I would actually like Dictator to weigh in on this - one of the things that struck me when I watched the Star Citizen video was how the game is built around SSD speeds like what we expect from next-gen games, yet it also apparently demands at least 16GB of system RAM (so not even counting the VRAM in your graphics card). Made me wonder how far the concept of the SSD making up for less RAM can go.
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Next-gen PS5 and next Xbox speculation launch thread |OT8| - The Dark Tower (See Staff Post)
- Thread starter Mecha Meister
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I would actually like Dictator to weigh in on this - one of the things that struck me when I watched the Star Citizen video was how the game is built around SSD speeds like what we expect from next-gen games, yet it also apparently demands at least 16GB of system RAM (so not even counting the VRAM in your graphics card). Made me wonder how far the concept of the SSD making up for less RAM can go.
doesn't that also call into doubt the whole render and estimates of die size based on that?
Lolol cigarette butts dispenser.
See, for me they would be the centerpiece of the entertainment display.
The ps5 would be smack dab in the middle, all those LED's drawing the eyes.
The SeX tower would be more like an echo or Alexa device set to the side of the entertainment display. I couldn't lay that beautiful thing on its side like some subwoofer lol.
Both would stick out from all the black boxes already under my tv. I would wear them proudly in the living room haha.
I'm looking forward to what Ueda will make for the PS5. Just thinking about the stuff he did with a PS2, and even with The Last Guardian on PS4, fuck... Just
While the game nowadays certainly is build with an ssd in mind that certainly was not the case earlier in its development and still is not mandatory to play the game.
A game and especially a closed environment (every PS5/X series is the same) you know exactly how you can use an ssd.
While I certainly think SC is basically unplayable and will have it as a minimum spec when it releases I still don't think how it takes advantage of ssd's will be the same as the next gen games will.
I don't believe so. Far smarter people than me figure that sort of thing out....I'm probably the only person here that doesn't think the APU/RAM shot was a render!
Masooma Bhaiwala, Senior Director of Design Engineering and responsible for the Xbox and PlayStation SoC leaves AMD and starts at Intel.
German source: https://www.golem.de/news/semi-custom-amds-konsolen-chefin-wechselt-zu-intel-1912-145668.html
Only english source I could find: https://www.crn.com/news/components...icon-design-exec-to-lead-discrete-gpu-efforts
German source: https://www.golem.de/news/semi-custom-amds-konsolen-chefin-wechselt-zu-intel-1912-145668.html
Only english source I could find: https://www.crn.com/news/components...icon-design-exec-to-lead-discrete-gpu-efforts
EDIT: I made a subconscious sexist assumption without knowing the gender of the name and I hold my head in shame.
Ahhh, I see. I didn't know that it started development without the SSD requirement, so it makes a bit more sense now.
The best way for HBM to be cheaper is for it to be available in a product that sells by the tens of millions
It's too expensive for said product.
A catch 22 situation.
It's too expensive for said product.
A catch 22 situation.
Yeah I know it perhaps might sound a bit weird but they basically are everywhere here in Sweden since you are not allowed to even smoke in public unless you are in a dedicated spot and in those places dispensers are sure to be seen.
I don't want to link a picture because it might be taken the wrong way.
And I would/will hide both behind the TV when I get them 😂. Design surely is funny.
Yes with 4 stacks 8 GB HBM2 with 2 stack cost probably 60 dollars without the package.
1. Good observation
2. I noticed Klee has also called it Prospero.
Console have different architecture they have unified memory. Virtual texturing is in Unreal Engine 4 since this year I think it release in September, I am not sure.
A good explanation of virtual texturing it helps reduce memory and bandwidth use for texture
Another way to reduce texture memory usage is to replace shadow maps by raytraced shadows and they can be cheaper:
EDIT: I think all this change can maybe make 8 GB of VRAM a good choice a t 4k or at least 12 GB. You need memory for textures, geometry, data structure like BVH, Voxel if Voxel Cone tracing is used or surfel Point based color Bleeding, animation, some extra for other effect maybe.
