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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT7| - nm

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,697
There are reasons why partners responded so poorly to a two SKU strategy.
They may have their reasons, but it does not change the fact that they have been working in this environment half this generation, and since before the Switch launched.

If both are made, they will work on something that works on both versions of the console, and it will not be the back breaking work that people here make it out to be.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,674
They may have their reasons, but it does not change the fact that they have been working in this environment half this generation, and since before the Switch launched.

If both are made, they will work on something that works on both versions of the console, and it will not be the back breaking work that people here make it out to be.
And it won’t be as easy and simple as you’re suggesting either. Development for a single platform can be taxing as is. If you add another, it won’t be easier regardless of what they are doing.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,697
And it won’t be as easy and simple as you’re suggesting either. Development for a single platform can be taxing as is. If you add another, it won’t be easier regardless of what they are doing.
They are making a game to work on two different resolutions. Mark Cerny stated that Days Gone was ported over by a single developer. Microsoft ported an entire engine in two days. People are talking as if they are going to be working on two versions side by side..........they are not doing that on a single platform.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,733
Barcelona Spain
They are making a game to work on two different resolutions. Mark Cerny stated that Days Gone was ported over by a single developer. Microsoft ported an entire engine in two days. People are talking as if they are going to be working on two versions side by side..........they are not doing that on a single platform.
They are scaling up the game and it means PS4 Pro or Xbox One X could do better if the game were created without base version in mind.

This is the reason third party told they scale up from Lockhart.

Edit: The problem is not scaling up, it is the best version does not look as good as if it was the base version.
 

Manixramz

Member
Apr 4, 2018
270
They are making a game to work on two different resolutions. Mark Cerny stated that Days Gone was ported over by a single developer. Microsoft ported an entire engine in two days. People are talking as if they are going to be working on two versions side by side..........they are not doing that on a single platform.
It is not ported, ported is not the right word.

Supporting xbox s and x is different than support 2 sku at launch. Leave alone one is lower spec because they want to get edge against competitor.

Xbox s released and x came later as upgraded console.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,543
Yep even if it easy it's still more work for devs .
It also more money for pubs since they still have to Q&A etc etc two version .
Exactly. If it's easy work, then deal with it after having completed the game for the 2 main SKUs, and if you have to remove features to get it running on other platforms afterwards (a.k.a. Switch) then deal with it later, don't even think about the other SKU during development. That's what I meant before that it should be an after thought.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,697
They are scaling up the game and it means PS4 Pro or Xbox One X could do better if the game were created without base version in mind.

This is the reason third party told they scale up from Lockhart.

Edit: The problem is not scaling up, it is the best version does not look as good as if it was the base version.
Microsoft has been scaling down. Working on XB1X then scaling down to the S and base console with no issues, an example being Forza Horizon 4.

It is not ported, ported is not the right word.

Supporting xbox s and x is different than support 2 sku at launch. Leave alone one is lower spec because they want to get edge against competitor.

Xbox s released and x came later as upgraded console.
What is different? I really want to understand. Today's engines are scalable, you make a game either for the top end or the lower end and scale accordingly. You have the exact same thing that developers have been dealing with since the PS4 Pro launch, Xbox One X launch........and it is basically how games work on both modes for the Switch.

There is absolutely nothing different apart from semantics.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,325
Exactly. If it's easy work, then deal with it after having completed the game for the 2 main SKUs, and if you have to remove features to get it running on other platforms afterwards (a.k.a. Switch) then deal with it later, don't even think about the other SKU during development. That's what I meant before that it should be an after thought.
I mean this upcoming gen going to harder for devs for the first few years than ever before.
Just think about it they now have to make 7 different versions of there games if you are 3rd party .( 8 with switch)
When last gen it was 5 at the start and it's not like games getting easier to make and upcoming next gen going introduce tech for them to update there engines.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,733
Barcelona Spain
Microsoft has been scaling down. Working on XB1X then scaling down to the S and base console with no issues, an example being Forza Horizon 4.


What is different? I really want to understand. Today's engines are scalable, you make a game either for the top end or the lower end and scale accordingly. You have the exact same thing that developers have been dealing with since the PS4 Pro launch, Xbox One X launch........and it is basically how games work on both modes for the Switch.

There is absolutely nothing different apart from semantics.
It is good if Microsoft scale down but if third party scale up and the multiplatform game looks less good than the competition. This is a problem.

