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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower (See Staff Post)

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score01

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,298
What is the technical cock up causing issues with the PS5 APU?
IF 36CU is true then could it be something to do with baking in hardware for PSVR into the APU limiting their space? There have been rumours of this... it would be a monumental balls up if it were the case.

I’m keeping an open mind just now but if the final release is 36CU, the same as the PS4 Pro then Mark Cerny done goofed, big time!
 

Papacheeks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,559
Watertown, NY
Couple of things first the 10tf+ whas about flops so why all of a sudden would it be about SSD speeds?

But Sony's messaging has been about developing the PS5 for the hardcore and the price will reflect that. Second i wasn't talking about in comparison to XSX. It doesn't need to be 12tf to be for the hardcore? For me a 9.2tf 399 system is more of a casual/normal system not a hardcore system were they went beyond the expected.

PS5 PRo in 2/3 years as the same spec as the XSX is crazy....than they should at least go 15+ otherwise it's going to be seen as strange by the hardcore.
You keep saying hardcore, what you mean to say is Enthusiasts. That's what the XSX is. Lockhart is for the casual croud because of capabilities and more than likely what it will be priced at.

People buying these day one are hardcore/enthusiasts. PS5 if it;s going to be 9tf @ $399 is going to sell to others besides hardcore enthusiasts. You are right that right out of the gate with their wording for XSX that it's more for the hardcore crowd. And it's price will reflect that, just like xbox one x, and PS4PRO did.

I really don't know wtf your point is. If PS5 comes at 9tf and at $399 it's going to sell hotter than PS4, and it's not like it's going to be a gimped system.
 

gremlinz1982

Member
Aug 11, 2018
1,926
So why didn’t MS react with Xbox one’s launch and went for price parity with PS4? I just don’t see these things being as easy as going for what your competition is doing, also if MS launching with 2 SKUs then taking big losses on both doesn’t make sense, reminder that PS3 took over $200 on each console and ended the gen with billions in losses.
And what would happen to the Kinect units they had manufactured?

They also might have thought that Kinect's success was guaranteed.
 

More Butter

Member
Jun 12, 2018
1,241
Yeah, the point of a premium SKU is to run up margins, not take bigger losses.
The point of the premium SKU is the Halo effect. The point is to drive people to the platform and get them hooked in to Gamepass. The best possible box means your marketing footage looks amazing, streamers buy in, enthusiasts buy in etc. Then they can go win on affordability elsewhere. I don’t think Sony or MS are looking to take heavy losses on any of these machines but any margins will be thin even on the premium box.
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,364
IF 36CU is true then could it be something to do with baking in hardware for PSVR into the APU limiting their space? There have been rumours of this... it would be a monumental balls up if it were the case.

I’m keeping an open mind just now but if the final release is 36CU, the same as the PS4 Pro then Mark Cerny done goofed, big time!
The psvr hardware is the 3d audio chip that was inside the breakout box. That would be its own chip, not on the die.
 

Doctor Avatar

Member
Jan 10, 2019
886
IF 36CU is true then could it be something to do with baking in hardware for PSVR into the APU limiting their space? There have been rumours of this... it would be a monumental balls up if it were the case.

I’m keeping an open mind just now but if the final release is 36CU, the same as the PS4 Pro then Mark Cerny done goofed, big time!
Yep I totally agree. If XSX has 52-56CU as is looking likely and PS5 has 36 but has to essentially overclock them massively outside their perf/watt sweet spot to close the gap to a mere 30% then Mark Cerny has made a colossal balls up.

They'll be paying probably about the same for their chip as MS, but it will be 30% less powerful. That's a huge engineering fail right there.
 

c0de

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,887
I agree, if 36CU is correct then i also expect it in 8-9TF range.If dev kit runs at 2GHz that doesn’t mean retail PS5 will as well.

I can’t wait to see their cooling system! :)
Look at the current dev kit 😆
That doesn't look like a silent system, not to mention it's quite big, too.
 

Seshumaru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
588
The Netherlands
No prob. Well,the question is what PS system was for the hardcore? Their most successful console PS2 was weaker then both Xbox and GameCube.PS3? It was the latest tech,yeah,mighty and shiny but it was a financial disaster for Sony,it made billions of losses.I think they learned their lesson.
According to this article the PS5 is a niche product for the hardcore.