From the sebastian aaltonen post on B3D he told a texture atlas of 256 MB in memory is enough at 4k PBR with virtual texturing out of shadow maps I suppose or maybe they are count inside.
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I'm guessing the next month or two is crunch time for Microsoft. If they only have 16GB RAM and Sony comes out with 24GB, will they up theirs or just stick to this software solution to use virtual memory and the SSD. I wonder what difference it will make to multiplatform games.
Possible PlayStation 5 related codenames
Playstation 5 codenames:
Development Kit: Prospero
APU: Oberon
GPU: Ariel (GFX1000) (Navi10LITE)
Gonzalo (?) (Possibly Navi10LITE)
AMD Platform: Flute
Just in case anyone else wants to have a refresher.
Development Kit: Prospero
APU: Oberon
GPU: Ariel (GFX1000) (Navi10LITE)
Gonzalo (?) (Possibly Navi10LITE)
AMD Platform: Flute
Just in case anyone else wants to have a refresher.
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Right. Confirmed by jschrier as well. The discussion is:
it is a Sony name and Why would Sony follow AMD Shakespeare naming convention that AMD also used for MS products, ie Arden and Argalos?
Just a strange bit of trivia to me.
edit: to be clear I totally get that it is a Sony name and I am not trying to lay out any vast stupid conspiracy :), I also understand Komachi would not know the dev kit code name. Edited for clarity.
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Komachi has stopped giving out info on console APUs for a while now. Only on trickle. I doubt he would have leaked that Sparkman had VRS and Hardware Ray Tracing if he knows it's Lockhart a while back. He also has leaked that Arden has hardware ray tracing.
However, nothing much about Ariel and Oberon. Not even if it has hardware ray tracing, VRS, or whatever. Only that it has 2 BC modes.
O____O
I forgot, Ariel and Gonzalo are PS5 GPUs. Either one and the same, or something else.
updating the post.
Kinda sorta but not really. SSD speeds have a huge window of variability (I mean, PCIe 3 vs. PCIe 4, SATA vs. NVMe, etc) and PC's data structures/drivers/etc aren't really optimized to use them to their full capacity. And that's without getting into any customizations that Sony and MS might add to their storage solutions.
For instance, while the ridiculous bandwidth numbers caught our attention, one of the really big things about Sony's patent was that their proposed drive could have guaranteed access latencies - regardless of sequential or random - of 14ms and down - that's asking for data this frame and having it the next. You average PC SSD won't get anywhere near that during normal use.
So, while an SSD makes Star Citizen "feasible", they still have to account for this variation in perf metrics and have a lot of RAM to cache a bunch of stuff "just in case". These consoles most likely won't.
Simply because it is a part that hasn't even been acknowledged by Sony much less confirmed. Not even the insiders have talked about or confirmed even the memory type...
Something funky going on? You decide.
ETA: I forgot about DS...Of course it will for sure be HBM! ;)
I think most of the "leaks" about the PS5 devkit have had it with 24GB memory. In the past, Sony have kept the same amount of memory in the devkit and the final retail unit. At least, I think they have.
Definitely not. I'm positive the V dev kit has whatever RAM the retail console will get if not the amount.
Memory controllers are part of the APU (well, if you're doing HBM there are ways to have the controllers be part of the stacks, but then you'd design the APU without them, so... yeah), so no. APU design is 100% complete by now.
16 GB packages go for 120 dollars for HBM. So with a bulk deal this could be an interesting move that has tremendous long term potential. Imagine the cost reduction of HBM if PS5 actually uses it.
At the very least we did have a rumor with HBM. Will be interesting to see if Sony goes through with it.
Yo!
