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senjutsusage

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
274
That literally sounds like hardware RT though.

I'll give him benefit of the doubt, but based on all the info we have collectively, it really does sound like Microsoft may, at a minimum, possibly have a more advanced or specialized hardware solution direct from AMD for ray tracing. Taken together with AMD's press release on Xbox Series X along with Microsoft's own press release, along with Microsoft's constant message about hardware ray tracing, that's the impression I come away with.



https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2019/12/12/microsoft-unveils-xbox-series-x/

Sony hasn't come off quite as forthcoming in what they have on the hardware ray tracing front. I'm willing to believe Cerny when he says they have hardware ray tracing support, but it still seems as if we may not be getting the entire story. Is there any other example besides the one that people point to where Sony has talked about ray tracing? For example, in the wired article the only example cerny gives is one involving audio, nothing visual about lighting effects. In fact, his answers so far on hardware ray tracing come off a little evasive if I'm being honest. That isn't like Cerny who usually tends to go into detail about the kinds of things the hardware will be able to make possible, and he hasn't, not once, apparently gone into visual benefits of ray tracing? Only an audio example?

Take the observed confidence, for example, on their SSD solution, the same confidence cited by many users on this very forum as clear evidence that Sony must have a very advanced SSD solution (one that maybe tops what Microsoft has), and it is, quite frankly, night and day compared to what Sony has said about Ray Tracing, easily the most talked about and desired new feature in next gen consoles.

Either Sony has an entirely different hardware solution that isn't the same method AMD has gone with for RDNA2, something from an entirely different vendor, or they came up with their own hardware solution, or, the last option, they're doing ray tracing mostly via software and are just using parts of their GPU's non ray tracing specific components to help perform the operations, in other words the way you could always attempt ray tracing, but slower. You could always attempt ray tracing with existing hardware, it just wouldn't exactly produce results better than if you had specialized ray tracing hardware like what Nvidia has in their GPUs. It remains to be seen just how good AMD's ray tracing solution is also. It has to prove itself also.

Back to the possible software solution. There's a form of ray tracing even in Gears 5 currently (even on og Xbox One), as well as in some other titles. Same for VRS for example, I believe a COD title came up with their own software solution for that in their game engine, Infinite Warfare has it I think. So that time will come where Sony will get more specific about what they have going on. I highly doubt devs would waste resources on a possible slower software or shader based ray tracing solution, so this leads me to suspect that PS5, until Sony proves otherwise, possibly has no ray tracing hardware support, and will instead just blow our minds with what they can do on significantly more powerful hardware, the way their first parties always do.

I'm hoping the information dug up is outdated and not representative of the true final PS5 chip, but if this is the real thing, it's a safe bet it's not quite as advanced as the xbox series x chip. I do not believe Cerny's statements on ray tracing hardware support up to this point have been as definitive as they could have been, knowing his reputation for going into detail. He would have detailed examples by now. Why demo the SSD load, but not demo the most talked about next gen feature? Spider-Man with ray traced lighting active would have been a very nice thing to show off, and perhaps we'll get that or another title at the proper PS5 reveal.
 

EBomb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
464
I mean it is possible series x when they say 2x performance/flops they are making a gcn conversion. In fact I'd say it's a pretty strong likelihood MS marketing folks are doing exactly that.

I don't really see how that possibility relates at all to lockheart, a system that hasn't been publicly announced and we have no MS public statements on.

There were arguments today from members citing a French article from February 2019 prior to RDNA announcement stating 12 and 4 for Anaconda and Lockhart respectively, stating they were using GCN flops.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
I love how calm this thread becomes once neutered intel on hardware appears.

Gather round friend. Let me tell you about HBM!

giphy.gif
 
Feb 23, 2019
1,426
I'll give him benefit of the doubt, but based on all the info we have collectively, it really does sound like Microsoft may, at a minimum, possibly have a more advanced or specialized hardware solution direct from AMD for ray tracing. Taken together with AMD's press release on Xbox Series X along with Microsoft's own press release, along with Microsoft's constant message about hardware ray tracing, that's the impression I come away with.



https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2019/12/12/microsoft-unveils-xbox-series-x/

Sony hasn't come off quite as forthcoming in what they have on the hardware ray tracing front. I'm willing to believe Cerny when he says they have hardware ray tracing support, but it still seems as if we may not be getting the entire story. Is there any other example besides the one that people point to where Sony has talked about ray tracing? For example, in the wired article the only example cerny gives is one involving audio, nothing visual about lighting effects. In fact, his answers so far on hardware ray tracing come off a little evasive if I'm being honest. That isn't like Cerny who usually tends to go into detail about the kinds of things the hardware will be able to make possible, and he hasn't, not once, apparently gone into visual benefits of ray tracing? Only an audio example?

