Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower (See Staff Post)

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BreakAtmo

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Nov 12, 2017
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We've heard all kinds of rumours about special memory paging techniques, GPU compression, and combined with the ultra fast SSD I'm assuming they feel that a big jump in RAM is not required this time around. It was the most surprising aspect of the specs though for sure (in it being lower than expected).
I would actually like Dictator to weigh in on this - one of the things that struck me when I watched the Star Citizen video was how the game is built around SSD speeds like what we expect from next-gen games, yet it also apparently demands at least 16GB of system RAM (so not even counting the VRAM in your graphics card). Made me wonder how far the concept of the SSD making up for less RAM can go.
 

MrKlaw

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Oct 25, 2017
10,126
Yeah the simplest, cleanest and cheapest? way to get 16GB would be 8 2GB chips. The Scarlett video I don't believe tells us anything other than confirm the GDDR6. After Richard Leadbetter stated just how much info was gleaned from the Scorpio video down to the die size, Microsoft made sure they didn't give anything away this time.

24GB/384-bit bus, 32GB or mixed density chips I just can't see happening.
doesn’t that also call into doubt the whole render and estimates of die size based on that?
 

Xeontech

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Oct 28, 2017
3,662
I think both designs are terrible actually.

The PS5 looks like something aimed at teenage boys and would look awful in any entertainment system clashing against any other device.

The Series X design (while better than ps5 dev kit) looks like one of those cigarette buts dispenser with its design an all those holes on the top. I don’t know if those are common outside of Sweden since we have VERY strict laws of where you can smoke nowadays but since they unveiled the x series that is all I can think of when I see its design.
Lolol cigarette butts dispenser.

See, for me they would be the centerpiece of the entertainment display.

The ps5 would be smack dab in the middle, all those LED's drawing the eyes.

The SeX tower would be more like an echo or Alexa device set to the side of the entertainment display. I couldn't lay that beautiful thing on its side like some subwoofer lol.

Both would stick out from all the black boxes already under my tv. I would wear them proudly in the living room haha.
 

Firmus_Anguis

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Oct 30, 2017
752
I'm looking forward to what Ueda will make for the PS5. Just thinking about the stuff he did with a PS2, and even with The Last Guardian on PS4, fuck... Just
 

Rumpestump

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Dec 8, 2018
718
I would actually like Dictator to weigh in on this - one of the things that struck me when I watched the Star Citizen video was how the game is built around SSD speeds like what we expect from next-gen games, yet it also apparently demands at least 16GB of system RAM (so not even counting the VRAM in your graphics card). Made me wonder how far the concept of the SSD making up for less RAM can go.
While the game nowadays certainly is build with an ssd in mind that certainly was not the case earlier in its development and still is not mandatory to play the game.

A game and especially a closed environment (every PS5/X series is the same) you know exactly how you can use an ssd.

While I certainly think SC is basically unplayable and will have it as a minimum spec when it releases I still don’t think how it takes advantage of ssd’s will be the same as the next gen games will.
 

pswii60

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Oct 27, 2017
12,331
UK
Masooma Bhaiwala, Senior Director of Design Engineering and responsible for the Xbox and PlayStation SoC leaves AMD and starts at Intel.

German source: https://www.golem.de/news/semi-custom-amds-konsolen-chefin-wechselt-zu-intel-1912-145668.html
Only english source I could find: https://www.crn.com/news/components-peripherals/intel-hires-ex-amd-silicon-design-exec-to-lead-discrete-gpu-efforts
His Her work is complete (I hope!)

EDIT: I made a subconscious sexist assumption without knowing the gender of the name and I hold my head in shame.
 

BreakAtmo

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Nov 12, 2017
4,822
While the game nowadays certainly is build with an ssd in mind that certainly was not the case earlier in its development and still is not mandatory to play the game.

A game and especially a closed environment (every PS5/X series is the same) you know exactly how you can use an ssd.

While I certainly think SC is basically unplayable and will have it as a minimum spec when it releases I still don’t think how it takes advantage of ssd’s will be the same as the next gen games will.
Ahhh, I see. I didn't know that it started development without the SSD requirement, so it makes a bit more sense now.
 

