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androvsky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,500
https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2019/12/12/microsoft-unveils-xbox-series-x/
"Powered by our custom-designed processor leveraging the latest Zen 2 and next generation RDNA architecture from our partners at AMD, Xbox Series X will deliver hardware accelerated ray tracing and a new level of performance never before seen in a console"
That says it's RDNA, which no one's disputing. The question is, how many TF is it?

A 12 TF RDNA GPU is notably faster than twice as fast as the One X's GPU. So the question is if the Series X is a 12 TF RDNA GPU and MS doesn't want to be precise about the performance metric (it's not three times faster afaik, so saying 2x is reasonable), or it's closer to 9 TF RDNA and a bunch of journalists are getting confused about GCN vs RDNA.

Either way is pretty plausible to me. It's better than this "raytracing acceleration in the GPU" doesn't mean hardware raytracing or it's not in the GPU nonsense we're dealing with.

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2019/12/12/microsoft-unveils-xbox-series-x/
"Powered by our custom-designed processor leveraging the latest Zen 2 and next generation RDNA architecture from our partners at AMD, Xbox Series X will deliver hardware accelerated ray tracing and a new level of performance never before seen in a console"

Don't worry, I'll keep at it. Take a break.
I'll tag you in :)
 
Aug 26, 2019
6,342
So on the development side, different implementations of HW RT would make it difficult to get parity between 3rd party games, no? Could we possibly see better raytracing in one version?
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
So on the development side, different implementations of HW RT would make it difficult to get parity between 3rd party games, no? Could we possibly see better raytracing in one version?
In terms of API, people have already argued xsx will be stronger cause dxr. Sony has their own api. It's their job to make the tools as easy and efficient to use for the devs and we've heard good things. Assuming that's accurate, I wouldn't worry.
As for the hardware itself, the reddit thread paints a good picture for the second chip but hell if I know what it means in terms of performance.
 

Deleted member 57361

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 2, 2019
1,360
still. i have no idea why sony is going in this direction. at the end of the day, this other silicon will cost the same amount of money. why not match ms's 350mm2 apu with the same cu counts. its so bizarre, so over-engineered. but im no hardware engineer so maybe they saw some pros.
Saving money from hardware to invest more on their line-up? If something that Switch is proving is that power don't matter if you have exclusives to sell the console. Consumers won't care which one has more power. They'll care if the system has games they want to play.
 

Splader

Member
Feb 12, 2018
5,063
That says it's RDNA, which no one's disputing. The question is, how many TF is it?

A 12 TF RDNA GPU is notably faster than twice as fast as the One X's GPU. So the question is if the Series X is a 12 TF RDNA GPU and MS doesn't want to be precise about the performance metric (it's not three times faster afaik, so saying 2x is reasonable), or it's closer to 9 TF RDNA and a bunch of journalists are getting confused about GCN vs RDNA.

Either way is pretty plausible to me. It's better than this "raytracing acceleration in the GPU" doesn't mean hardware raytracing or it's not in the GPU nonsense we're dealing with.


I'll tag you in :)
This isn't the case at all though. You have loads of people in this thread arguing that they really mean GCN.
 
Jun 23, 2019
6,446
I'll give him benefit of the doubt, but based on all the info we have collectively, it really does sound like Microsoft may, at a minimum, possibly have a more advanced or specialized hardware solution direct from AMD for ray tracing. Taken together with AMD's press release on Xbox Series X along with Microsoft's own press release, along with Microsoft's constant message about hardware ray tracing, that's the impression I come away with.



https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2019/12/12/microsoft-unveils-xbox-series-x/

Sony hasn't come off quite as forthcoming in what they have on the hardware ray tracing front. I'm willing to believe Cerny when he says they have hardware ray tracing support, but it still seems as if we may not be getting the entire story. Is there any other example besides the one that people point to where Sony has talked about ray tracing? For example, in the wired article the only example cerny gives is one involving audio, nothing visual about lighting effects. In fact, his answers so far on hardware ray tracing come off a little evasive if I'm being honest. That isn't like Cerny who usually tends to go into detail about the kinds of things the hardware will be able to make possible, and he hasn't, not once, apparently gone into visual benefits of ray tracing? Only an audio example?

Take the observed confidence, for example, on their SSD solution, the same confidence cited by many users on this very forum as clear evidence that Sony must have a very advanced SSD solution (one that maybe tops what Microsoft has), and it is, quite frankly, night and day compared to what Sony has said about Ray Tracing, easily the most talked about and desired new feature in next gen consoles.