The PS2 was indeed weaker but when did it release compared to the others? It also was a far different time than we currently live in. If you would have told me that we would pay laptop prices for phones, or that we would have to pay for extra goodies/cosmetics in games, or that we would pay for online play i would call you crazy.

Your forgetting a couple of things about the PS3. First let's talk about what actually went on with the creation of the PS3.
The PS3 as a concept was not created for the hardcore but for 2 different reasons. Setting and selling blu ray and creating a new CPU for multiple different systems, TV's, Camera, Phones and other random equipment. The reason why the PS3 stumbled is because it had nothing to do with gaming and both of their goals were hampering with price and being able to deliver(blu-ray diodes and a compelling price on cell) on both fronts. The cell and blu-ray caused massive damage to PS3 and Sony and not because they wanted to create the best system for games.

The lesson they should have learned is don't try to use Playstation to sell things and experiment so much that you lose 300$ on every console sold. The PS4 should have learned them that the combination between power, games, services and ease of use (for developers) is that a desirable product sales.
 
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Kage Maru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,790
Then have PS5PRO in 2-3 years that's around 12-14tf for $499 or higher. Makes sense to me, too much sense.
Considering how die shrinks are slowing down, I would expect a Pro console from either company in a few years. We got the Pro and 1X mid gen because the launch consoles were a bit lackluster in performance, especially for the wave of 4K TVs hitting the market.

That shouldn't be the case next gen.
 

Papacheeks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,559
Watertown, NY
Yep I totally agree. If XSX has 52-56CU as is looking likely and PS5 has 36 but has to essentially overclock them massively outside their perf/watt sweet spot to close the gap to a mere 30% then Mark Cerny has made a colossal balls up.

They'll be paying probably about the same for their chip as MS, but it will be 30% less powerful. That's a huge engineering fail right there.
Depends on other factors, I'm still #teamHBM and if they did a deal, possible they got HBM2(E) cheaper than what it cost for GDDR6. Rumors out of last night from WCCFTECH is new gpu's coming out from AMD will have GDDR6,HBM2.

I don't know if the ones using HBM2 are just render cards?
 
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Mecha Meister

Mecha Meister

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,098
But where do I go to vote?
Here!

Sorry, "It's. A. Toy." was supposed to be in there, I saw it but must have forgotten to quote it. I've restarted the poll and added these two:



Apologies for the inconvenience, here's the new link!


Please submit your votes again with the new link!
I'm going to give the poll another hour and then I will post the thread!
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,267
There isn’t a single insider suggesting that Cerny shat the bed. I am going to reserve judgment until we know more. We have heard these are close, and performing well. They are meeting or exceeding our initial expectations.
 

Sunlight

Member
Apr 22, 2019
243
I’m pretty sure that both Xbox consoles are confirmed to have RT hardware in them so I don’t think that would account for the size difference. It would be the number of CU’s that get decreased as you don’t need as much if targeting lower res.
Taiwanese leaker says the difference of APU size between Arden and OBR is possibly RT ASIC.


It seems few consider how a 300mm2 7nm+ APU would become.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,874
Yes. Everything converge to the APU PCB leak being legit with 40CUs, 18Gbps GDDR6 downclocked (Oberon B0) at ~550GB/s, 316mm² at 7nm.


So this means fully custom SSD with PCIe 4.0 controller (write at 4.4GB/s) + 4GB for custom cache and 2GB for most probably OS. Which would mean PS5 would have more available ram (18GB) than XSX (16GB). Maybe more depending how they use their custom cache.

SSD on XSX being from 1GB/s (from leaks) to 1.6GB/s (40x XB1 HDD). PS5 could have a much faster SSD than XSX.
But oberon is 300 mm2 just for the gpu.

You saw the leaks. Did they have anything indicating that oberon was an apu?
 

amstradcpc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
338
Yep I totally agree. If XSX has 52-56CU as is looking likely and PS5 has 36 but has to essentially overclock them massively outside their perf/watt sweet spot to close the gap to a mere 30% then Mark Cerny has made a colossal balls up.

