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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower (See Staff Post)
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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Again with HBCC this is fully transparent if the faster pool of RAM have enough place to not be a bottleneck.
I think 8GB is enough because it is enough for PC for the moment and when game engine will be tailored for fast SSD fast the need of fast RAM will not increase. The dangerous part is cross gen games. You need enough fast RAM to not be a handicap.
They need 8GB DDR4.
5GB for CPU and 3GB for OS/PS store apps.. and so on.
Want to point out these posts that are allegedly just as bad as signal boosting an actually-insane alt-right conspiracy theorist?
8GB might be enough, but if it's enough then 16GB of GDDR6 is more than enough and will cost them less, give them a more standard straightforward setup and will make developer life easier. HBCC is nice in order to reduce stutters on PC because reading pages from RAM is faster than the HDD, but no console developer will make a game where he doesn't know how fast the engine can access certain data. I mean it could be on a 500GB/s+ HBM2 or on the 100GB/s DDR4, if the system manages that for them then they don't have control. It's fine on PCs, not on consoles.
All I'm saying is that we are going through crazy hoops in order to build a weird setup that wasn't even created for gaming GPUs just so we can use the cool buzz word "HBM" which doesn't even benefit gaming machines much in the age of GDDR6.
Just click on the Rbej posts quoted by Mr. Bluth and it'll direct you there.
In this scenario, the CPU and GPU share the 16GB for gaming. A 4GB separate pool makes sense, and it doesn't need to be desktop grade DDR4. All you're doing there is necessitating a whole other memory controller on your precious APU silicon die area.
I guess I should have added a "/s", to the end of my post. Sorry.
I checked, it was a couple of annoying fanboys, but their posts didn't come close to posting MXM crap. That stuff goes beyond mere console warring.
Again I doubt it is difficult to separate the data needed by the GPU or the CPU in HBCC it is done by the controller.
And it is not a crazy setup, the goal is to have a fast bandwidth and be cost effective. Depending of the speed of GDDR6 I think the setup I imagined is cheapest at launch and the gap will increase after 2 to 3 yeast. The simplest things will be to take 16 GB of HBM2 4 stacks more expensive than 16 GB of GDDR6
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Do we have any information about the cost of manufacturing HBM2E??? Sony had great deals with RAM manufacturers for PS4.
See my last post. I did not talk about thermal problems but about that it makes it more challenging for cooling and in result more challenging to get sustainable high clocks.
How about if you stack it on a separate I/O die? Still too near?
With the PS5 already clocked @ 2ghz for the GPU using HBM would be foolish.
This is maybe the reason they will cool on the two sides of the die, it looks like it is the case on Prospero devkit.
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The simplest for both the console maker and developers and the cheapest setup today is X amount of unified GDDR6 memory. What will be the case in 2023? Who knows.
I honestly have no idea how to tackle the challenge of HBM and a high clocked SOC in a small form factor with just air cooling, all what I wanted was to introduce the challenge such an approach would come with into the discussion. In a server environment you would just liquid cool that thing. Challenge solved.
I personally think that coupling HBM with a very high clocked SOC is a bad idea for the reasons I explained.
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on which, MCM or HBM on I/O die?
I think it's possible for the first, and yeah, no idea on the latter.
HBM on I/O die is a MCM approach like the Zen 2 CPUs. the Communication takes place via Infinity Fabric or a similar technology and I think you would lose some advantages of HBM if you have something like Infinity Fabric between memory and the cores as a bottleneck.
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Thanks! I've been wondering about that.
I've read this one on cooling stacked memory at least, but maybe this is only for server based CPUs.
HBM and I/O die on the bottom. APU on the top with straight through vias to I/O die. That's the concept taken to the extreme, IMO.
If they are using HBM I assume it will be implemented like with Vega?
I agree about a further increase of heat from this vs GDDR6, Colbert. It would add ~20W to an already 150-200W APU. The Sony heatsink patent then might come in handy.
I agree about a further increase of heat from this vs GDDR6, Colbert. It would add ~20W to an already 150-200W APU. The Sony heatsink patent then might come in handy.
Lol. Cerny Be likeCerny reading this thread:
He clearly has no idea how to solve the challenge of stacking hbm2 on a die. What a fool designing his entire console around it. Now that hbm2 is finally affordable he's got his hbm2 and 700 gbps bandwidth but is stuck with an 8 tflops gpu because cooling is not his forte.
That's one of the patents I was referring to. I honestly don't think we will see consoles as the front runner for 3D stacking.
I've been actually thinking more about the I/O. Cerny talked about it, Ybarra said it's a fact that Sony's solution is better than what PC has and I wonder if that's the 'secret sauce'.