Either Sony has an entirely different hardware solution that isn't the same method AMD has gone with for RDNA2, something from an entirely different vendor, or they came up with their own hardware solution, or, the last option, they're doing ray tracing mostly via software and are just using parts of their GPU's non ray tracing specific components to help perform the operations, in other words the way you could always attempt ray tracing, but slower. You could always attempt ray tracing with existing hardware, it just wouldn't exactly produce results better than if you had specialized ray tracing hardware like what Nvidia has in their GPUs. It remains to be seen just how good AMD's ray tracing solution is also. It has to prove itself also.

Back to the possible software solution. There's a form of ray tracing even in Gears 5 currently (even on og Xbox One), as well as in some other titles. Same for VRS for example, I believe a COD title came up with their own software solution for that in their game engine, Infinite Warfare has it I think. So that time will come where Sony will get more specific about what they have going on. I highly doubt devs would waste resources on a possible slower software or shader based ray tracing solution, so this leads me to suspect that PS5, until Sony proves otherwise, possibly has no ray tracing hardware support, and will instead just blow our minds with what they can do on significantly more powerful hardware, the way their first parties always do.

I'm hoping the information dug up is outdated and not representative of the true final PS5 chip, but if this is the real thing, it's a safe bet it's not quite as advanced as the xbox series x chip. I do not believe Cerny's statements on ray tracing hardware support up to this point have been as definitive as they could have been, knowing his reputation for going into detail. He would have detailed examples by now. Why demo the SSD load, but not demo the most talked about next gen feature? Spider-Man with ray traced lighting active would have been a very nice thing to show off, and perhaps we'll get that or another title at the proper PS5 reveal.
tenor.gif


Yeah, I'm done man. Not even trying to hide it anymore.
 
Aug 26, 2019
6,342
People have already argued xsx will be stronger cause dxr. Sony has their own api. It's their job to make the tools as easy and efficient to use for the devs and we've heard good things. Assuming that's accurate, I wouldn't worry.
Yeah assuming that really was RT in Godfall gameplay gif and not just SSR then we should be good if even a small launch game like that has it.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,084
"There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware" still seems pretty self-explanatory to me, Cerny didn't seem to be mincing words.

Yet we've already had one headline about the PS5 using non-AMD ray-tracing, and speculation in here about off-die RT hardware, so others must feel there is wiggle-room in what Cerny said.

Well then the same can be said for MS but i don't see anyone doing it for them .
It's the same words "Xbox Series X will deliver hardware accelerated ray tracing "
 

androvsky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,500
This isn't the case at all though. You have loads of people in this thread arguing that they really mean GCN.
I've been reading it as a shorthand of GCN flops equivalent in RDNA, lord help us all if they're really saying the Series X is on a GCN architecture since it obviously isn't. I haven't seen anyone be specific about the Series X having a GCN GPU, but the way this thread is I know I've missed a fair chunk of posts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,444
Underground
"There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware" still seems pretty self-explanatory to me, Cerny didn't seem to be mincing words.

Yet we've already had one headline about the PS5 using non-AMD ray-tracing, and speculation in here about off-die RT hardware, so others must feel there is wiggle-room in what Cerny said.
Yeah, to me what he's saying in that quote is as clear as day. PS5 will 100% have RT hardware acceleration in the GPU.

As for it being a non-AMD solution or a co-processor, we'll see, though I highly doubt it.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
So on the development side, different implementations of HW RT would make it difficult to get parity between 3rd party games, no? Could we possibly see better raytracing in one version?
it will be impossible to tell unless we see games running on both systems.

amd's patent suggests that their rt cores are embedded in the texture mapping units. we dont know how many TMUs they will include along with shader processors. there are 160 TMUs in the 5700xt, 144 in 5700 (oberon) and only 88 in the 5500 which should be the lockhart. they seem to scale up with the CUs so the 5800xt or the anaconda will have close to 200.

we simply dont know how good sony's solution will be. but if its a separate die then maybe we are looking at dedicated rt cores like what nvidia has. doesnt mean it will be better but we simply dont know.

rule of thumb, whoever has the most tflops will have the better graphics. im sure that means better ray tracing too.

Saving money from hardware to invest more on their line-up? If something that Switch is proving is that power don't matter if you have exclusives to sell the console. Consumers won't care which one has more power. They'll care if the system has games they want to play.

yeah, no. call me a skeptic liberal, but i dont believe corporations cut costs to give us more for less. they do it to give themselves bigger bonuses. sony made billions in profit this gen and shutdown several studios. they acquired a total of one new studio this gen. the number of aaa first party games have gone down drastically this gen. you could argue they are putting quantity over quality, but they are making so much money they shouldve maintained quantity while increasing quality.

and nintendo is a really bad example because their base simply doesnt care about graphics. playstation fans simply expect more. if not the best hardware from sony.
 
