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melodiousmowl

Member
Jan 14, 2018
3,774
CT
A big leap, yes. But...

thing like world persistence, maybe true procedurally generated worlds, persistent ai, are huge potential things

from a dev perspective, using rt is a game changer when setting up lighting. bring freed from data transfer limitations which have probably done more to stifle progression in evolving open world games especially, but could even bring about a map renaissance (think quake meets control but more so),

i think it could be the biggest boon to evolve gaming at one time, maybe tipping 2d to 3d
 

Screen Looker

Member
Nov 17, 2018
1,963
I don't know but that picture let me looking for the G spot ...

Saucy!

This is not a good comparison, it has low RAM on the 530, which is causing a lot of stuttering.

Isn't that kinda the point?

It's an update to a very similar game though. Incidentally the enhanced X patch for FH3 was 3 months effort.


After all that this killed me. Lol.

Man you almost nailed the actual specs.

I have to add the 4/5 TF Navi GPU in Lockhart would be similar boat performance wise that the Xbox One GPU was at launch in comparison to the market.

The 1.3TF GPU was around a quarter the power of the top of line GPUs in 2013.

4/5TF Navi would be around a quarter of the top AMD cards in 2020.

Do people think devs will stop supporting 1080p cards like the GTX 1060 Super / GTX 1070 in the coming generation?

It's probably a QA burden for small scale console only developers, but I don't think Lockhart is weak enough to hold back next gen gaming.

It run circles around the XB1X / Pro.

Temporal upscaled from 960x1080 to 1080p and then upscaled to 4k using super scaling is going to look like a generational leap from those coming from base consoles.

Where did you get that something would be upscaled to 4K? Are you talking about 4K TVs upscaling


Interesting group they are. Lol.

Looking back at this thread is going to be pretty funny once everything gets officially unveiled. =) Some people are clearly going to be wrong and it'll be interesting to see if anyone tries to defend their initial points from the side they chose to push.

I will happily eat crow, but I was right about folks thinking making games down to a 1080p console was dumb.

I still maintain trying to sell a console as 1080p in 2020 would be a complete flop as everyone moves to 4K over the next 4-5 years and you're marketing with these upgrades anyway.

One thing I will give credit for is that I was not considering a need to update the streaming backend to be compatible with Scarlett-Only next gen games (mostly cuz I was thinking economically and not dev pipeline). But it makes 100% sense that there will need to be efforts made to upgrade streaming hardware to be capable of streaming Scarlett-Only games in lower than 4K resolution in the future.Short term, their solution seems to be every game for Scarlett made by Xbox must support Xbox One as well, but there has to be a cutoff for that I'm sure.

Streaming in 4K is hardware intensive and also really dumb even with 5G coming.

Lastly, I do wonder what PlayStation does with PS Now and PS5 games with that in mind. At the rate they add PS4 games I don't see any even being on there for like 5 years anyway (lol jk).

Anyway, it is an interesting question of whether some of the outlines for chipsets we've seen that are weaker could be used in a similar fashion by PlayStation to power their PS Now service as an upgrade from the PS3/PS4 backbone it is today to just a PS5 backbone that supports all PS platforms PS5 would support (hopefully, it would be everything back to PS1).

Final final: |OT8| Live free or die Lockhart
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
I'm not saying it's "hard", I'm saying that it costs money and the gain from this isn't really clear considering that we're talking about adding a 1080p machine to a 4K one - as if we don't have enough 1080p consoles on the market already. The idea behind Lockheart is a weird one for sure as I have issues imagining people buying a solely 1080p console in 2022 just because it cost some 20% less than a 4K counterpart. The economics of such market situation is highly dubious and would likely lead to lower end console being neglected in QA by most parties.
The problem is people are looking at this decision as an emotional one as opposed to being a financial decision. Developers who are going cross gen are doing that because they think that that is the easiest way to get the best financial returns before a new generation achieves good enough traction. Them not wanting another version of a console is something that works to their own financial interest. It is not Microsoft's job to worry about that.......Microsoft's job is to worry about whether a weaker version of the next gen console will allow them to have better market penetration.

