Umm I'm having a hard time believing there would a confusion of terms between console models from different companies in a document like this. Seems strange
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower (See Staff Post)
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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because going with 36 cus when ms is going with big navi makes no sense other than to save costs.
because panello called a $399 8 tflops console years ago.
because the reddit leak in jan that called lockhart and anaconda also called a $399 8 tflops ps5
ignore all that. redgamingtech had it wrong. the oberon hes talking about is still 36 cu at 2.0ghz. 9 tflops.
yep. simply doesnt make sense why they would stop at 36 cus all of a sudden. hell, they couldve done that with the pro. make an 18 cu gpu with 1.6 ghz and have double the tflops. save on apu size and cost. but they didnt. so why change now?
maybe their cooling solution isnt as expensive as vapor chamber cooling, and they are only upping the clocks late in the gen as a hail mary attempt to cut the gap between series x and ps5. they have found themselves in a pickle and its too late for any major hardware revisions so boosting clocks to 2.0 ghz is their only option. its not that they wanted to go narrow and fast, its just they have no other choice now that ms has forced their hand.
edit: it seems oberon is the gpu part. that means the 300 mm2 figure includes ray traced hardware like cerny said. this would be bigger than the gpu in the ps4 or the pro. it seems ms is simply going with something massive and extremely expensive. their apu might very well be over 400mm2. where as sony would also come around 350mm2.
so they both went wide and slow. its just that ms went with a more expensive chip.
It was a test result compilation by an intern. Not that high value.
Some are running with a chip even though it clearly doesn't have onboard RT.
Surely Sony isn't making any reactionary moves to what MS is doing.
They should have known that they were going to have a chip roughly the same size as the X1X, going wide and slow.
I just refuse to believe that Sony would be blindsided in any way and their reactionary move is to increase the clocks, knowing full well how power inefficient that is.
did you see my edit:
edit: it seems oberon is the gpu part. that means the 300 mm2 figure includes ray traced hardware like cerny said. this would be bigger than the gpu in the ps4 or the pro. it seems ms is simply going with something massive and extremely expensive. their apu might very well be over 400mm2. where as sony would also come around 350mm2.
so they both went wide and slow. its just that ms went with a more expensive chip.
FUCK, i dont like this development. Sigh this what i get for getting my emotion swept up should have more conservative from the beginning and kept my expectations in the check. no one is to blame but me lol. When you think about ms did the same thing with their pro consoles. Scorpio was stronger than ps4 pro and had vamper chamber cooling. Looks like ms is doing the same thing this gen lol. such a shame, wanted both consoles to be on the same lvl
I think Sony releasing a 9-10 tf 400$ console is their best option unless they are gunna do 2 consoles.
If they are 500$ and equal to xsx than that's great on the premium customer end. But they have the potential to loose a lot of ground to a 300$ Xbox that plays the same next gen games.
If they release at 400$ they are close enough in power that they won't loose to many customers who want the premium experience and also close enough to Lockhart that they wouldn't loose an overwhelming amount of sales to the casuals.
If they are 500$ and equal to xsx than that's great on the premium customer end. But they have the potential to loose a lot of ground to a 300$ Xbox that plays the same next gen games.
If they release at 400$ they are close enough in power that they won't loose to many customers who want the premium experience and also close enough to Lockhart that they wouldn't loose an overwhelming amount of sales to the casuals.
This is true... And also why the real battle will be between ps5 and series s
Series S will be 6tf and at least $l00 cheaper than the 8tf ps5
did you see my edit:
edit: it seems oberon is the gpu part. that means the 300 mm2 figure includes ray traced hardware like cerny said. this would be bigger than the gpu in the ps4 or the pro. it seems ms is simply going with something massive and extremely expensive. their apu might very well be over 400mm2. where as sony would also come around 350mm2.
so they both went wide and slow. its just that ms went with a more expensive chip.
Base PS4 is 328 mm2. Pro is around the same size.
Why is PS5 10% less?
I think this all depends on how aggressive Microsoft treats Series S. I can see Microsoft willing to make more of a loss on Lockhart (Series S) than Series X So maybe $250 - $299. This will be for the casuals and to get Game Pass subscribers.
But the fight for the new generation casual gamers will be tough, especially in a Subscription Gaming era.
It'd be extremely disappointing if any of the console makers aimed at a $399 console.
This isn't 2013 when flagship phones still cost $699. People are used to paying more for quality tech.
$499 is the sweet spot, and consumers WILL pay for that. The tech needs to be very competitive with the PC space and be future proofed for a while to come.
This isn't 2013 when flagship phones still cost $699. People are used to paying more for quality tech.
$499 is the sweet spot, and consumers WILL pay for that. The tech needs to be very competitive with the PC space and be future proofed for a while to come.
