to have a cheaper 1080p console if the PS5 + scarlett are aiming for 4k.

There are so many people very happy with 1080p, people still play on there 360s, wiis and ps3's and even switches for crying out loud.
 

SeanMN

Member
Oct 28, 2017
929
2020 Q3 will see the launch of one new Xbox hardware platform - Xbox Scarlett (Anaconda). They're focusing on just the one platform for launch. As far as we know, devs are currently only developing for one Xbox platform. At and near launch at least, games will not be affected by Lockhart.

Edit (Dec 4, 2019): Apparently Lockhart is definitely still alive and may launch in 2020. Striking out parts no longer relevant.

The Xbox team is focused on compatibility. MS/Xbox won't launch Lockhart (or a similar product) unless it has 100% compatibility. I think their commitement to compatibility is greater than their desire to hit a low price point on a physical console. If Lockhart is a thing that will eventually exist, it's their (Xbox/MS) problem to deal with first and foremost. All of Xbox's BC efforts were handled primarily internally, the only thing publishers had to do was grant permission. If they introduce a low spec'd console partway through the generation,it'll require them to have a plan to ensure compatibility without requiring devs of prior games to go and introduce patches.

At this point in the game I don't think we need to be concerned with what affect Lockhart (as we know it) could have on the generation, because if it's not there at launch, I think chances are extremely low it will be introduced later on.

Scarlett - Lockhart also doesn't seem to even be necessary given recent discussions of cross gen games and being able to stream games via xCloud. I'd almost find it more likely if Xbox put out a new $200-300 console in the Xbox One family that borrows some features from Scarlett/Anaconda to: play current gen games great (at 1X level or better), provide improvements to cross gen games over current XB1 SKUs (loading, framerate), and built for access to xCloud for full next gen games.


lockhart being back will suck so much. i am really not confident about it not affecting the overall baseline look of games.
Lockhart reportedly not being dead does not mean Lockhart is back.
just be glad they didnt report you. what bugs me the most is that you cant even joke about this stuff anymore. you get banned for trolling for making jokes which is odd because if you cant joke about video games on a video game forum than what the hell is the point.
It's possible to make jokes and have fun without delving into negativity or toxicity which would lead to a ban or warning.
 
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BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
3,160
A theoretical 4TF, but otherwise similar spec, Lockhart APU would have to be a unique and separate SoC right? i.e binning the Anaconda chip would be a gross waste and costly and wouldn't allow a say $299 SKU without major loss?

Just trying to think how they could go about doing this....
 

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,238
At this point it seems pretty obvious to me that Lockhart is a 1080p console for their Xcloud data centers, but they might be struggling to find a good PR strategy for a consumer version of Lockhart ("Next-gen with 4TF??"), that's probably why we haven't heard any concrete statements.

Makes just too much sense imo. Xcloud is focused on 1080p streaming, using Xbox One S consoles. And it seems they think people who want to experience 4K will rather buy a real console:


"We’re developing Project xCloud not as a replacement for game consoles, but as a way to provide the same choice and versatility that lovers of music and video enjoy today," says Choudhry. "We love what’s possible when a console is connected to a 4K TV with full HDR support and surround sound – that remains a fantastic way to experience console gaming."
Also, power consumption is a big thing for data centers. Just look at this article comparing Xbox One S and X:


Xbox One S: 107W under load

Xbon One X: 172W under load

That's a lot, and if Lockhart has a similar advantage vs Anaconda, maybe even more, because it was built up from the ground for that purpose, this is going to be huge. Putting Anaconda in their data centers when Xcloud is limited to / or mostly used for 1080p, would be a gigantic waste, especially at the scale they are considering.
 

AegonSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,198


I was looking at this devkit trying to figure out where the APU heatsink would go and the v shape doesnt make much sense. that means that the heatsink would be on one side. so whats on the other side? is it possible they might be using a discrete GPU and CPU on either side?

also the vents in the middle, wouldnt they be flowing hot air back into the vents on the other side of the V?

also, why come up with such an elaborate design just for a devkit? just make a big box like the pro devkit next to it. i suspect the final version will be smaller but i still dont know which side will have the APU.
 

Deleted member 5764

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Oct 25, 2017
6,574
Man, we're back on the Lockhart train huh?