If they think that it is a gamble that could work, then they have to launch it. The same developers that are complaining are the same ones that will make money off the same platform once they ditch current gen consoles. It should cost money to make money, this is how business works.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,828
Australia
I will happily eat crow, but I was right about folks thinking making games down to a 1080p console was dumb.

I still maintain trying to sell a console as 1080p in 2020 would be a complete flop as everyone moves to 4K over the next 4-5 years and you're marketing with these upgrades anyway.

I don't think Lockhart is happening, but I also don't think anyone is actually claiming would ever be marketed as a 1080p console. It would probably manage a mix of resolutions when you include BC, and would be marketed merely as a more affordable option.
 

Dant21

Member
Apr 24, 2018
842
Anyway, it is an interesting question of whether some of the outlines for chipsets we've seen that are weaker could be used in a similar fashion by PlayStation to power their PS Now service as an upgrade from the PS3/PS4 backbone it is today to just a PS5 backbone that supports all PS platforms PS5 would support (hopefully, it would be everything back to PS1).
I've been wondering this myself, PS Now relies on having nodes with identical hardware as the console the game was designed for, meaning they're still having to maintain these old PS3 "servers" that are using old Nvidia chip designs and old Cell CPU designs that would be damned expensive to try and move to newer process nodes. Unless Sony just intends to phase PS3 games off of the service, and relatively soon, it makes sense that they need to develop some kind of backwards compatibility solution for the inevitable PS5 "servers"/nodes... And if they do that, then it just makes sense to allow PS3 BC on PS5, at least for those titles which are available on PS Now.
 

Screen Looker

Member
Nov 17, 2018
1,963
I don't think Lockhart is happening, but I also don't think anyone is actually claiming would ever be marketed as a 1080p console. It would probably manage a mix of resolutions when you include BC, and would be marketed merely as a more affordable option.

oh my friend, you gotta go back a few threads for that. I don't want to get too deep in the weeds on it again, but thats exactly what folks said it could be marketed as.

It was an argument in response to my and others ideas that two consoles with entirely different specs at launch is confusing for the buyer. We've never seen it. The most we've had is storage differences with other advancements coming later in a generation and SKUs being phased out.

Not to mention, Xbox is marketing it's games, at least Halo: Infinite, as cross generational so backwards compatibility doesn't even seem to matter for a lower spec'd console as a standout feature.


I've been wondering this myself, PS Now relies on having nodes with identical hardware as the console the game was designed for, meaning they're still having to maintain these old PS3 "servers" that are using old Nvidia chip designs and old Cell CPU designs that would be damned expensive to try and move to newer process nodes. Unless Sony just intends to phase PS3 games off of the service, and relatively soon, it makes sense that they need to develop some kind of backwards compatibility solution for the inevitable PS5 "servers"/nodes... And if they do that, then it just makes sense to allow PS3 BC on PS5, at least for those titles which are available on PS Now.

It is the best reason I can think of for pushing PS5 to be fully backwards compatible all the way to PS1 days. Which seems it could be possible based on patents they've filed around how the architecture can mimic the timing of operations from other architectures (if I remember correctly)
 
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Dant21

Member
Apr 24, 2018
842
It is the best reason I can think of for pushing PS5 to be fully backwards compatible all the way to PS1 days. Which seems it could be possible based on patents they've filed around how the architecture can mimic the timing of operations from other architectures (if I remember correctly)
It's absolutely possible, but those timing patents are a hint to PS4 BC, not anything else. It's definitely possible because people testing RPCS3 under Linux on the PS4 found that a pretty good number of games were playable. The PS5's hardware should be able to handle PS3 emulation pretty well given that benchmark.

But, I'm still going to keep my expectations low. Just because BC is easy, doesn't mean we'll get it. For example, the Wii U had all the hardware needed to play GameCube games. It was just missing a drive that could accept the smaller discs, and support in Wii mode for starting GameCube mode. There was so little in the way of making it work, that the homebrew/hacking scene were able to get the Wii U to play GameCube ISOs with bear 100% compatibility and the ability to use GameCube controllers connected through the adapter meant for Smash 4 and not with extreme effort either. Yet, Nintendo didn't bother.
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
...if Lockhart has headroom to supersample next gen games on 1080p sets, then we're truly not pushing the hardware to do new things at all next generation.