If sony just releases one console it WILL be between xb series x and s in both price and power
and they will probably release one console only
Xb series X - 4tf and 350$
Ps5 - 9tf and 400$
Xb series S - 12tf and 500$
Seems like good strategies for both Sony and MS imo. MS will get the really hardcore with this strategy and the jury is out on who gets the mainstream... but sony can release a 15tf ps5pro 2 years after or so
and they will probably release one console only
Xb series X - 4tf and 350$
Ps5 - 9tf and 400$
Xb series S - 12tf and 500$
Seems like good strategies for both Sony and MS imo. MS will get the really hardcore with this strategy and the jury is out on who gets the mainstream... but sony can release a 15tf ps5pro 2 years after or so
Nvidia has dedicated RT cores on their GPUs. AMDs solution is different in the sense that they are gonna utilize the computing power which means adding more CUs. Thing is, all of those will take space on a die which increases their form factor. Which in addition requires better cooling to dissipate the heat. The 9.2TF leak has just 36CUs, but additionally it doesn't mention RT at all. Which contradicts Cernys statement in October, it's bit of a mess. Some things add up, yet others don't.
There has been plenty of talk in last 24 hours of Sony going with a different RT tech, but that again is up in the air. We don't know how that's gonna compare to other RT technology at launch in 1 years time. A smaller silicon isn't gonna magically have better RT capabilities compared to more powerful/bigger ones. If Sony are down in power, then there is a likelihood their RT tech isn't gonna match up to the competition either.
This is hard to rebut because of contradictory information out there but I'm only speculating what if Cerny/team prioritized other tech over GPU such as SSD/VRS/RT which pushes the cost up. Hence, the talk of PS5 being a premium product and missing the $399 launch price.
Its all a big mess, to me it doesn't make sense. PS4 Pro was likely being designed somewhere around 2014/2015, who in the world thought it was a great idea to stick with same amount of CUs as mid-gen refresh of a previous gen console? Besides, Pro had a die size of 325mm2 compared to 350mm2 of PS4. Why go even smaller when there is bunch of new shit to be added in form of RT hardware? And your main competition already went large with their mid-gen refresh and would likely go big again?
Even then, we should've heard rumors about disparity between the two like we did back in 2013. Instead, its been polar opposite with everyone telling us how its basically a wash between the two.
I get that but this is the first instance we've heard about native CU count on PS5, and its been rumored to be in 36-40 CUs territory according to rumored benchmarks. [9.2-10.4 TF]
if both oberon and Arden are gpus then ms might be going with a $599 console.
A 300 mm2 gpu with a 40 mm2 cpu and around 20-30 mm2 for i/o stuff would be bigger than the x1x chip. Sony was probably aiming for $499 with that chip. Ms is likely easily over 400 mm2 which explains such a drastic design.
It seems to me that rt makes the chip around 50 mm2 bigger than the 5700xt. So it seems amd gave Sony no real shot at hitting over 10 tflops.
Of course this is assuming oberon is a 7nm gpu only part and not an apu.
I dont understand how this is possible when it was mentioned by amd that sony helped or worked with on creating navi?
The funny think, is that they could pick a navi rdna2 chip from amd next year that whould be better then that.
Base ps4 uses a 212 mm2 hd 7870. The rest is the jaguar cpu and i/o stuff linking the ram, gpu and cpu together.
Pro uses a 232mm2 gpu. Its apu is smaller because jaguar cores remained the same.
If oberon is a gpu part it is 300mm2 on its own. The apu size will be much bigger.
Again, if oberon is a gpu. We need to figure out if its an apu. I agree an apu that size makes no sense.
None of this matches with any of the leaks from Reiner, Klee or Moriarty, or the general vibe of both consoles being very close. Something is fishy.
Also 300mm2 for simply a GPU would surely be more than 40/36CU. If that is the case then the XSX APU is like 450mm2 which seems pretty unlikely.
A lot of conflicting info running around...
Also 300mm2 for simply a GPU would surely be more than 40/36CU. If that is the case then the XSX APU is like 450mm2 which seems pretty unlikely.
A lot of conflicting info running around...
Its because they switched architectures. The gpu did get bigger even if the cu counts remained the same. A 9 tflops Navi performs like a 12 tflops Polaris. So its not like amd fucked them or anything. Its the best they can do on 7nm.at $499 with rt cores. If it wasn't for rt, you could have more CUs and more tflops.
Ms is simply paying more. A whole lot more. I think Lockhart might be $399. Ps5 &449 ir $499 and series x $549-599.
It being a GPU would make much more sense than APU .
The current Navi GPUs that out are 251 mm it would be impossible for a APU to be 300mm even if you take away 4 of those CUs.
I agree it doesn't match up but if what modiz found is true than oberon has hardware rt and vrs. Surely those rdna 2.0 features might push a 40 cu oberon to 300mm2.
!!!