I'll stick with my initial gut feeling for that project then. If it does exist, I trust that Microsoft has enough of a plan that it won't be a huge pain for developers. I can't imagine them dumping a substantially weaker box in the lap of AAA third party developers and expecting them to just "make it work". Especially if said box is supposedly weaker than their competition's only offering.
 
Nov 11, 2017
1,701
Same reason last time when digital foundry takes to devs and said the devs hated it and ms scrapped it . The will make games for Lockhart and res it up for anaconda as scaling up is much easier than scaling down.
Just like PC gaming games are made at the highest graphical settings and scaled down Lockhart would be the same concept. It'll be easier in theory to pro-ps4 or xbox one x to xbox one. They'd in theory have the same specs outside of the GPU and probably disc drive
 

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,872
Just like PC gaming games are made at the highest graphical settings and scaled down Lockhart would be the same concept. It'll be easier in theory to pro-ps4 or xbox one x to xbox one. They'd in theory have the same specs outside of the GPU and probably disc drive
Gpu and a bit of less ram would not save them 200$ though. So more sacrifices has to be there in order to make that happen.
Lockhart might be their server blades and not consumer side
 

SeanMN

Member
Oct 28, 2017
929


I was looking at this devkit trying to figure out where the APU heatsink would go and the v shape doesnt make much sense. that means that the heatsink would be on one side. so whats on the other side? is it possible they might be using a discrete GPU and CPU on either side?

also the vents in the middle, wouldnt they be flowing hot air back into the vents on the other side of the V?

also, why come up with such an elaborate design just for a devkit? just make a big box like the pro devkit next to it. i suspect the final version will be smaller but i still dont know which side will have the APU.
Have we had any indication that an SOC is being used yet in these devkits? I'd still expect there to be PC components in there, at least until early next year.
 
Feb 10, 2018
15,973


I was looking at this devkit trying to figure out where the APU heatsink would go and the v shape doesnt make much sense. that means that the heatsink would be on one side. so whats on the other side? is it possible they might be using a discrete GPU and CPU on either side?

also the vents in the middle, wouldnt they be flowing hot air back into the vents on the other side of the V?

also, why come up with such an elaborate design just for a devkit? just make a big box like the pro devkit next to it. i suspect the final version will be smaller but i still dont know which side will have the APU.
Didn't an insider confirm the dev kits were made this way so they could be stacked?
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,574
At this point it seems pretty obvious to me that Lockhart is a 1080p console for their Xcloud data centers, but they might be struggling to find a good PR strategy for a consumer version of Lockhart ("Next-gen with 4TF??"), that's probably why we haven't heard any concrete statements.

Makes just too much sense imo. Xcloud is focused on 1080p streaming, using Xbox One S consoles. And it seems they think people who want to experience 4K will rather buy a real console:




Also, power consumption is a big thing for data centers. Just look at this article comparing Xbox One S and X:


Xbox One S: 107W under load

Xbon One X: 172W under load

That's a lot, and if Lockhart has a similar advantage vs Anaconda, maybe even more, because it was built up from the ground for that purpose, this is going to be huge. Putting Anaconda in their data centers when Xcloud is limited to / or mostly used for 1080p, would be a gigantic waste, especially at the scale they are considering.
This is an insanely good take and holy hell, it makes a ton of sense! I don't know why I didn't realize that Microsoft hasn't promised 4K streaming via XCloud.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
747
Seattle
If the only difference is a smaller GPU there will not be enough of a difference in manufacturing cost (thus price) for Lockhart to have a meaningful market position to occupy in the first place.
SSD and optical drive are other places to cut corners. The former could definitely impact games, but the latter wouldn’t. There are also artificial ways to segment the market. The less expensive SKU could be relatively ugly and loud, so anyone who can afford the higher end SKU does so to get the quiet, attractive case. The price differential brings the average selling price up in a hypothetical situation like this where the BOM isn‘t significantly different. I’m not going to claim this is a likely approach - just one possibility among many.
 
Feb 10, 2018
15,973
If the only difference is a smaller GPU there will not be enough of a difference in manufacturing cost (thus price) for Lockhart to have a meaningful market position to occupy in the first place.
What I don't get is why are people questioning the ability for lockhart to be quite a bit cheaper but they don't object at a $399 8tflop machine?