They'll be paying probably about the same for their chip as MS, but it will be 30% less powerful. That's a huge engineering fail right there.
I agree, would be a toaster for trying to go small when they knew by XBX how MS would go wide and to the limits in its GPU.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,539
But oberon is 300 mm2 just for the gpu.

You saw the leaks. Did they have anything indicating that oberon was an apu?
There are indications Oberon is part of an APU: The results tabs are labelled "iGPU", for integrated GPU. Oberon (like Ariel) should be part of an APU, but they were testing only the GPU part, the iGPU.

What's the source about the 300mm² GPU ? that looks like a rough average.
 

Sekiro

Member
Jan 25, 2019
1,396
United Kingdom
Would it be crazy talk if oberon actually turned out to be a second chip installed within the PS5 separate from the main APU who's sole purpose is used as a dedicated chip for backwards compatibility for PS4/Pro, testing out various clock speeds for different scenarios, for example:

0.8ghz = PS4 mode

0.9ghz = PS4 Pro mode

2ghz = PS4 next gen mode (4k 60 etc )
 

RingRang

Member
Oct 2, 2019
1,212
After this latest round of leaks and seeing the analysis from Digital Foundry yesterday, I believe the PS5 is going to be around 9 tflops. Why?

It's quite simple really. It just makes sense that Sony would want to stick with a $400 price, just as they did with the PS4 and the Pro. This pretty much means they needed to stick with an affordable 36 CU chip, which perfectly lines up with this latest leak. It all makes sense.

The smart money would be betting on the 9 vs 12 tflops right now.
 

Lokimaster

Alt Account
Banned
May 12, 2019
962
If Sony is sandwiched between a cheaper next-gen console that will appeal to mainstream audiences and a more powerful console that appeals to hardcore audiences, they’re going to have a rough next eight years.

Dude if that is even remotely true, The PS5 will outsell both models of the next one, every year its out. Do you not see how middle ground that would be. lol
 

RoninStrife

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,499
I believe the PS5 is going to be around 9 tflops. Why?

It's quite simple really. It just makes sense that Sony would want to stick with a $400 price, just as they did with the PS4 and the Pro. This pretty much means they needed to stick with an affordable 36 CU chip, which perfectly lines up with this latest leak. It all makes sense.

The smart money would be betting on the 9 vs 12 tflops right now.
Well, if the new CEO calls that price "Niche", "Premium" for "Hardcore players" that want the "latest technology" and reveals 9TF at CES... it is going to be funny. Because these are the words they have used to describe PS5 to shareholders.
 

androvsky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,026
It seems to be in the APU according to the first Wired article:
The PSVR breakout box is actually a quad-core ARM SOC and an HDMI transceiver chip. The transceiver wouldn't be needed since presumably any PSVR2 would have something like a virtual link video over USB-C port, seriously already spotted in Ariel. The ARM is not only what runs the 3D audio, but also runs the big screen mode so no PS4 resources are used to draw the screen while playing a 2D game in VR. If PS5 doesn't have the breakout box, there would have to be a tiny reservation so it can draw a virtual screen for 2D games, probably not a big deal.
 

Snakeeee

Member
Jan 20, 2019
3,180
After this latest round of leaks and seeing the analysis from Digital Foundry yesterday, I believe the PS5 is going to be around 9 tflops. Why?

It's quite simple really. It just makes sense that Sony would want to stick with a $400 price, just as they did with the PS4 and the Pro. This pretty much means they needed to stick with an affordable 36 CU chip, which perfectly lines up with this latest leak. It all makes sense.

The smart money would be betting on the 9 vs 12 tflops right now.
Like peopel said if they went for 399 then go for 2ghz doesn't makes sense.
 

Klaw

Member
Nov 16, 2017
200
France
Would it be crazy talk if oberon actually turned out to be a second chip installed within the PS5 separate from the main APU who's sole purpose is used as a dedicated chip for backwards compatibility for PS4/Pro, testing out various clock speeds for different scenarios, for example:

0.8ghz = PS4 mode

0.9ghz = PS4 Pro mode

2ghz = PS4 next gen mode (4k 60 etc )
Well, if you want a 1000$ console, it's possible yes.
 
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