???
960 x 1080 temporal upscale to 1080p then upscaled to 4k using AMD sharpening.

Lockhart will have 8-10x the processing power per pixel over the base Xbox one not counting HW RT. Nearly 4x flops wise, then additional 2X+ due to RDNA efficiencies over GCN1.2, rapid packed math and VRS.

Even at 1080p 120fps, Lockhart will have a 2x processing power per pixel over a 1080p 30fp game on XB1.
 
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Dant21

Member
Apr 24, 2018
842
???
960 x 1080 temporal upscale to 1080p then upscaled to 4k using super resolution.

Lockhart will have 8-10x the processing power per pixel over the base Xbox one not counting HW RT.

Even at 1080p 120fps, Lockhart will have a 2x processing power per pixel over a 30fp game on XB1.
It seems you've confused terminology. Super resolution or SSAA is where you render at a higher resolution than your display is capable of handling, then downscale the output to your display's resolution to achieve a very high quality anti-aliasing effect.
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
???
960 x 1080 temporal upscale to 1080p then upscaled to 4k using AMD sharpening.

Lockhart will have 8-10x the processing power per pixel over the base Xbox one not counting HW RT. Nearly 4x flops wise, then additional 2X+ due to RDNA efficiencies over GCN1.2, rapid packed math and VRS.

Even at 1080p 120fps, Lockhart will have a 2x processing power per pixel over a 1080p 30fp game on XB1.
4tf x1.3x(real advantage over small gcn like in consoles not tragic vega56 or64) would be 2.8x over ps4 after 7years, great achievement :d
 

KOHIPEET

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,416
Just a random thought. This week is 25th anniversary week. Every day we get something Playstation-related. Five weekdays. Wonder if weget some small tease on friday. (Like, "see you in february" something like that)
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,275
According to the DF a Navi flops has ~90% efficiency improvement over the Polaris GCN in PS4 and x1. /shrug
Either you misunderstood them or they're wrong.

1) PS4 & X1 don't use Polaris. They're mainly GCN1 while Polaris is GCN4. The difference is only like 20% between them though.

2) Actual tests show that the gain is 39% between Navi & Polaris. https://www.computerbase.de/2019-07/radeon-rx-5700-xt-test/4/. It's 28% over Vega GCN, which is what sncvsrtoip was referring to.
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,094
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
My take on Lockhart and what I think it should be (if it's real)..

The approach of making Lockhart a weaker/cheaper Scarlett is, for me, the wrong one. It sends out a message of "I don´t have enough money for high end, so I have to settle with lower end). If anything, MS should provide possibilities for people to get into High End as easy as possible (the XBox all access is a good approach).

Now, I think that for Lockhart to be successful and differentiate more than Scarlett (and what also makes the lower specs more acceptable for people) is to make Lockhart portable, as the Switch.

This way, Lockhart offers something that high-end Scarlett does not do. And by having it portable, you offer another tier between Xcloud and Scarlett.
If Scarlett is the premium "cinema experience" (4K, 120fps etc), and Xcloud is like Netflix, Lockhart could be in between.

With Xcloud, for some people. the lag will be more present than for others, meaning that different people will experience Xcloud differently.
Lockhart portable solves this issue by being a portable hardware with games locally stored (and yes, it could also do Xcloud as well)

Xcloud could be the cheapest entry to play Xbox games, regardless of hardware.
Lockhart is the next step, you still want a more local/dependable Xbox experience that is also portable but at a lower price
Scarlett is the premium/cinema experience

The Switch is proving that a hybrid kind of hardware can be quite successful. MS could replicate the idea, with perhaps a more impressive type of hardware (RT in a portable?)
Now that MS has a respectable stable of gaming studios, and with Game pass and such, I see potential here.

But only if Lockhart is portable, it needs to differentiate itself more than lower specs/lower price and making it portable, makes the weaker specs more acceptable.

My 2c
 

Mack

Banned
May 30, 2019
1,653
My take on Lockhart and what I think it should be (if it's real)..