If lockhart was 6tflops I don't see why it could not be $349, especially if they cut out the disc drive.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,622
Just like PC gaming games are made at the highest graphical settings and scaled down Lockhart would be the same concept. It'll be easier in theory to pro-ps4 or xbox one x to xbox one. They'd in theory have the same specs outside of the GPU and probably disc drive
Since when games are are made for the highest graphical settings on PC ?
I would like you to name a few .
 

sncvsrtoip

Member
Apr 18, 2019
1,821


I was looking at this devkit trying to figure out where the APU heatsink would go and the v shape doesnt make much sense. that means that the heatsink would be on one side. so whats on the other side? is it possible they might be using a discrete GPU and CPU on either side?

also the vents in the middle, wouldnt they be flowing hot air back into the vents on the other side of the V?

also, why come up with such an elaborate design just for a devkit? just make a big box like the pro devkit next to it. i suspect the final version will be smaller but i still dont know which side will have the APU.
Answer is simple - on both sides https://pastebin.com/YHRVUqQB 2x36cu 14.2tf :-)
 

AegonSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,198
Have we had any indication that an SOC is being used yet in these devkits? I'd still expect there to be PC components in there, at least until early next year.
gonzalo got a qualifying sample in april. people said that means its close to production. cerny said the devkits went out in april. its possible they produced a few hundred of those and stuck them in this devkit.

Answer is simple - on both sides https://pastebin.com/YHRVUqQB 2x36cu 14.2tf :-)
project epsilon redeemed.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,622
What I don't get is why are people questioning the ability for lockhart to be quite a bit cheaper but they don't object at a $399 8tflop machine?

If lockhart was 6tflops I don't see why it could not be $349, especially if they cut out the disc drive.
At $350 who is going to buy it ?
If it comes out a year later after launch for eg that is when we start seeing some price cuts or after cheaper prices on BF and xmas month .
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,602
CheapernGPU, cheaper SSD,no disc drive save ~150 or more
I think you over estimate the SSD and disc costs.

a UHD drive omission would be death for it. It needs to play retail games. And a UHD drive was estimated to cost Xbox $30 per unit in 2016, its got to be even lower since then. Let’s say $25

new SSDs at 1TB are sold at $100-$130, but the company that makes them likely sells them at 2x or 3x cost for profit since they don’t make any software sales profit. So a 1TB is probably around $40-$50 for these accessory companies, and Xbox will get a huge discount since they can order 50M+ then anyone else. I’d argue $40 for a 1TB SSD, in line with 500Gb HDD price in 2013. so maybe a 500GB SSD is what, $10 cheaper max than 1TB?

so cutting those you save $50ish. GPU? Idk. Maybe they can scale a $100-$120 SOC down to $80ish but I can’t see it being too much. Probably all in all a $100 savings on BOM and then you still need to sell it cheap, like $299 or $349, or else it defeats the entire point of handicapping Scarlett all gen if it’s $400-$500 or $400-$600 to get into next gen Xbox imo
 

JaggedSac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,790
Burbs of Atlanta
The Xbox team is focused on compatibility. MS/Xbox won't launch Lockhart (or a similar product) unless it has 100% compatibility. I think their commitement to compatibility is greater than their desire to hit a low price point on a physical console. If Lockhart is a thing that will eventually exist, it's their (Xbox/MS) problem to deal with first and foremost. All of Xbox's BC efforts were handled primarily internally, the only thing publishers had to do was grant permission. If they introduce a low spec'd console partway through the generation,it'll require them to have a plan to ensure compatibility without requiring devs of prior games to go and introduce patches.
This will not happen if it is a lower specced device.
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,090
Europe
At this point it seems pretty obvious to me that Lockhart is a 1080p console for their Xcloud data centers, but they might be struggling to find a good PR strategy for a consumer version of Lockhart ("Next-gen with 4TF??"), that's probably why we haven't heard any concrete statements.

Makes just too much sense imo. Xcloud is focused on 1080p streaming, using Xbox One S consoles. And it seems they think people who want to experience 4K will rather buy a real console:




Also, power consumption is a big thing for data centers. Just look at this article comparing Xbox One S and X:


Xbox One S: 107W under load

Xbon One X: 172W under load

That's a lot, and if Lockhart has a similar advantage vs Anaconda, maybe even more, because it was built up from the ground for that purpose, this is going to be huge. Putting Anaconda in their data centers when Xcloud is limited to / or mostly used for 1080p, would be a gigantic waste, especially at the scale they are considering.
This makes a lot of sense,yeah.
over one million views in this thread 😱
The thirst is real!
 