Take the observed confidence, for example, on their SSD solution, the same confidence cited by many users on this very forum as clear evidence that Sony must have a very advanced SSD solution (one that maybe tops what Microsoft has), and it is, quite frankly, night and day compared to what Sony has said about Ray Tracing, easily the most talked about and desired new feature in next gen consoles.

Either Sony has an entirely different hardware solution that isn't the same method AMD has gone with for RDNA2, something from an entirely different vendor, or they came up with their own hardware solution, or, the last option, they're doing ray tracing mostly via software and are just using parts of their GPU's non ray tracing specific components to help perform the operations, in other words the way you could always attempt ray tracing, but slower. You could always attempt ray tracing with existing hardware, it just wouldn't exactly produce results better than if you had specialized ray tracing hardware like what Nvidia has in their GPUs. It remains to be seen just how good AMD's ray tracing solution is also. It has to prove itself also.

Back to the possible software solution. There's a form of ray tracing even in Gears 5 currently (even on og Xbox One), as well as in some other titles. Same for VRS for example, I believe a COD title came up with their own software solution for that in their game engine, Infinite Warfare has it I think. So that time will come where Sony will get more specific about what they have going on. I highly doubt devs would waste resources on a possible slower software or shader based ray tracing solution, so this leads me to suspect that PS5, until Sony proves otherwise, possibly has no ray tracing hardware support, and will instead just blow our minds with what they can do on significantly more powerful hardware, the way their first parties always do.

I'm hoping the information dug up is outdated and not representative of the true final PS5 chip, but if this is the real thing, it's a safe bet it's not quite as advanced as the xbox series x chip. I do not believe Cerny's statements on ray tracing hardware support up to this point have been as definitive as they could have been, knowing his reputation for going into detail. He would have detailed examples by now. Why demo the SSD load, but not demo the most talked about next gen feature? Spider-Man with ray traced lighting active would have been a very nice thing to show off, and perhaps we'll get that or another title at the proper PS5 reveal.

Dude

It's hardware RT on the GPU conformed by Mark Cerny, and previous insiders like Klee and Matt

No need to over complicate this
 

senjutsusage

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
274
And it is not at all insignificant that the two chips believed to be Xbox Series X and lockhart both showcase evidence of VRS as well as hardware ray tracing, but it's the one chip that was believed to be the PS5 this entire time that has no evidence of it. So we definitely need more info. I'm personally hoping the info is old, I don't believe it's wrong. I want PS5 to be more than just 9.2 teraflops, and I want to see what PS5 devs do with true hardware ray tracing support. If they don't have it will I give a damn? Nope, not really. I'll just move on, but since it isn't confirmed fully to not have it yet, I want PS5 to have it all.
 

VX1

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,000
Europe
I'll give him benefit of the doubt, but based on all the info we have collectively, it really does sound like Microsoft may, at a minimum, possibly have a more advanced or specialized hardware solution direct from AMD for ray tracing. Taken together with AMD's press release on Xbox Series X along with Microsoft's own press release, along with Microsoft's constant message about hardware ray tracing, that's the impression I come away with.



https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2019/12/12/microsoft-unveils-xbox-series-x/

Sony hasn't come off quite as forthcoming in what they have on the hardware ray tracing front. I'm willing to believe Cerny when he says they have hardware ray tracing support, but it still seems as if we may not be getting the entire story. Is there any other example besides the one that people point to where Sony has talked about ray tracing? For example, in the wired article the only example cerny gives is one involving audio, nothing visual about lighting effects. In fact, his answers so far on hardware ray tracing come off a little evasive if I'm being honest. That isn't like Cerny who usually tends to go into detail about the kinds of things the hardware will be able to make possible, and he hasn't, not once, apparently gone into visual benefits of ray tracing? Only an audio example?