The approach of making Lockhart a weaker/cheaper Scarlett is, for me, the wrong one. It sends out a message of "I don´t have enough money for high end, so I have to settle with lower end). If anything, MS should provide possibilities for people to get into High End as easy as possible (the XBox all access is a good approach).

Now, I think that for Lockhart to be successful and differentiate more than Scarlett (and what also makes the lower specs more acceptable for people) is to make Lockhart portable, as the Switch.

This way, Lockhart offers something that high-end Scarlett does not do. And by having it portable, you offer another tier between Xcloud and Scarlett.
If Scarlett is the premium "cinema experience" (4K, 120fps etc), and Xcloud is like Netflix, Lockhart could be in between.

With Xcloud, for some people. the lag will be more present than for others, meaning that different people will experience Xcloud differently.
Lockhart portable solves this issue by being a portable hardware with games locally stored (and yes, it could also do Xcloud as well)

Xcloud could be the cheapest entry to play Xbox games, regardless of hardware.
Lockhart is the next step, you still want a more local/dependable Xbox experience that is also portable but at a lower price
Scarlett is the premium/cinema experience

The Switch is proving that a hybrid kind of hardware can be quite successful. MS could replicate the idea, with perhaps a more impressive type of hardware (RT in a portable?)
Now that MS has a respectable stable of gaming studios, and with Game pass and such, I see potential here.

But only if Lockhart is portable, it needs to differentiate itself more than lower specs/lower price and making it portable, makes the weaker specs more acceptable.

My 2c
No chance for dedicated portable hardware, xCloud is Microsoft's take on mobile/handheld gaming.
 

Aliand

Member
Oct 28, 2017
890
My take on Lockhart and what I think it should be (if it's real)..

The approach of making Lockhart a weaker/cheaper Scarlett is, for me, the wrong one. It sends out a message of "I don´t have enough money for high end, so I have to settle with lower end). If anything, MS should provide possibilities for people to get into High End as easy as possible (the XBox all access is a good approach).

Now, I think that for Lockhart to be successful and differentiate more than Scarlett (and what also makes the lower specs more acceptable for people) is to make Lockhart portable, as the Switch.

This way, Lockhart offers something that high-end Scarlett does not do. And by having it portable, you offer another tier between Xcloud and Scarlett.
If Scarlett is the premium "cinema experience" (4K, 120fps etc), and Xcloud is like Netflix, Lockhart could be in between.

With Xcloud, for some people. the lag will be more present than for others, meaning that different people will experience Xcloud differently.
Lockhart portable solves this issue by being a portable hardware with games locally stored (and yes, it could also do Xcloud as well)

Xcloud could be the cheapest entry to play Xbox games, regardless of hardware.
Lockhart is the next step, you still want a more local/dependable Xbox experience that is also portable but at a lower price
Scarlett is the premium/cinema experience

The Switch is proving that a hybrid kind of hardware can be quite successful. MS could replicate the idea, with perhaps a more impressive type of hardware (RT in a portable?)
Now that MS has a respectable stable of gaming studios, and with Game pass and such, I see potential here.

But only if Lockhart is portable, it needs to differentiate itself more than lower specs/lower price and making it portable, makes the weaker specs more acceptable.

My 2c
Lockhart est morte et tant mieux !
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
I meant GCN1 in PS4 and XB1. Polaris was a typo.

And the comparison with GCN 1.1 of base PS4 and base Xbox One is the most imporant things, it is the base of the current gen game. Midgen are only a scaled up version of base console games. I think the gap will be big for teams doing next generation exclusives and not only with the CPU and SSD but the GPU will play an important part into it.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
I think a 4TF Lockhart would still be quite capable because it would not have the shackles from the current gen, which means: fast storage, way more RAM and bandwidth, way more CPU power. That is, if it's a Scarlett with a less capable GPU, targeting 1080p instead of 4k. Of course resolution scaling is not exactly linear but 1080p is a fourth of 4k so Scarlett would be ~16TF then which it will not be. Due to modern tricks like TAA and checkerboarding it might be a cheap solution for a next gen experience.
But generally I doubt it will happen, MS wants as much of a high end console as possible for a reasonable price.
 
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