The decision to stop lockhart was made after third party feedback.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,697
It is good if Microsoft scale down but if third party scale up and the multiplatform game looks less good than the competition. This is a problem.

The decision to stop lockhart was made after third party feedback.
Then make a game for the top end and then scale down. What is the issue?

This is the proverbial 'making a mountain out of a mole hill.' The first thing they ought to do is take several days porting the engine, then go about their way making the game. For a thread centered around the technical aspects of games, consoles and their development, this is something that selective amnesia applies to far to regularly.

If Lockhart ever launches, it will be supported because development houses are businesses first and foremost.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,733
Barcelona Spain
Then make a game for the top end and then scale down. What is the issue?

This is the proverbial 'making a mountain out of a mole hill.' The first thing they ought to do is take several days porting the engine, then go about their way making the game. For a thread centered around the technical aspects of games, consoles and their development, this is something that selective amnesia applies to far to regularly.

If Lockhart ever launches, it will be supported because development houses are businesses first and foremost.
Because it is more difficult and take more time. If it was easy the third party will do this. This is easy as an armchair developer if third party said it is a problem, it is a real one. They don't have the time to scale down and they have more versions to do than Microsoft with FH4. During crossgen, they will have to scale up from base Xbox One and base PS4 to PS5 and Xbox Scarlett.

The good things with midgen is scaling up like nearly all devs were doing even first party Sony dev for example. You are sure the base version works great and you only improve resolution/framerate on the midgen version. This is the easiest things to do.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,697
Because it is more difficult and take more time. If it was easy the third party will do this. This is easy as an armchair developer if third party said it is a problem, it is a real one. They don't have the time to scale down and they have more versions to do than Microsoft with FH4. During crossgen, they will have to scale up from base Xbox One and base PS4 to PS5 and Xbox Scarlett.

The good things with midgen is scale up like nearly all devs were doing even first party Sony dev for example.
What on earth are you talking about?

If these consoles are about the same in power, then what is stopping them from making a game for Anaconda (which is similar to PS5) and then toggling settings to meet Lockhart requirements?

It is an engine that they are porting, and from that engine, it becomes a rather simplistic problem of balancing an arithmetic equation where most GPU compute is resolution based. Do people honestly think that these guys will spend three or more years making a game and not go the distance in what has been shown to not be a huge process.

Come on.
 

Thera

Member
Feb 28, 2019
1,918
And rumor the second Insomniac team work on a Ratchet and Clank. It was a Ps4 game but they decided to transfer it to PS5. We can have Ratchet and Clank gameplay. Horizon 2 gameplay trailer, Spiderman 2 teaser, maybe Bluepoint game (Demon's Soul's remake?) and the Housemarque AAA game (Shu visited them when he was president of SCEWWS before letting the place to Hermen Hulst), maybe one of the Supermassive games(they said they work on PS exclusive)

Other possibilites but less plausible maybe a Studio Wushu exclusive and maybe Ready At Dawn game.

If all of this is true the first two years of PS5 exclusives will be much better than PS4.
I have hope for a Nier game too.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,733
Barcelona Spain
What on earth are you talking about?

If these consoles are about the same in power, then what is stopping them from making a game for Anaconda (which is similar to PS5) and then toggling settings to meet Lockhart requirements?

It is an engine that they are porting, and from that engine, it becomes a rather simplistic problem of balancing an arithmetic equation where most GPU compute is resolution based. Do people honestly think that these guys will spend three or more years making a game and not go the distance in what has been shown to not be a huge process.

Come on.
Again you are not working on the devkit, third party devs working with devkits said it is a bad idea. And PS5 is another version than Xbox. This is a different API and a different branch than the Xbox code which has probably in common with PC DX 12 code.


This is clear. This is a pain in the ass and it hold back next generation games. We can't been more precise. And worse it could have hurt Xbox Scarlet games compared to PS5 game. How to create inferior multiplatform with comparable hardware? Lockhart...


First, developers were having a harder than expected time creating next-generation games that spanned across two systems with various specs. As you might expect, developers were putting a focus on making games that would run well on the lower-end device first and then scaling them up to the higher-speced, Anaconda.

Keep in mind, it’s easier to scale up than it is to scale down. Because of this, next-gen Xbox games would be at performance and visual disadvantage which is not what Microsoft would like to see as it starts to go head-to-head with the next generation PlayStation.
 