Take the observed confidence, for example, on their SSD solution, the same confidence cited by many users on this very forum as clear evidence that Sony must have a very advanced SSD solution (one that maybe tops what Microsoft has), and it is, quite frankly, night and day compared to what Sony has said about Ray Tracing, easily the most talked about and desired new feature in next gen consoles.

Either Sony has an entirely different hardware solution that isn't the same method AMD has gone with for RDNA2, something from an entirely different vendor, or they came up with their own hardware solution, or, the last option, they're doing ray tracing mostly via software and are just using parts of their GPU's non ray tracing specific components to help perform the operations, in other words the way you could always attempt ray tracing, but slower. You could always attempt ray tracing with existing hardware, it just wouldn't exactly produce results better than if you had specialized ray tracing hardware like what Nvidia has in their GPUs. It remains to be seen just how good AMD's ray tracing solution is also. It has to prove itself also.

Back to the possible software solution. There's a form of ray tracing even in Gears 5 currently (even on og Xbox One), as well as in some other titles. Same for VRS for example, I believe a COD title came up with their own software solution for that in their game engine, Infinite Warfare has it I think. So that time will come where Sony will get more specific about what they have going on. I highly doubt devs would waste resources on a possible slower software or shader based ray tracing solution, so this leads me to suspect that PS5, until Sony proves otherwise, possibly has no ray tracing hardware support, and will instead just blow our minds with what they can do on significantly more powerful hardware, the way their first parties always do.

I'm hoping the information dug up is outdated and not representative of the true final PS5 chip, but if this is the real thing, it's a safe bet it's not quite as advanced as the xbox series x chip. I do not believe Cerny's statements on ray tracing hardware support up to this point have been as definitive as they could have been, knowing his reputation for going into detail. He would have detailed examples by now. Why demo the SSD load, but not demo the most talked about next gen feature? Spider-Man with ray traced lighting active would have been a very nice thing to show off, and perhaps we'll get that or another title at the proper PS5 reveal.
You are making a good point,i'd say both Sony and MS are talking mostly about SSD and Zen2.They know those things will make the biggest difference and improvement next gen. And speaking of Sony,yes i agree, the fact that Cerny/Ryan barely mentioned RT and GPU at all is suspicious in a sense that opens the door to wild speculations.
 

Khrol

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,179
You are making a good point,i'd say both Sony and MS are talking mostly about SSD and Zen2.They know those things will make the biggest difference and improvement next gen. And speaking of Sony,yes i agree, the fact that Cerny/Ryan barely mentioned RT and GPU at all is suspicious.
I've noticed that as well. I try not to read into it too much since these companies always play their cards close to the vest.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,846
You are making a good point,i'd say both Sony and MS are talking mostly about SSD and Zen2. And speaking of Sony,yes i agree, the fact that Cerny/Ryan barely mentioned RT and GPU at all is suspicious.
I think they talked more about RT and how it can be used than MS. Cerny even specified the RT hardware was in the GPU. MS didn't. They said "hardware accelerated". Maybe they were talking about the CPU.
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
I think MS is playing up things like Zen2, the SSD and RT simply because Sony did first. Follow the leader
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,141
You are making a good point,i'd say both Sony and MS are talking mostly about SSD and Zen2.They know those things will make the biggest difference and improvement next gen. And speaking of Sony,yes i agree, the fact that Cerny/Ryan barely mentioned RT and GPU at all is suspicious.

There nothing suspicious about it Sony has not done there full reveal yet .
We have not seen anything for the system be it software or hardware .
When Sony show off there system then you will see that stuff .
Sony has not talk much about the cpu either so not certain where you get that form .

www.wired.com

Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStation

Don't expect it anytime in 2019, but the next PlayStation console is well on its way—and it's packing ray-tracing support and a loadtime-killing solid-state hard drive.
Mostly talk about there SSD tech and what it means for games.

www.wired.com

Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5

Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.
Clear up the RT problem and talk about the SSD and controller .
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
It's pretty much a 5500, but with worse performance, probably because it runs on an APU and is an AO build. A lot of things point towards the Oberon chip as an RDNA1 chip.
 

nolifebr

Banned
Sep 1, 2018
11,465
Curitiba/BR
So...