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PrimeRib

Member
Nov 16, 2017
261
I'd see the sense behind the 9TF PS5 if it launched in 2019 as was rumored but competing head to head with Microsoft in 2020 it doesn't. It's very clear Sony had to go back to the drawing board once 2019 launch was kaput and beef up the internals a bit to better compete. Anyone who truly thinks Sony is coming to market the PS5 with a 9TF console against the Series X 12TF is not thinking things through. The full story is still being written.
 

jbug617

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,898
sorry if this has been answered but has Sony done any vague comparison for PS4 to PS5? Like how Xbox did a vague comparison for XB1X to Series X?
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,084
it will be impossible to tell unless we see games running on both systems.

amd's patent suggests that their rt cores are embedded in the texture mapping units. we dont know how many TMUs they will include along with shader processors. there are 160 TMUs in the 5700xt, 144 in 5700 (oberon) and only 88 in the 5500 which should be the lockhart. they seem to scale up with the CUs so the 5800xt or the anaconda will have close to 200.

we simply dont know how good sony's solution will be. but if its a separate die then maybe we are looking at dedicated rt cores like what nvidia has. doesnt mean it will be better but we simply dont know.

rule of thumb, whoever has the most tflops will have the better graphics. im sure that means better ray tracing too.

There is no Sony solution.
That patent was also from AMD that people want to use now.
In fact when it come to MS and Sony they have said the same thing about RT that it hardware base.

EDIT some more info
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2018/0144435.html what some people want to use.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2019/0197761.html this AMD new patent and filing data was 2017 .
If the filing date was in 2017 that is more that enough time for Sony to know what AMD was doing RT wise.
 
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Deusmico

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,254
I'd see the sense behind the 9TF PS5 if it launched in 2019 as was rumored but competing head to head with Microsoft in 2020 it doesn't. It's very clear Sony had to go back to the drawing board once 2019 launch was kaput and beef up the internals a bit to better compete. Anyone who truly thinks Sony is coming to market the PS5 with a 9TF console against the Series X 12TF is not thinking things through. The full story is still being written.

maybe it was 8tf for 2019, and the improvement is 9
 

BobLoblaw

This Guy Helps
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,288
I'm gonna need Digital Foundry to explain all this shit to me stat. I'm not buying either, but console wars are fascinating.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,444
Underground
I'd see the sense behind the 9TF PS5 if it launched in 2019 as was rumored but competing head to head with Microsoft in 2020 it doesn't. It's very clear Sony had to go back to the drawing board once 2019 launch was kaput and beef up the internals a bit to better compete. Anyone who truly thinks Sony is coming to market the PS5 with a 9TF console against the Series X 12TF is not thinking things through. The full story is still being written.
It makes sense if they are dead set on $399 and if they didn't want to take a bigger loss on the hardware than they would by launching a year later. That said, I'm not entirely convinced PS5 will actually be 9TF, but I'm also not ruling it out.
 
Dec 8, 2018
1,911
This isn't the case at all though. You have loads of people in this thread arguing that they really mean GCN.

I actually think no one is claiming it not to be rDNA architecture in the XsX but when Phil said twice the performance (not flops or anything specific) of the XbX people believe he uses the "performance" of twice the XbX which is roughly 12TF but since rDNA "performance" is 1.25 of GCN it actually mean a rDNA gpu with about 9.6TF that is "performing" as a 12TF GCN GPU.

The real "performance" of a 12+ rDNA GPU would be closer to 3 times as powerful and a minimum of 2.5 times the XbX and while two is a nice number having how much they want to make this console really sound like it's powerful in mind not saying two and a half times as powerful does strike me as a bit odd and see no actual reason why not do it.

I don't personally know what to believe and most certainly want the 12TF rDNA performance and not some GCN to rDNA marketing bullshit.
 

Crazy_KiD_169

Member
Jun 21, 2018
293
Someone was always going to announce their console first. It just happened to be Sony.
If Mark Cerny states that they have hardware ray tracing, then we have to take his word for it. This thread has turned to shit because people want to put their own spin and reasoning to things, and they often do it in such a way that supports the platform they are backing.

exactly it's so obvious even based off official information. how sad is that, this thread goes in circles because there always someone downing playing either console.🤦🏽‍♂️
 

PrimeRib

Member
Nov 16, 2017
261
maybe it was 8tf for 2019, and the improvement is 9
It makes sense if they are dead set on $399 and if they didn't want to take a bigger loss on the hardware than they would by launching a year later. That said, I'm not entirely convinced PS5 will actually be 9TF, but I'm also not ruling it out.