But yeah, I think Sony's RAM and SSD combo will actually be one of the best parts of the PS5. An excellent customized SSD that fills RAM very quickly coupled with a RAM solution (HBM/DDR4) that can provide a ton of bandwidth. Even if it isn't that specifically, it will be something different from the expected 16GB GDDR6.
Believe.
Why? What is so clean about 16GB? The fact that is a power of two?
As I said, I'm a software developer(though I write web servers, not games), so maybe I have a different approach to this, but I feel this train of thought is pretty simple.
16GB of RAM likely means 256 bit bus. From what I judge from people smarter than me on beyond3d is that might not be enough bandwidth-wise for that kind of GPU. You do not build a 12TF GPU that will be memory starved, since that defies the point - you could go with cheaper GPU, smaller chip and still have the same performance. People seem convinced that you cannot get that kind of bandwidth on 256 bit bus. If you have wider bus(like 320 or 384 bit) you have to add more RAM, or have different sized dies, which doesn't seem to make sense. Ergo - it makes sense they have either 20 or 24 GB, since they need the bandwidth to feed the GPU.
It has nothing to do with SSDs and the like - they are there for faster asset streaming, not for feeding the GPU. SSDs will be huge for open worlds, but they will not help in rendering. Also, there is no such thing as too much memory.
From developer's perspective, adding RAM is never a problem, so they can change the targets whenever they want.
This is pure speculation, so take it with a huge grain of salt(and while I have better than most grasp on optimization and computer performance, I have no specialized knowledge about graphic systems, so I can easily be wrong), but I just don't see how 16GB would work with the rest of the spec.
"He also mentions ps4 refresh is coming around September for 199 on 7nm but not pro.pro stays the same ."
🤕
The thing missing from this line of thought, of course, is that bus width is just one part of the equation. Yeah, 256bit @ 14gbps probably would be low for a 10TF+ plus CPU APU. 256bit @ 18gbps might be more than enough.
Thank you for the links. VT should help, at least - I've heard it's similar to Mega Textures?
All true but won't this also apply to the PC versions of the third-party games that will be made? I doubt that they'll demand NVMe SSDs. Maybe the solution will be that although the consoles will be able to get away with 16GB total RAM, PC versions of the same games might demand 16 or even 32GB of system RAM to make up for 500MB/s SATA SSDs?
Something I can't recall - how much does 16GB of DDR4 generally cost?
Yes, her work would have been complete. It's all testing and production follow through. Similar to MS losing their SoC chief this year.
100% expect this to be the case, a considerable hike in baseline specs for memory (both system and video).
Should be threadmarked.
I jumped ahead about 100 pages, did we get any new solid info ekcept that Xseries seems to be 64 CU?
on DRAM Exchange but it is not the price for order of millions units, it is 3 dollars the GB for DDR4 2400. This is spot price not the price Sony would paid at all.
If 8 GB is enough for VRAM during the generation and HBM2E info_MS is a possibility not too expensive. 8GB HBM2E stack at 2.8 Gbps +16 GB of DDR4 3200 256 bits bus could be a great combnation from a technical and cost of point of view. But this is too many supposition.
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Valid point. Notice however that 18 to 14 gbps is a factor of 1.28, while adding RAM to 20GB is a factor of 1.25 with additional benefit of more lanes, which can help with CPU/GPU contention. I would go with more of a slower memory, since that should mean wider availability. I don't see how 25% increase in RAM cost would be huge for boxes that powerful and given how every generation devs talk about importance of moving data around, I think it was important design point.
When you design the system, you don't go for magic numbers to make fanboys drool, you make sure that your investment makes sense. Since they apparently targeted very high GPU power(once again - double digits were kind of a dream not so long ago) and CPU is not shabby either, they had to take memory into account from the very start.
Of course, it's still possible that 16GB has enough bandwidth. I just don't see it, because 16GB of RAM is just not that much nowadays and memory constraints are the hardest thing to optimize for. If you build a box twice as fast as Scorpio(and PS5 is probably similar), why would you give it just 33% more RAM?
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