Flutter

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Oct 25, 2017
7,720
The best way for HBM to be cheaper is for it to be available in a product that sells by the tens of millions

It's too expensive for said product.

A catch 22 situation.
 

Rumpestump

Member
Dec 8, 2018
718
Lolol cigarette butts dispenser.

See, for me they would be the centerpiece of the entertainment display.

The ps5 would be smack dab in the middle, all those LED's drawing the eyes.

The SeX tower would be more like an echo or Alexa device set to the side of the entertainment display. I couldn't lay that beautiful thing on its side like some subwoofer lol.

Both would stick out from all the black boxes already under my tv. I would wear them proudly in the living room haha.
Yeah I know it perhaps might sound a bit weird but they basically are everywhere here in Sweden since you are not allowed to even smoke in public unless you are in a dedicated spot and in those places dispensers are sure to be seen.

I don’t want to link a picture because it might be taken the wrong way.

And I would/will hide both behind the TV when I get them 😂. Design surely is funny.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,030
A better question is why when these random pastebins come out, they still refer to PS5 as Oberon when Prospero has been confirmed by Schreier for months now? My super hot take? Someone leaked something out earlier this year about PS5 and Sony locked down all communications out and have only dripfed the info they want to come out. We have no actual clue what’s in the PS5 outside of what Klee may possibly know (and he isn’t talking).

It’s just too quiet this time around and as much as Cerny has told us about PS5, we still practically know nothing, yet we know almost everything about Series X, moreso with TGA reveal.
1. Good observation
2. I noticed Klee has also called it Prospero.
 

Fezan

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Oct 26, 2017
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chris 1515

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Oct 27, 2017
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I would actually like Dictator to weigh in on this - one of the things that struck me when I watched the Star Citizen video was how the game is built around SSD speeds like what we expect from next-gen games, yet it also apparently demands at least 16GB of system RAM (so not even counting the VRAM in your graphics card). Made me wonder how far the concept of the SSD making up for less RAM can go.
Console have different architecture they have unified memory. Virtual texturing is in Unreal Engine 4 since this year I think it release in September, I am not sure.


A good explanation of virtual texturing it helps reduce memory and bandwidth use for texture


Built-in support for virtual texturing will allow for more efficient usage of texture memory enabling artists to author very high resolution textures and lightmaps without worrying about what will fit in video memory as the engine will only stream in texels needed to display the frame.
Another way to reduce texture memory usage is to replace shadow maps by raytraced shadows and they can be cheaper:

Today I’d like to present some very exciting results which demonstrate how ray tracing delivers significant reductions in memory bandwidth and power consumption over traditional rasterized methods (i.e. cascaded shadow maps).
EDIT: I think all this change can maybe make 8 GB of VRAM a good choice a t 4k or at least 12 GB. You need memory for textures, geometry, data structure like BVH, Voxel if Voxel Cone tracing is used or surfel Point based color Bleeding, animation, some extra for other effect maybe.

From the sebastian aaltonen post on B3D he told a texture atlas of 256 MB in memory is enough at 4k PBR with virtual texturing out of shadow maps I suppose or maybe they are count inside.
 
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Dimajjio

Member
Oct 13, 2019
554
I'm guessing the next month or two is crunch time for Microsoft. If they only have 16GB RAM and Sony comes out with 24GB, will they up theirs or just stick to this software solution to use virtual memory and the SSD. I wonder what difference it will make to multiplatform games.
 
Possible PlayStation 5 related codenames

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,720
Playstation 5 codenames:

Development Kit:
Prospero

APU: Oberon


GPU: Ariel (GFX1000) (Navi10LITE)
Gonzalo (?) (Possibly Navi10LITE)

AMD Platform: Flute

Just in case anyone else wants to have a refresher.
 
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III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,030
Propero is the devkit I think
Right. Confirmed by jschrier as well. The discussion is:

it is a Sony name and Why would Sony follow AMD Shakespeare naming convention that AMD also used for MS products, ie Arden and Argalos?

Just a strange bit of trivia to me.

edit: to be clear I totally get that it is a Sony name and I am not trying to lay out any vast stupid conspiracy :), I also understand Komachi would not know the dev kit code name. Edited for clarity.
 