Think about this. Putting up a 9TF box to compete against Microsoft 12TF box. Some differences with internals (SSD) but with lower CPU clock speeds and 3TF less, aka, a lesser box. There's no way that situation plays out where Sony can confidently believe they can maintain/grow market share. They will not do this.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,246
I actually think no one is claiming it not to be rDNA architecture in the XsX but when Phil said twice the performance (not flops or anything specific) of the XbX people believe he uses the "performance" of twice the XbX which is roughly 12TF but since rDNA "performance" is 1.25 of GCN it actually mean a rDNA gpu with about 9.6TF that is "performing" as a 12TF GCN GPU.

The real "performance" of a 12+ rDNA GPU would be closer to 3 times as powerful and a minimum of 2.5 times the XbX and while two is a nice number having how much they want to make this console really sound like it's powerful in mind not saying two and a half times as powerful does strike me as a bit odd and see no actual reason why not do it.

I don't personally know what to believe and most certainly want the 12TF rDNA performance and not some GCN to rDNA marketing bullshit.

Nicely put.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5,331
Ok just no knowledge
As I said, just common sense.

How was Sony going to emulate Cell using Jaguar cores?
They did not bother. Microsoft spent the better part of this generation working up BC catalogue. Common dictates that they may actually be good at it just because they spend time and money working on it. And that they have applied what they have learnt into their next project.

This might be the main reason you see Sony guaranteeing BC with the current gen.

Common sense!
 

Deleted member 45460

User requested account closure
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Jun 27, 2018
1,492
I actually think no one is claiming it not to be rDNA architecture in the XsX but when Phil said twice the performance (not flops or anything specific) of the XbX people believe he uses the "performance" of twice the XbX which is roughly 12TF but since rDNA "performance" is 1.25 of GCN it actually mean a rDNA gpu with about 9.6TF that is "performing" as a 12TF GCN GPU.

The real "performance" of a 12+ rDNA GPU would be closer to 3 times as powerful and a minimum of 2.5 times the XbX and while two is a nice number having how much they want to make this console really sound like it's powerful in mind not saying two and a half times as powerful does strike me as a bit odd and see no actual reason why not do it.

I don't personally know what to believe and most certainly want the 12TF rDNA performance and not some GCN to rDNA marketing bullshit.
The numbers are 6 and 12, to the average consumer that is twice as much. Breaking down GCN vs RDNA is something for tech heads. It's basic marketing, keep it simple. They pushed the 6 tflops number before, the new system is 12 so they say "twice as powerful" because the mass market will understand that.
 

sncvsrtoip

Banned
Apr 18, 2019
2,773
As I said, just common sense.

How was Sony going to emulate Cell using Jaguar cores?
They did not bother. Microsoft spent the better part of this generation working up BC catalogue. Common dictates that they may actually be good at it just because they spend time and money working on it. And that they have applied what they have learnt into their next project.

This might be the main reason you see Sony guaranteeing BC with the current gen.

Common sense!
As rumors says sony had problem even with bc with ps4 and dx was in past years high abstraction (they try to change it with dx12 I'm not game developer so don't know if they suceed) that works on completely different architecures from nvidia and amd on playstation there was always low level api
 

bsigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,537
I actually think no one is claiming it not to be rDNA architecture in the XsX but when Phil said twice the performance (not flops or anything specific) of the XbX people believe he uses the "performance" of twice the XbX which is roughly 12TF but since rDNA "performance" is 1.25 of GCN it actually mean a rDNA gpu with about 9.6TF that is "performing" as a 12TF GCN GPU.

The real "performance" of a 12+ rDNA GPU would be closer to 3 times as powerful and a minimum of 2.5 times the XbX and while two is a nice number having how much they want to make this console really sound like it's powerful in mind not saying two and a half times as powerful does strike me as a bit odd and see no actual reason why not do it.

I don't personally know what to believe and most certainly want the 12TF rDNA performance and not some GCN to rDNA marketing bullshit.

The GCN to rdna stuff is a product of this thread. We know they're using an rdna based GPU and multiple insiders have heard they are aiming for 12tf in GPU performance. Until we see what AMD has at CES in a few weeks, at Hotchips later this year, and ultimately a full hardware deep dive which I assume MS is lining up a partner to do again like they did with the Xbox One X, we won't have anything concrete to go on.
 

Deleted member 19767

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Oct 27, 2017
2,098
The numbers are 6 and 12, to the average consumer that is twice as much. Breaking down GCN vs RDNA is something for tech heads.