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
3,160
Have we had any indication that an SOC is being used yet in these devkits? I'd still expect there to be PC components in there, at least until early next year.
No, and I doubt we'll get confirmation unless someone takes the lid off and takes pics!

Given the kit looks like a more final kit with a screen rather than a PC case and it is said to have gone out in large numbers to third-parties, I'll be surprised if it wasn't SoC-based.
 
Feb 26, 2018
2,524
I'm so tired of Lockhart already. We got same people confirming it, than canceling it, than confirming it again. I'm just gonna wait until official statements regarding Lockhart
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,278
United Kingdom
SSD and optical drive are other places to cut corners. The former could definitely impact games, but the latter wouldn’t. There are also artificial ways to segment the market. The less expensive SKU could be relatively ugly and loud, so anyone who can afford the higher end SKU does so to get the quiet, attractive case. The price differential brings the average selling price up in a hypothetical situation like this where the BOM isn‘t significantly different. I’m not going to claim this is a likely approach - just one possibility among many.


The PS4's Bluray drive cost $28. I can see them skimping on NAND chips but that can also have the adverse effect of entirely devaluing the product altogether. Gamers are already arguing 1TB (expected) isn't enough for next-gen, so any less for Lockheart would make it pretty undesireable. At the same time, if MS's SSD storage solution is proprietary like Sony's they may also not support external USB storage expansion, making a Lockhart with a small internal drive almost worthless.

What I don't get is why are people questioning the ability for lockhart to be quite a bit cheaper but they don't object at a $399 8tflop machine?
4TF =/= 8TF.

DF are the ones who first put out there the 4TF Lockheart rumour. So if you wanna get upset with anyone, be upset with them.
 

Rogue Kiwi

Member
May 5, 2019
282
Will 1TB be enough for next gen consoles? Even if it's SSD? A lot of AAA games are pushing the 120GB mark, only being able to store 5-6 games seems ludicrous, and having to constantly juggle games is annoying even now. Will they allow mechanical external drives if games are made to take advantage of SSDs? Will there be a write speed check like there was a USB 3.0 check this generation?

I don't know what the solution is but I know I'm personally sick of storage management.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,622
Will 1TB be enough for next gen consoles? Even if it's SSD? A lot of AAA games are pushing the 120GB mark, only being able to store 5-6 games seems ludicrous, and having to constantly juggle games is annoying even now. Will they allow mechanical external drives if games are made to take advantage of SSDs? Will there be a write speed check like there was a USB 3.0 check this generation?

I don't know what the solution is but I know I'm personally sick of storage management.
For some hardcore gamers no but for the average user yes 1TB should be enough .
 

minato

Member
Oct 27, 2017
225
Not really next gen related but I though this video from Linus was interesting on possible thermals
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
985
I was looking at this devkit trying to figure out where the APU heatsink would go and the v shape doesnt make much sense. that means that the heatsink would be on one side. so whats on the other side? is it possible they might be using a discrete GPU and CPU on either side?
Each side has a heatsink connected to a mid plate. Just use longer heatpipes and shorter fin stacks.



The issue I have with that is where do the fans go? If they're horizontal, that would suggest old school server coolers ie slabs of copper with really small fins. Or even a big VC in the middle with heatpipes taking heat away to each side where they're cooled by vertical 80-92mm fans. That'll get loud though.
 
Feb 10, 2018
15,973


The PS4's Bluray drive cost $28. I can see them skimping on NAND chips but that can also have the adverse effect of entirely devaluing the product altogether. Gamers are already arguing 1TB (expected) isn't enough for next-gen, so any less for Lockheart would make it pretty undesireable. At the same time, if MS's SSD storage solution is proprietary like Sony's they may also not support external USB storage expansion, making a Lockhart with a small internal drive almost worthless.



4TF =/= 8TF.

DF are the ones who first put out there the 4TF Lockheart rumour. So if you wanna get upset with anyone, be upset with them.
No 4tflop came from a reddit rumour, and if it were 4tf it would be even more cheaper.

It's odd that u perceive me pointing out a double standard as being "upset"
 
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