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Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,720
Right. Confirmed by jschrier as well. The discussion is:

1. why has Komachi never mentioned it if an AMD name, ie shakespeare named, Oberon, Gonzalo, ariel
2. If it is not an AMD name, it is a Sony name and Why would Sony follow AMD Shakespeare naming convention that AMD also used for MS products, ie Arden and Argalos?

Just a strange bit of trivia to me.
Komachi has stopped giving out info on console APUs for a while now. Only on trickle. I doubt he would have leaked that Sparkman had VRS and Hardware Ray Tracing if he knows it's Lockhart a while back. He also has leaked that Arden has hardware ray tracing.

However, nothing much about Ariel and Oberon. Not even if it has hardware ray tracing, VRS, or whatever. Only that it has 2 BC modes.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,436
Somewhere South
I would actually like Dictator to weigh in on this - one of the things that struck me when I watched the Star Citizen video was how the game is built around SSD speeds like what we expect from next-gen games, yet it also apparently demands at least 16GB of system RAM (so not even counting the VRAM in your graphics card). Made me wonder how far the concept of the SSD making up for less RAM can go.
Kinda sorta but not really. SSD speeds have a huge window of variability (I mean, PCIe 3 vs. PCIe 4, SATA vs. NVMe, etc) and PC's data structures/drivers/etc aren't really optimized to use them to their full capacity. And that's without getting into any customizations that Sony and MS might add to their storage solutions.

For instance, while the ridiculous bandwidth numbers caught our attention, one of the really big things about Sony's patent was that their proposed drive could have guaranteed access latencies - regardless of sequential or random - of 14ms and down - that's asking for data this frame and having it the next. You average PC SSD won't get anywhere near that during normal use.

So, while an SSD makes Star Citizen "feasible", they still have to account for this variation in perf metrics and have a lot of RAM to cache a bunch of stuff "just in case". These consoles most likely won't.
 

BitsandBytes

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Dec 16, 2017
3,649
Why is there speculation that PS5 is going to use HBM or go with more than 16 GB of memory?
Simply because it is a part that hasn't even been acknowledged by Sony much less confirmed. Not even the insiders have talked about or confirmed even the memory type...

Something funky going on? You decide.

ETA: I forgot about DS...Of course it will for sure be HBM! ;)
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,473
I don’t know about this but is it possible Sony still haven’t decided what to go with? They tested both HBM and GDDR6 and they know which will be best for them but are waiting for an opportunity to lock HBM (some sort of a deal? Price drop?).
 

Dimajjio

Member
Oct 13, 2019
554
Why is there speculation that PS5 is going to use HBM or go with more than 16 GB of memory?
I think most of the "leaks" about the PS5 devkit have had it with 24GB memory. In the past, Sony have kept the same amount of memory in the devkit and the final retail unit. At least, I think they have.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,436
Somewhere South
I don’t know about this but is it possible Sony still haven’t decided what to go with? They tested both HBM and GDDR6 and they know which will be best for them but are waiting for an opportunity to lock HBM (some sort of a deal? Price drop?).
Memory controllers are part of the APU (well, if you're doing HBM there are ways to have the controllers be part of the stacks, but then you'd design the APU without them, so... yeah), so no. APU design is 100% complete by now.
 

thuway

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,451
Simply because it is a part that hasn't even been acknowledged by Sony much less confirmed. Not even the insiders have talked about or confirmed even the memory type...

Something funky going on? You decide.

ETA: I forgot about DS...Of course it will for sure be HBM! ;)
16 GB packages go for 120 dollars for HBM. So with a bulk deal this could be an interesting move that has tremendous long term potential. Imagine the cost reduction of HBM if PS5 actually uses it.



At the very least we did have a rumor with HBM. Will be interesting to see if Sony goes through with it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,938
Simply because it is a part that hasn't even been acknowledged by Sony much less confirmed. Not even the insiders have talked about or confirmed even the memory type...

Something funky going on? You decide.

ETA: I forgot about DS...Of course it will for sure be HBM! ;)
Yo!