Ariel_BC1: 217.6 GB/s
Ariel_BC2: 176 GB/s
Yeah, this is it.No doubt anymore.Ariel is a GPU part of Oberon/PS5
cc: BitsandBytes , Colbert
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Agreed. Unless its a 7nm+ apu, you simply cannot fit a 40 mm2 zen 2, i/o and hardware rt in a 300 mm2 apu.
300mm2 gpu means Sony did the best they could in the $499 budget they had. Still doesn't line up with klee, Jason and reiner.
We are still missing something.
If the XSX die size is a huge as it would need to be to hit 12TF given this info I highly doubt it will be coming in at $500. We're talking like 450mm2+ Has there ever been an APU that size? What are yields going to be like on such a gargantuan chip?
a 300mm2 GPU would still put the PS5 in the 350-400mm2 total APU size with IO and a 40mm2+ Zen 2 added.
So if this stuff is true, then how are MS hitting 12 RDNA TF?
Nope.
PS5 development began in 2015, but whatever spec they had come up with by 2017, for the rumored 2019 release, would not have to be the same spec they'll have for PS5 in 2020.
I agree that it can't be $499. I speculated$549-599.
That said, series x is supposedly 7nm+ so it shouldnt be over 400mm2.
Theoretically, how many CUs you can fit in a 300mm2 die only reserved for GPU. Both in 7nm and 7nm+?
We've got dynamic capes in Anthem and stuff. Look at how stiff that characters pants are.
Unfortunately with 2k, that gif is from nba 2K14 and the visuals have only gotten worse with each subsequent entry.
I'm hoping we might see stuff where the clothes and crumple and fold in gameplay like in those classic KoF or Third Strike animations.
We havent' gotten close to this in 3D videogames yet.
You aren't going to see anything like that bottom example, in real-time, in games anytime soon. Not to that level of detail anyway. Marvelous Designer, a piece of software used for creating clothing and simulating how the materials used in that clothing behave takes quite a system to calculate all that stuff. I imagine we will get more convincing animated normal/displacement maps and "canned" cloth animations derived from precalculated collisions on top of some improvements in real-time cloth physics but temper your expectations :)
Now that i think about it a 300mm GPU would be around 52CU unless it on 7+
That at 2Ghz also seem crazy lol
Either way these APU should be damn big if they going for high TF unless they clock really high .
If that is the case why wouldn't Sony just do that? You seem to be under the impression that those 100+ mil will just follow Sony no matter what. like blind fan people.
Wait wait wait...
Prospero, Ariel and Gonzalo are all characters in shakespeares play the tempest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tempest
Oberon and Flute are characters in his play A Midsummer Night's Dream
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream
And now the most important thing
ARDEN is using a quote of wikipedia:
The Arden Shakespeare is a long-running series of scholarly editions of the works of William Shakespeare
Arden is the complete work including both of these plays...
Could Arden be the completed PS5 and the other "parts" of it?
Sparkman is basically the only name without any reference to Shakespeare could this be XsX?
Am I insane?
Prospero, Ariel and Gonzalo are all characters in shakespeares play the tempest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tempest
Oberon and Flute are characters in his play A Midsummer Night's Dream
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream
And now the most important thing
ARDEN is using a quote of wikipedia:
The Arden Shakespeare is a long-running series of scholarly editions of the works of William Shakespeare
Arden is the complete work including both of these plays...
Could Arden be the completed PS5 and the other "parts" of it?
Sparkman is basically the only name without any reference to Shakespeare could this be XsX?
Am I insane?
People here estimated around 6mm2 per dual cu. So 56 cu for 7nm. 64 7nm+
that is, if they don't have any extra rt hardware or need to add more work groups or whatever else they might need to scale up the number of cus.
No. You are not. This would explain what oberon files are doing in the Arden section in github.
So XSX is not 12 TF RDNA like some people were saying and both PS5 and XSX are in the 9 TF range, so much for 14 TF. lmao
I mean from what we know these APU in these systems going to be huge.
If the go slow and wide we looking at 400mm plus easy for 12 RDNA .
The more I read, the more I tend to believe my own fanfic about Sony going with double GPUs. Hilarious. Would it be more efficient yieldwise to combine two separate GPUs on one APU?
Well innovating on cooling systems and also increasing the size of the console is a good way to help get to 12 RDNA TF. The current Console design has constraint progress for a while and increasing TF in that form factor is not sustainable.
Curious on how Sony has designed PS5. Is it in a Console form factor hence its rumoured 9.2TF or is it in a Mini PC tower like the Series X?
If it's anything like the current gen, that approach still leaves 80% of the console population on relatively weak hardware.
It not about the cooling only but about the APU die size .
Depending on the clock speed we are talking about some huge ass APU chips .
It's a strategy that's worked thus far, enthusiasts will buy
If Microsoft really do release a 12tf monster then Sony will have to be looking at a quicker release of their ps5 pro
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