- Spencer writes a text on the Xbox website saying that the X Series has 12TF rDNA = Real
- Cerny confirms in a newspaper that the PS5 has HW RT = False

Is this it or am I reading something wrong?
 

senjutsusage

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
274
Dude

It's hardware RT on the GPU conformed by Mark Cerny, and previous insiders like Klee and Matt

No need to over complicate this

He used an audio example, not a lighting or graphics example in the wired article for ray tracing support on PS5. Then when pressed to clarify what ray tracing means for PS5, the usually very detailed Cerny didn't seem to go far enough to confirming that PS5 truly had hardware ray tracing support.

His exact quote was " "There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware," he says, "which I believe is the statement that people were looking for."

Ray Tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware can mean they're accelerating software solutions using shaders. Why till this point can't he actually go into a little detail about an advanced graphics or lighting specific example of how ray tracing will be used on PS5? It seems to me like there is less confidence on this particular part of the PS5's hardware. I hope I'm wrong, but why would traditionally very detail oriented mark cerny NOT expand a little bit on the most talked about and wanted next gen feature? It is definitely real-time ray tracing lighting in our games. Unless the information we now have is old info, and there is a more advanced PS5 chip, I don't believe what Mark Cerny is saying about hardware ray tracing support on PS5. I fully believe it's a software solution or something they won't actually attempt in PS5 games until official information from Sony proves otherwise.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
I think MS is playing up things like Zen2, the SSD and RT simply because Sony did first. Follow the leader
Someone was always going to announce their console first. It just happened to be Sony.
And it is not at all insignificant that the two chips believed to be Xbox Series X and lockhart both showcase evidence of VRS as well as hardware ray tracing, but it's the one chip that was believed to be the PS5 this entire time that has no evidence of it. So we definitely need more info. I'm personally hoping the info is old, I don't believe it's wrong. I want PS5 to be more than just 9.2 teraflops, and I want to see what PS5 devs do with true hardware ray tracing support. If they don't have it will I give a damn? Nope, not really. I'll just move on, but since it isn't confirmed fully to not have it yet, I want PS5 to have it all.
If Mark Cerny states that they have hardware ray tracing, then we have to take his word for it. This thread has turned to shit because people want to put their own spin and reasoning to things, and they often do it in such a way that supports the platform they are backing.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,257
He used an audio example, not a lighting or graphics example in the wired article for ray tracing support on PS5. Then when pressed to clarify what ray tracing means for PS5, the usually very detailed Cerny didn't seem to go far enough to confirming that PS5 truly had hardware ray tracing support.

His exact quote was " "There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware," he says, "which I believe is the statement that people were looking for."

Ray Tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware can mean they're accelerating software solutions using shaders. Why till this point can't he actually go into a little detail about an advanced graphics or lighting specific example of how ray tracing will be used on PS5? It seems to me like there is less confidence on this particular part of the PS5's hardware. I hope I'm wrong, but why would traditionally very detail oriented mark cerny NOT expand a little bit on the most talked about and wanted next gen feature? It is definitely real-time ray tracing lighting in our games. Unless the information we now have is old info, and there is a more advanced PS5 chip, I don't believe what Mark Cerny is saying about hardware ray tracing support on PS5. I fully believe it's a software solution or something they won't actually attempt in PS5 games until official information from Sony proves otherwise.
This is nonsense.

Cerny's statement is pretty clear. It's ray-tracing hardware. Almost certainly AMD's implementation.
Also, Matt already said that it does include RT HW.

So why are we doing this, again?
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
He used an audio example, not a lighting or graphics example in the wired article for ray tracing support on PS5. Then when pressed to clarify what ray tracing means for PS5, the usually very detailed Cerny didn't seem to go far enough to confirming that PS5 truly had hardware ray tracing support.

His exact quote was " "There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware," he says, "which I believe is the statement that people were looking for."