From a marketing perspective, it doesn't look like Microsoft (and likely Sony) will be playing the Teraflops game. So if Microsoft can accurately say 2x performance, there's no reason they'll get into GCN/RDNA or even exact Teraflop figures for the purpose of marketing and PR.

I'm not trying too downplay the Series X. I think the 4tf Lockhart rumour is a serious spanner in the GCN/RDNA comparison. However I think it's worth noting that it's more likely than ever that both MS and Sony just avoid talking actual performance numbers and instead focus on the multipliers from last gen. Still accurate. Much easier to explain.
 

sleepr

Banned for misusing pronouns feature
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,965
People are using the inside info given to put 2 and 2 together.

Insiders have stated that both consoles are close in power. A 3TF gap is not what I consider close at all.

Suddenly insiders aren't useful anymore (to some people).

Jason said both are above 10.75 TF and we're getting very powerful machines.
Matt said they're pretty much the same.
Klee said the same thing as Matt.
Shinobi also hinted that both are very powerful.

But hey, let's keep rolling with the 9.2 TF PS5 vs 12 TF XSX if it makes some people happy.
 

senjutsusage

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
274
lol, you're really reaching there bud and it's not a good look to be honest.

1. Cerny confirmed hardware raytracing built into the GPU. If you believe otherwise you're calling him a liar

2. Insiders like Matt and Klee have confirmed RT hardware

3. Godfall shows evidence of RT based on the small GIF we've got and the in-engine teaser

4. Other Sony devs like Polyphony have been working on RT for years now. It makes absolutely no sense for them to be doing that if there's no hardware that will support it.

5. After the first Wired article a Naughty Dog dev proclaimed it was hardware raytracing on Twitter before having to quickly walk that statement back because that was not information Sony had publicly discussed yet. If any team at Sony knows about the PS5's capability it's Naughty Dog.


That's just a few points off the top of my head, I'm sure there are plenty more pieces of evidence that others could cite. So yeah, it's got hardware RT.

So we will see. But I don't put what insiders have said above what is in official AMD driver information about what those same insiders and others more credible have said is the PS5 chip. It seems now that information has come out undermining what many (myself included) wanted to believe about PS5, we are now discrediting everything you guys have literally been going off of regarding PS5 this whole time. Do you realize that's what's taking place here and now? Godfall isn't release, and we don't know if it's running on PS5 hardware.

As for Godfall, is there any statement from either the dev or sony themselves saying that game will be using ray tracing on PS5? I didn't see it in the official statements, but to be fair, neither has Microsoft said anything of the sort about their announced next gen xbox titles either. So I'm not trying to troll here, I'm just saying I trust this official AMD driver information more than the insiders here. I just hope it's old because I believed and wanted PS5 to be more than this. If it isn't, I'll move on and not care and still support PS5.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,084
As I said, just common sense.

How was Sony going to emulate Cell using Jaguar cores?
They did not bother. Microsoft spent the better part of this generation working up BC catalogue. Common dictates that they may actually be good at it just because they spend time and money working on it. And that they have applied what they have learnt into their next project.

This might be the main reason you see Sony guaranteeing BC with the current gen.

Common sense!

He is not talking about BC but API tools\software which something different.
Not saying he is right but there are different.
 

Kschreck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,065
Pennsylvania
I wish Microsoft and Sony would have held off even announcing next gen consoles. Now we have a whole lot of impartial information, rumors, etc which is causing a lot of disinformation and anger among a lot of people. The constant waiting sucks because companies gave us like 50% of the information and won't budge on the rest. Driving a lot of folks nuts. Myself included.

Maybe that was the intent. To really drive the hype around these systems but man it will suck if these consoles are no where near the leap we all want them to be. One day 12tf, another day 14tf the next day 8tf. Been like this for more then half a year now. This sucks!
 

Deleted member 19767

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
2,098
So we will see. But I don't put what insiders have said above what is in official AMD driver information about what those same insiders and others more credible have said is the PS5 chip. It seems now that information has come out undermining what many (myself included) wanted to believe about PS5, we are now discrediting everything you guys have literally been going off of regarding PS5 this whole time. Do you realize that's what's taking place here and now? Godfall isn't release, and we don't know if it's running on PS5 hardware.

As for Godfall, is there any statement from either the dev or sony themselves saying that game will be using ray tracing on PS5? I didn't see it in the official statements, but to be fair, neither has Microsoft said anything of the sort about their announced next gen xbox titles either. So I'm not trying to troll here, I'm just saying I trust this official AMD driver information more than the insiders here. I just hope it's old because I believed and wanted PS5 to be more than this. If it isn't, I'll move on and not care and still support PS5.

Why does the font in your post change mid way through?
 
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