Finding out that I/O doesnt scale well to 7nm made me more fascinated too... which is why I've been thinking about a separate die, which apparently AMD thought as well would happen in 2013 on the slide I posted a few pages back.
Finding out that I/O doesnt scale well to 7nm made me more fascinated too... which is why I've been thinking about a separate die, which apparently AMD thought as well would happen in 2013 on the slide I posted a few pages back.
This is 2.5D stacking. Isn't the patent you talking about based on 3D stacking? I can't remember.If they are using HBM I assume it will be implemented like with Vega?
I agree about a further increase of heat from this vs GDDR6, Colbert. It would add ~20W to an already 150-200W APU. The Sony heatsink patent then might come in handy.
Edit: it is not 3D stacking based but after have seen the patent it remains to be a challenge.
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We had discussions before about how anything above 8-10TF wasn't feasible because of heat and things of that nature....and here we are with consoles in the 12-13TF range.
We just lack way too much information on how the consoles are being constructed to completely rule anything out. We don't know about patents, deals with manufacturers, how parts of the console impact other parts, how the tech that has already been announced will be refined by launch next year, etc.. This is another reason why I'm ardent about HBM. It would just fall in line with all the other "impossible" happenings up to this point.
We just lack way too much information on how the consoles are being constructed to completely rule anything out. We don't know about patents, deals with manufacturers, how parts of the console impact other parts, how the tech that has already been announced will be refined by launch next year, etc.. This is another reason why I'm ardent about HBM. It would just fall in line with all the other "impossible" happenings up to this point.
Cerny about to get that high-bandwidth ass-whooping from Jimmy RyanLol. Cerny Be like
He clearly has no idea how to solve the challenge of stacking hbm2 on a die. What a fool designing his entire console around it. Now that hbm2 is finally affordable he's got his hbm2 and 700 gbps bandwidth but is stuck with an 8 tflops gpu because cooling is not his forte.
Lol good detective work. Sometimes people need to stay quiet and they can keep their trolling fanboy account unexposed, the Cardinal rule for these guys, but sometimes people just need to put targets on themselves
What does this have anything to do with you said before or what I quote you on?
Obviously both will very capable machines, so that's why your insistence on the baseless narrative that the PS5 will be hurt because it was almost ready (sic) to launch in 2019 is just bizzarre, as it won't affect the Series X in any way.
And again, no need to "fucking lol" at people for speculating what RAM configuration the PS5 will end up having. What a stark comparison with DrKeo's and Chris1515's posts debating said subject from opposed, but respectful, points of view.
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Probably yes, but in either case the HBM chips will be within the 2 inch square SoC package? If I was to guess I would say OG PS4 SoC package TDP was ~75-100W, Pro ~125W and now PS5 >200W? What sort of cooling do >200W TDP CPUs in the PC space need to cool them?
Cerny is too busy playing Knack 3 on his devkit to read this thread anyway
I love the idea of HBM. It seems to be mid gen upgrade friendly, and other than price it looks like a good alternative for GDDR6 RAM. Still I was thinking that maybe the RAM isn't MS and Sony's focus. They've seen where game development could benefit more and the main focus is on something else. With Sony we know it's the SSD.
Also fits with Cerny's modus operandi of making something easy to develop, but hard to master. Think multiplatform games would be fine with 12-16 GB RAM for gaming for the next 2, 3 years. After that we will see them finally taking advantage of the SSD (which is probably why Sony decides to focus on making it as fast to access as possible).
Much like compute was, that made something like Spider-man possible on an OG PS4.
Also fits with Cerny's modus operandi of making something easy to develop, but hard to master. Think multiplatform games would be fine with 12-16 GB RAM for gaming for the next 2, 3 years. After that we will see them finally taking advantage of the SSD (which is probably why Sony decides to focus on making it as fast to access as possible).
Much like compute was, that made something like Spider-man possible on an OG PS4.
We had this discussions about everything truth be told and it would be fun to add another one to the wrong side.
Only 2 more months to find out what they doing .
HBM3 and possibly some new revision of HBM2E is not using 2.5D stacking FYI.
Here's AMD talking about die stacking back in 2012. I'm not sure how much has changed though.
I could see it being as early as January and as late as April (around the time of the first Wired article). I hope it's earlier.
GPU has full 16GB HBM2E and 5GB DDR4 for CPU.
Having memory shared may cause bandwidth decreasing like PS4.
not gaming related. The other keyword in the google search is 'infiniband'Nvidia has GPUDirect, but this is probably for something else than gaming?
GPUDirect
developer.nvidia.com
He's just asking about his current PS4 games, I'd say there's a chance but that depends on how BC works. For PS5 games, nuhuh.
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