But yeah, I think Sony's RAM and SSD combo will actually be one of the best parts of the PS5. An excellent customized SSD that fills RAM very quickly coupled with a RAM solution (HBM/DDR4) that can provide a ton of bandwidth. Even if it isn't that specifically, it will be something different from the expected 16GB GDDR6.

Believe.
 

Ozorov

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,461
16 GB packages go for 120 dollars for HBM. So with a bulk deal this could be an interesting move that has tremendous long term potential. Imagine the cost reduction of HBM if PS5 actually uses it.



At the very least we did have a rumor with HBM. Will be interesting to see if Sony goes through with it.
What rumor?
 

d3ckard

Member
Dec 7, 2017
134
Yeah the simplest, cleanest and cheapest? way to get 16GB would be 8 2GB chips. The Scarlett video I don't believe tells us anything other than confirm the GDDR6. After Richard Leadbetter stated just how much info was gleaned from the Scorpio video down to the die size, Microsoft made sure they didn't give anything away this time.

24GB/384-bit bus, 32GB or mixed density chips I just can't see happening.
Why? What is so clean about 16GB? The fact that is a power of two?

As I said, I'm a software developer(though I write web servers, not games), so maybe I have a different approach to this, but I feel this train of thought is pretty simple.

16GB of RAM likely means 256 bit bus. From what I judge from people smarter than me on beyond3d is that might not be enough bandwidth-wise for that kind of GPU. You do not build a 12TF GPU that will be memory starved, since that defies the point - you could go with cheaper GPU, smaller chip and still have the same performance. People seem convinced that you cannot get that kind of bandwidth on 256 bit bus. If you have wider bus(like 320 or 384 bit) you have to add more RAM, or have different sized dies, which doesn't seem to make sense. Ergo - it makes sense they have either 20 or 24 GB, since they need the bandwidth to feed the GPU.

It has nothing to do with SSDs and the like - they are there for faster asset streaming, not for feeding the GPU. SSDs will be huge for open worlds, but they will not help in rendering. Also, there is no such thing as too much memory.

From developer's perspective, adding RAM is never a problem, so they can change the targets whenever they want.

This is pure speculation, so take it with a huge grain of salt(and while I have better than most grasp on optimization and computer performance, I have no specialized knowledge about graphic systems, so I can easily be wrong), but I just don't see how 16GB would work with the rest of the spec.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,436
Somewhere South
16GB of RAM likely means 256 bit bus. From what I judge from people smarter than me on beyond3d is that might not be enough bandwidth-wise for that kind of GPU. You do not build a 12TF GPU that will be memory starved, since that defies the point - you could go with cheaper GPU, smaller chip and still have the same performance. People seem convinced that you cannot get that kind of bandwidth on 256 bit bus. If you have wider bus(like 320 or 384 bit) you have to add more RAM, or have different sized dies, which doesn't seem to make sense. Ergo - it makes sense they have either 20 or 24 GB, since they need the bandwidth to feed the GPU.
The thing missing from this line of thought, of course, is that bus width is just one part of the equation. Yeah, 256bit @ 14gbps probably would be low for a 10TF+ plus CPU APU. 256bit @ 18gbps might be more than enough.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
4,822
Console have different architecture they have unified memory. Virtual texturing is in Unreal Engine 4 since this year I think it release in September, I am not sure.


A good explanation of virtual texturing it helps reduce memory and bandwidth use for texture




Another way to reduce texture memory usage is to replace shadow maps by raytraced shadows and they can be cheaper:



EDIT: I think all this change can maybe make 8 GB of VRAM a good choice a t 4k or at least 12 GB. You need memory for textures, geometry, data structure like BVH, Voxel if Voxel Cone tracing is used or surfel Point based color Bleeding, animation, some extra for other effect maybe.

From the sebastian aaltonen post on B3D he told a texture atlas of 256 MB in memory is enough at 4k PBR with virtual texturing out of shadow maps I suppose or maybe they are count inside.
Thank you for the links. VT should help, at least - I've heard it's similar to Mega Textures?

Kinda sorta but not really. SSD speeds have a huge window of variability (I mean, PCIe 3 vs. PCIe 4, SATA vs. NVMe, etc) and PC's data structures/drivers/etc aren't really optimized to use them to their full capacity. And that's without getting into any customizations that Sony and MS might add to their storage solutions.