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Ōkami Haundo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,569
PA - US
Gemüsepizza really opened my eyes yesterday as it pertains to Lockhart. It totally makes sense that Microsoft might have considered a version of Scarlett with a scaled-back GPU for XCloud servers. Especially if they don't plan to bring 4K game streaming to XCloud. Whether or not they follow through on that idea is another story.

What do you folks think? XCloud is obviously a large part of Microsoft's next-gen strategy. So how do you think they'll handle the transition to new hardware?
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,697
Again you are not working on the devkit, third party devs working with devkits said it is a bad idea.


This is clear. This is a pain in the ass and it hold back next generation games. We can't been more precise.

Mark Cerny and the guys from Xbox said it is an easy process. Or are they fools without an inkling of an idea of what they are talking about?

You people really pick and choose what you like based on what your preferences are. They have been working like this half this generation, and nothing has held back anything.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,733
Barcelona Spain
Mark Cerny and the guys from Xbox said it is an easy process. Or are they fools without an inkling of an idea of what they are talking about?

You people really pick and choose what you like based on what your preferences are. They have been working like this half this generation, and nothing has held back anything.
Mark Cerny never talk about scaling down, he speaks about scaling up. Same things not all game are scaling down on Xbox One X. Out of playground games, we don't have other example.

Scaling up is much easier than scaling down.
 

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,238
Mark Cerny and the guys from Xbox said it is an easy process. Or are they fools without an inkling of an idea of what they are talking about?

You people really pick and choose what you like based on what your preferences are. They have been working like this half this generation, and nothing has held back anything.
Wait, when did Mark Cerny say that scaling down from PS4 Pro to the PS4 is an easy process?

Or Microsoft?
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,069
Msk / SPb, Russia
It is an engine that they are porting
It is actually a game which they are porting and it takes quite a bit more time and money to make sure that such port meets all the requirements, especially since you will need to go and remake the content for that more often than not, and this is very expensive. Hence why it's a bad idea to have two versions of the same console on the market.
 

Ozorov

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,202
Very curious how cross-gen games will play out. Will it be a difference of I buy a PS4 game or a PS5 game and play it on PS5? Or will just the PS4 game come with a PS5 patch?
 

Manixramz

Member
Apr 4, 2018
270
Microsoft has been scaling down. Working on XB1X then scaling down to the S and base console with no issues, an example being Forza Horizon 4.


What is different? I really want to understand. Today's engines are scalable, you make a game either for the top end or the lower end and scale accordingly. You have the exact same thing that developers have been dealing with since the PS4 Pro launch, Xbox One X launch........and it is basically how games work on both modes for the Switch.

There is absolutely nothing different apart from semantics.
Then make a game for the top end and then scale down. What is the issue?

This is the proverbial 'making a mountain out of a mole hill.' The first thing they ought to do is take several days porting the engine, then go about their way making the game. For a thread centered around the technical aspects of games, consoles and their development, this is something that selective amnesia applies to far to regularly.

If Lockhart ever launches, it will be supported because development houses are businesses first and foremost.
Buddy u missing one important point, budget! Time!

Of course Ms will do what ever they want with forza, of course Sony can cook last of us and GOT for years until they deliver the best but Battlefield 5 or athem or ubisoft games can't afford that.

The way you reply, u not going to see this in development view.

Again, ps4 pro and xbox 1 x is upgrade.
I. Can't believe how some can't differentiate scaling up and downgrading.
How in earth this could be same. They must build around this to work on both version, that is why devs not happy about 2 sku idea.
Switch is what it is from release and it is supported by 3rd party that loves Nintendo or the one Nintendo push to make.
Ms had a choice to take feedback from developers and they change it. If they bring back this idea and force 3rd party to do it then 3rd party simply will build game around lower spec and scale to high end.
Why they want to make their life miserable by going high to low?
Why do u think most 3rd party skip switch?
 

Manixramz

Member
Apr 4, 2018
270
Mark Cerny and the guys from Xbox said it is an easy process. Or are they fools without an inkling of an idea of what they are talking about?

You people really pick and choose what you like based on what your preferences are. They have been working like this half this generation, and nothing has held back anything.
Dude, it really puzzle me how u would not understand up scaling and downscaling after some many explanation from others. You are overtaking Mr West world
 

severianb

Member
Nov 9, 2017
773
That thing is probably way to expensive. They develope and sell a cheaper version of it.
at least we can be assured that if this is the camera that MS are using then they wont be bundled this time.
$399 USD for the development kit.
The Kinect v2 development kit was also $399.

The consumer version would be $199 or less.

