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Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,911
There's literally a most outstanding player award too which is the Ted Lindsay which should go to McDavid.

Yeah, which is why I said they should fold that award (the Pearson) in with the Hart in the post you quoted.

Because the Pearson is a player-voted trophy that doesn't get the play of the Hart trophy. MOP should just be the award. The MVP stuff should remain in playoffs with the Conn Smythe because it's much easier to identify a most valuable player in a 16-28 game sample in the spring than an 82 game sample across 30 teams all year.

The real MVP is always a goalie tbh.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,183
People have short-term memories and zero ability to forecast. So what they see is recent stuff like:

+ trades for Miller, Miller producing
+ trades for Pearson, Pearson producing
+ signs Meyers, Meyers does fine
+ drafts Hughes, Hughes the best defenseman on the team
+ drafts Hoglander, Hoglander leads WJHC in scoring
+ first in Pacific

And ignore:
- loads of terrible contracts that will handcuff the Canucks during their window
- still on the cusp of playoffs
- 1st rounder could still be lottery pick
- current nature of winning is unsustainable

I don't know how you pick McDavid over MacKinnon for Hart when Draisaitl is right there with McDavid while MacK's linemates were out for a significant amount of time and he still produced by himself.
I know we joke about Makar and Qughes (I think Makar is fantastic and will end up the better player as his defensive game improves), but this sort of logic applies to the Calder as well. While it isn't 'Most Valuable Rookie', Qughes has been the better two-way player by a wide margin and has been limited offensively by oiSh%. However, people really only look at raw point totals and ignore context, so Makar won almost unanimously.

Should be pointed out that this is midseason and so the conversation/debate hasn't really happened yet. Hall won the Hart a couple seasons ago because someone started pointing to numbers beyond points and that started a conversation in the Spring which eventually won people over. Could happen with MacKinnon, too.
 

Rahvar

Weight Loss Champion 2018: Most Lost
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,152
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I mean, aren't most of the trophies rather pointless in the same way? Best defenseman might as well be "Best forward who plays in the wrong position"
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,975
The problem with the Hart is it's voted on by the PHWA who don't know their assholes from a hole in the ground and have arbitraily made the distinction that it can only be given to a player judged most valuable to getting his team into the playoffs.

The fact is, without McDavid the Oilers would be the worst team in the league. Sorry Drai.

Lindsay, Hart, Ross should all be re-named the McDavid. He'll win 6+ of each in his career.
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,818
The Nathan for Hart thing is a lot more compelling, without digging into their specific impacts, and a cursory glance at both of their individual impacts, I think this is the year MacKinnon should win it. It'll be close and I think Colorado's ease of schedule is really going to help out him and the guy I mention below. Of course if Edmonton slips out of the playoffs, I think voters will hand MacKinnon the Hart barring some crazy point differential.

2 years ago it was laughable because of the Hall has no linemates angle. MacKinnon's individual impacts were slightly above even McDavids that year, and significantly higher across the board vs Hall.

I know we joke about Makar and Qughes (I think Makar is fantastic and will end up the better player as his defensive game improves), but this sort of logic applies to the Calder as well. While it isn't 'Most Valuable Rookie', Qughes has been the better two-way player by a wide margin and has been limited offensively by oiSh%. However, people really only look at raw point totals and ignore context, so Makar won almost unanimously.

Eh, there's a LOT of cherry picked stats that some people are heavily quoting about Hughe's advantage. His biggest advantage is his relative stats (aka how bad his teammates are compared to him vs Makar). The HERO charts that you see floating around also say Ian Cole is better than both of them (which, I assure you, he is not).

His S% is lower than Makar because he just doesn't have the same shot, he's a volume shooter (much like MacKinnon is) but his xGF/iCF is also much, much lower, about half of that of Makars. Which means his shots, or at least the shots he's taking are less lethal. Couple that with the fact that Makar also generates more shots individually, it's not hard to see why he's scoring more goals. (that said Makar also is leading the league for S%, which should dip slightly). 0.0288 (Hughes) vs 0.0678 (Makar) for a rolling average of ixG.

Even the TOI that Drance seems to be championing is moot because Makar's rolling 5 game average 5on5 TOI is higher. You can seen on Sean Tierney's website that Hughes is riding a spike of TOI from when the Canucks suffered from injuries. Makar is trending up, Hughes usage is trending down. 17.75 (Makar) vs 16.57 (Hughes).

Something (I guess you expect that from someone trying to carry water) is Drance/Dayal will beat the drum that Makar's 5v5 numbers are unsustainable but will look the other way when it comes to PP production. Both players and both teams have the same xGF/60 rates (Makar: 6.35, Hughes: 6.47, Colorado: 5.85,Vancouver: 5.84). But somehow Vancouver is 7th on the PP with a GF/60 of 8.44 and Colorado is 21st with a 6.39 GF/60. It's kind of a big deal because that's where Hughes is catching up ground with 3 more PP points. Their PP production should be about even but it's not.