For instance, while the ridiculous bandwidth numbers caught our attention, one of the really big things about Sony's patent was that their proposed drive could have guaranteed access latencies - regardless of sequential or random - of 14ms and down - that's asking for data this frame and having it the next. You average PC SSD won't get anywhere near that during normal use.

So, while an SSD makes Star Citizen "feasible", they still have to account for this variation in perf metrics and have a lot of RAM to cache a bunch of stuff "just in case". These consoles most likely won't.
All true but won't this also apply to the PC versions of the third-party games that will be made? I doubt that they'll demand NVMe SSDs. Maybe the solution will be that although the consoles will be able to get away with 16GB total RAM, PC versions of the same games might demand 16 or even 32GB of system RAM to make up for 500MB/s SATA SSDs?

Yo!

But yeah, I think Sony's RAM and SSD combo will actually be one of the best parts of the PS5. An excellent customized SSD that fills RAM very quickly coupled with a RAM solution (HBM/DDR4) that can provide a ton of bandwidth. Even if it isn't that specifically, it will be something different from the expected 16GB GDDR6.

Believe.
Something I can't recall - how much does 16GB of DDR4 generally cost?
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,436
Somewhere South
All true but won't this also apply to the PC versions of the third-party games that will be made? I doubt that they'll demand NVMe SSDs. Maybe the solution will be that although the consoles will be able to get away with 16GB total RAM, PC versions of the same games might demand 16 or even 32GB of system RAM to make up for 500MB/s SATA SSDs?
100% expect this to be the case, a considerable hike in baseline specs for memory (both system and video).
 

Ombala

Member
Oct 30, 2017
571
Playstation 5 codenames:

Development Kit:
Prospero

APU: Oberon

GPU: Ariel and Gonzalo (either one and the same, different GPUs, or something else)

AMD Platform: Flute

Just in case anyone else wants to have a refresher.
Should be threadmarked.

I jumped ahead about 100 pages, did we get any new solid info ekcept that Xseries seems to be 64 CU?
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,404
Barcelona Spain
Thank you for the links. VT should help, at least - I've heard it's similar to Mega Textures?



All true but won't this also apply to the PC versions of the third-party games that will be made? I doubt that they'll demand NVMe SSDs. Maybe the solution will be that although the consoles will be able to get away with 16GB total RAM, PC versions of the same games might demand 16 or even 32GB of system RAM to make up for 500MB/s SATA SSDs?



Something I can't recall - how much does 16GB of DDR4 generally cost?
on DRAM Exchange but it is not the price for order of millions units, it is 3 dollars the GB for DDR4 2400. This is spot price not the price Sony would paid at all.

If 8 GB is enough for VRAM during the generation and HBM2E info_MS is a possibility not too expensive. 8GB HBM2E stack at 2.8 Gbps +16 GB of DDR4 3200 256 bits bus could be a great combnation from a technical and cost of point of view. But this is too many supposition.
 
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d3ckard

Member
Dec 7, 2017
134
The thing missing from this line of thought, of course, is that bus width is just one part of the equation. Yeah, 256bit @ 14gbps probably would be low for a 10TF+ plus CPU APU. 256bit @ 18gbps might be more than enough.
Valid point. Notice however that 18 to 14 gbps is a factor of 1.28, while adding RAM to 20GB is a factor of 1.25 with additional benefit of more lanes, which can help with CPU/GPU contention. I would go with more of a slower memory, since that should mean wider availability. I don't see how 25% increase in RAM cost would be huge for boxes that powerful and given how every generation devs talk about importance of moving data around, I think it was important design point.

When you design the system, you don't go for magic numbers to make fanboys drool, you make sure that your investment makes sense. Since they apparently targeted very high GPU power(once again - double digits were kind of a dream not so long ago) and CPU is not shabby either, they had to take memory into account from the very start.

Of course, it's still possible that 16GB has enough bandwidth. I just don't see it, because 16GB of RAM is just not that much nowadays and memory constraints are the hardest thing to optimize for. If you build a box twice as fast as Scorpio(and PS5 is probably similar), why would you give it just 33% more RAM?
 
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