Damn this would be great for vr
Most people don't know the Kinect v2 had a 120Hz mode that also would have (and was probably made for) been perfect for VR.

It's frustrating as a enthusiast of new tech and Xbox to see Microsoft sitting on this new Kinect and WMR headsets and not making them available to everyone.... or doing *anything* with them in the consumer space.
 

Berserker976

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
I think it's just translation. He just means the storage medium I think. But yes, he hones in on that as a key change for next-gen.

I think what was also interesting in this interview is what seems to be - for the first time from a senior Sony exec perhaps - a full-throated acknowledgment that the silo-ed networks of before are not viable anymore.



Quite a turnaround from even his own comments not too long ago. With a better translation, at least, that would probably be worth its own thread given the shift it is from previous.
Damn, this actually seems pretty noteworthy. It's nice to see a Sony higher-up acknowledge this. Maybe Cross platform play will actually become standard next gen.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,075
Somewhere South
Another RDR2 video here. A "fairer" comparison, this time.

Running on a 530, a .65TF (base, it turbos a bit above that) GCN3 card. So, about half a Xbox One, using tech that is two GCN gens ahead. Screen res is 720p, internal scaling is 1/2, so it's doing less than half the resolution the Xbox One is doing. Also, everything turned to low or disabled, again, what should mitigate for some of the cut in memory and bandwidth. And yet it can't get anywhere near a consistent 30FPS.

And if you honestly think Lockhart would be just half GPU, without touching memory size and bandwidth, you're delusional.

That's not to say downporting isn't possible. It is very possible, it's just not as trivial as "half the res, turn off some stuff" as some of you think and/or imply.
 
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gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,021
Gemüsepizza really opened my eyes yesterday as it pertains to Lockhart. It totally makes sense that Microsoft might have considered a version of Scarlett with a scaled-back GPU for XCloud servers. Especially if they don't plan to bring 4K game streaming to XCloud. Whether or not they follow through on that idea is another story.

What do you folks think? XCloud is obviously a large part of Microsoft's next-gen strategy. So how do you think they'll handle the transition to new hardware?
I think that theory makes a lot of sense. The economics of the cloud are entirely about power consumption per user.

It makes sense to have options to stream games where possible at a lower power consumption level (it's also a reason I don't think the Xbox One S will be replaced by Scarlet hardware for Xbox One streaming, but supplemented by it - unless and until scarlet hardware consumes less power streaming xb1 games than the current xb1-s based hw). It would be hard to implement a lower-power-consuming sku at lower resolutions 'transparently', without giving developers some control over how the game is experienced on that lower hardware, and thus exposing it as another consumer sku explicitly makes some sense.

So I think the cloud-motivation argument makes sense from a business perspective, yes. Whether it makes sense or is desirable from a development or 'progress' perspective or whatever is, of course, another matter. But yeah, I think it makes good sense of why MS would want to do this, or even persist with the idea in the face of resistance.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,325
Because it is more difficult and take more time. If it was easy the third party will do this. This is easy as an armchair developer if third party said it is a problem, it is a real one. They don't have the time to scale down and they have more versions to do than Microsoft with FH4. During crossgen, they will have to scale up from base Xbox One and base PS4 to PS5 and Xbox Scarlett.

The good things with midgen is scaling up like nearly all devs were doing even first party Sony dev for example. You are sure the base version works great and you only improve resolution/framerate on the midgen version. This is the easiest things to do.

People not looking at 3rd party devs have to make games for 7 systems already at the start of next gen .
It going to be tax on them no matter how easy it suppose to be .
This not counting everything else.
I can see them wanting this gen to die ASAP lol.
 

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,238
Also please bear in mind that this isn't shitting on Microsoft, it's why we think a Lockhart that comes later than the Scarlett is a bad idea.

Which is, based on a rumor.
 

Tonky

Member
Aug 26, 2019
3,053
What if the economy tanks and a $199 Lockhart is introduced to the market? What if it’s seen as a savior to the non-elitist console gamer that can’t afford a $799 PS5?
 

Nobunny

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
836
Mark Cerny and the guys from Xbox said it is an easy process. Or are they fools without an inkling of an idea of what they are talking about?

You people really pick and choose what you like based on what your preferences are. They have been working like this half this generation, and nothing has held back anything.
Those quotes might be oversimplifications, not applicable in all cases, or true but specific to the circumstances of the mid-generation consoles.