Ray Tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware can mean they're accelerating software solutions using shaders. Why till this point can't he actually go into a little detail about an advanced graphics or lighting specific example of how ray tracing will be used on PS5? It seems to me like there is less confidence on this particular part of the PS5's hardware. I hope I'm wrong, but why would traditionally very detail oriented mark cerny NOT expand a little bit on the most talked about and wanted next gen feature? It is definitely real-time ray tracing lighting in our games. Unless the information we now have is old info, and there is a more advanced PS5 chip, I don't believe what Mark Cerny is saying about hardware ray tracing support on PS5. I fully believe it's a software solution or something they won't actually attempt in PS5 games until official information from Sony proves otherwise.
What the hell is there to expand upon? Do you want a 2000 words article explaining how they do their RT?
 

senjutsusage

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
274
Someone was always going to announce their console first. It just happened to be Sony.
If Mark Cerny states that they have hardware ray tracing, then we have to take his word for it. This thread has turned to shit because people want to put their own spin and reasoning to things, and they often do it in such a way that supports the platform they are backing.

I take his word for it. I respect the man, but I will say I have serious doubts after recently learned information, and I hope Sony puts those doubts to rest when they reveal ps5 properly. If it doesn't have it, will I give a damn? Not really, I'll express disappointment and then immediately move on with excitement for what I know will be some of the most amazing looking games next gen regardless from Sony's first parties. I'm just at the greedy gamer that wants it all phase of this process. Once I realize I'm definitely not getting something, I just drop it and move on.
 

sleepr

Banned for misusing pronouns feature
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,965
He used an audio example, not a lighting or graphics example in the wired article for ray tracing support on PS5. Then when pressed to clarify what ray tracing means for PS5, the usually very detailed Cerny didn't seem to go far enough to confirming that PS5 truly had hardware ray tracing support.

His exact quote was " "There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware," he says, "which I believe is the statement that people were looking for."

The guy that did the interview said that they spent most of the time talking about graphics when talking about ray tracing. Matt also said it's hardware RT, at this point you're just making shit up.
 

ImaginaShawn

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,532
Someone was always going to announce their console first. It just happened to be Sony.
If Mark Cerny states that they have hardware ray tracing, then we have to take his word for it. This thread has turned to shit because people want to put their own spin and reasoning to things, and they often do it in such a way that supports the platform they are backing.
ray-tracing acceleration != Hardware Raytracing
 

Dekim

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,301
Those compute units for Oberon/Ariel isn't new info. I specifically remember people in this thread speculating about the 40 compute unit limit on Oberon/Ariel all this year.
 

isahn

Member
Nov 15, 2017
990
Roma
So...

- Spencer writes a text on the Xbox website saying that the X Series has 12TF rDNA = Real
- Cerny confirms in a newspaper that the PS5 has HW RT = False

Is this it or am I reading something wrong?
if you have a preference of sort there will be always confirmation bias. Your post here is no exception
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,141
That was prior to the reveal of RT in RDNA 2.0 and confirmation of hardware RT in PS5.

Well we now have people saying the GPU don't have hardware RT or it somehow different like they using there own thing .
Which make no sense but here we are.
So i just want some info but i did some research and what they doing won't make sense with info we have now and how Cerny does things.
 
Dec 8, 2018
1,911
He used an audio example, not a lighting or graphics example in the wired article for ray tracing support on PS5. Then when pressed to clarify what ray tracing means for PS5, the usually very detailed Cerny didn't seem to go far enough to confirming that PS5 truly had hardware ray tracing support.

His exact quote was " "There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware," he says, "which I believe is the statement that people were looking for."

Ray Tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware can mean they're accelerating software solutions using shaders. Why till this point can't he actually go into a little detail about an advanced graphics or lighting specific example of how ray tracing will be used on PS5? It seems to me like there is less confidence on this particular part of the PS5's hardware. I hope I'm wrong, but why would traditionally very detail oriented mark cerny NOT expand a little bit on the most talked about and wanted next gen feature? It is definitely real-time ray tracing lighting in our games. Unless the information we now have is old info, and there is a more advanced PS5 chip, I don't believe what Mark Cerny is saying about hardware ray tracing support on PS5. I fully believe it's a software solution or something they won't actually attempt in PS5 games until official information from Sony proves otherwise.

What do you want him to tell you about ray tracing? That it traces light? It's so bizarre to even ask the question "how will the PS5 use ray tracing"? It will use it to provide a better lighting solution than we had earlier is that what you want him to explain to you?
 
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