In the past when we've been told something is "free" or "easy" for developers, we usually find out later it's a lot more work and a lot more complicated than quotes made it seem initially.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,697
Wait, when did Mark Cerny say that scaling down from PS4 Pro to the PS4 is an easy process?

Or Microsoft?
Did you read what I stated?
Mark Cerny never talk about scaling down, he speaks about scaling up. Same things not all game are scaling down on Xbox One X. Out of playground games, we don't have other example.

Scaling up is much easier than scaling down.
By the way, was Dr Keo banned? He debunked this theory multiple times showed how games scale mainly on resolution. He was so good at it that there was literally nobody that could eventually debunk what he stated given the data that he had presented. I have quoted his posts so many times in different versions of this thread that I am no longer bothered to do so.
Make a game at the top end, toggle resolution down.......if the lower end console has appropriate headroom, it will handle non res tasks well enough. If it is tanking, you could reduce things like RT settings, or resolution even further.

They have been messing with this this very generation on things like performance modes and what not even when you consider that they have had base consoles to work with.
Those quotes might be oversimplifications, not applicable in all cases, or true but specific to the circumstances of the mid-generation consoles.

In the past when we've been told something is "free" or "easy" for developers, we usually find out later it's a lot more work and a lot more complicated than quotes made it seem initially.
So a single developer porting a game is going to break a budget? Or porting an engine in 2 days? Tools are also getting better, and this is going to be another generation where you are dealing with AMD tech. It is an evolution rather than the huge revolution we have been seeing in past generations.


It is actually a game which they are porting and it takes quite a bit more time and money to make sure that such port meets all the requirements, especially since you will need to go and remake the content for that more often than not, and this is very expensive. Hence why it's a bad idea to have two versions of the same console on the market.
So bad that Sony and Microsoft had mid gen refreshes? Come on man. We have a game that is running 1080p, 60fps, and 4k,30fps in addition to the base model, and all it took was two years. You create a game, the engine scales....you would then debug just as any other software. The tools are getting better too.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,733
Barcelona Spain
Did you read what I stated?
By the way, was Dr Keo banned? He debunked this theory multiple times showed how games scale mainly on resolution. He was so good at it that there was literally nobody that could eventually debunk what he stated given the data that he had presented. I have quoted his posts so many times in different versions of this thread that I am no longer bothered to do so.
Make a game at the top end, toggle resolution down.......if the lower end console has appropriate headroom, it will handle non res tasks well enough. If it is tanking, you could reduce things like RT settings, or resolution even further.

They have been messing with this this very generation on things like performance modes and what not even when you consider that they have had base consoles to work with.

So a single developer porting a game is going to break a budget? Or porting an engine in 2 days? Tools are also getting better, and this is going to be another generation where you are dealing with AMD tech. It is an evolution rather than the huge revolution we have been seeing in past generations.



So bad that Sony and Microsoft had mid gen refreshes? Come on man. We have a game that is running 1080p, 60fps, and 4k,30fps in addition to the base model, and all it took was two years. You create a game, the engine scales....you would then debug just as any other software. The tools are getting better too.
But who said a single developer scale down FH4 game? They were porting the engine and scaled up. Don't try to talk about something you don't know. Devs know better than you armchair developer or you think developers are lazy?

Like I said if midgen were the base of the game we would have more polygons, fp 16 usage on Ps4 Pro and Xbox One X, double packed math usage on PS4 Pro and other improvement better exploited, probably sometimes better shaders. Midgen are easy because it is easy to scale up like all devs have done out of Playground Games. And like devs were doing on Lokchart.

And they explain the Lockhart problem to Microsoft and they decided to cancel it. Lochkhart will probably be the Xbox One family until they decide to let the Xbox One gamily behind without crossgen games.
 

Tonky

Member
Aug 26, 2019
3,053
Lockhart might be dead, but the Xbox One S2 was just born. And it is a full-fledged next-generation 3.96TF. Get ready gamers
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,938
Gemüsepizza really opened my eyes yesterday as it pertains to Lockhart. It totally makes sense that Microsoft might have considered a version of Scarlett with a scaled-back GPU for XCloud servers. Especially if they don't plan to bring 4K game streaming to XCloud. Whether or not they follow through on that idea is another story.

What do you folks think? XCloud is obviously a large part of Microsoft's next-gen strategy. So how do you think they'll handle the transition to new hardware?
this is what tomwarren had told us a few days back. Check his post history, you will find it easily. I made a post about it a couple days ago as well.