If we want to talk about overall impact, GAR/WAR/GSVA models all have Makar well ahead in terms of game impact and what they add to their respective teams. Which is an overall measure of offence and defence.

Even with all that in mind, Makar still has a 3 point lead with 7 less games played with a significant lead in primary points.

It's close, but not really as close as Drance/Dayal want to make you think it is (I mean they flat out say Hughes is better). They're both exceptional rookies and if Makar wasn't doing this, you'd be hearing about historic of a season Hughes is having.

TLDR; Makar and Hughes are a lot closer than they appear. Drance is cherry picking stats to make it look like Hughes is significantly better and plays more. They're both really good and both fan bases are in love with their own guy.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
11,183
The Nathan for Hart thing is a lot more compelling, without digging into their specific impacts, and a cursory glance at both of their individual impacts, I think this is the year MacKinnon should win it. It'll be close and I think Colorado's ease of schedule is really going to help out him and the guy I mention below. Of course if Edmonton slips out of the playoffs, I think voters will hand MacKinnon the Hart barring some crazy point differential.

2 years ago it was laughable because of the Hall has no linemates angle. MacKinnon's individual impacts were slightly above even McDavids that year, and significantly higher across the board vs Hall.



Eh, there's a LOT of cherry picked stats that some people are heavily quoting about Hughe's advantage. His biggest advantage is his relative stats (aka how bad his teammates are compared to him vs Makar). The HERO charts that you see floating around also say Ian Cole is better than both of them (which, I assure you, he is not).

His S% is lower than Makar because he just doesn't have the same shot, he's a volume shooter (much like MacKinnon is) but his xGF/iCF is also much, much lower, about half of that of Makars. Which means his shots, or at least the shots he's taking are less lethal. Couple that with the fact that Makar also generates more shots individually, it's not hard to see why he's scoring more goals. (that said Makar also is leading the league for S%, which should dip slightly). 0.0288 (Hughes) vs 0.0678 (Makar) for a rolling average of ixG.

Even the TOI that Drance seems to be championing is moot because Makar's rolling 5 game average 5on5 TOI is higher. You can seen on Sean Tierney's website that Hughes is riding a spike of TOI from when the Canucks suffered from injuries. Makar is trending up, Hughes usage is trending down. 17.75 (Makar) vs 16.57 (Hughes).

Something (I guess you expect that from someone trying to carry water) is Drance/Dayal will beat the drum that Makar's 5v5 numbers are unsustainable but will look the other way when it comes to PP production. Both players and both teams have the same xGF/60 rates (Makar: 6.35, Hughes: 6.47, Colorado: 5.85,Vancouver: 5.84). But somehow Vancouver is 7th on the PP with a GF/60 of 8.44 and Colorado is 21st with a 6.39 GF/60. It's kind of a big deal because that's where Hughes is catching up ground with 3 more PP points. Their PP production should be about even but it's not.

If we want to talk about overall impact, GAR/WAR/GSVA models all have Makar well ahead in terms of game impact and what they add to their respective teams. Which is an overall measure of offence and defence.

Even with all that in mind, Makar still has a 3 point lead with 7 less games played with a significant lead in primary points.

It's close, but not really as close as Drance/Dayal want to make you think it is (I mean they flat out say Hughes is better). They're both exceptional rookies and if Makar wasn't doing this, you'd be hearing about historic of a season Hughes is having.

TLDR; Makar and Hughes are a lot closer than they appear. Drance is cherry picking stats to make it look like Hughes is significantly better and plays more. They're both really good and both fan bases are in love with their own guy.
Oh, boy. I am sorry you have been subjected to their advocacy, though I am not familiar with the arguments myself. But if you want to argue with Drance or cherry pick to counter his cherry picking, maybe go to Twitter. ;)

I largely agree with you but to clarify a few things:

- I mentioned oiSh%, not just sh%. Absolutely Makar has a better shot, whereas Qughes is mostly about using his skating to get around the opposition and throw the puck on net.
- GSVA has Qughes above Makar but just barely. Though if you value GAR over GSVA then Makar has a big advantage there, largely because of his insane GF/sh%
- Qughes' xGF and xGF% are higher than Makar's at 5vs5 so I'm not sure why we're getting different numbers. And this is controlled for 5vs5 so you don't need to go to such pains about the PP
- to be clear, Qughes' advantage isn't how bad his teammates are - - it's how well he's performed despite having bad teammates
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,818
Oh, boy. I am sorry you have been subjected to their advocacy, though I am not familiar with the arguments myself. But if you want to argue with Drance or cherry pick to counter his cherry picking, maybe go to Twitter. ;)

I largely agree with you but to clarify a few things:

- I mentioned oiSh%, not just sh%. Absolutely Makar has a better shot, whereas Qughes is mostly about using his skating to get around the opposition and throw the puck on net.
- GSVA has Qughes above Makar but just barely. Though if you value GAR over GSVA then Makar has a big advantage there, largely because of his insane GF/sh%
- Qughes' xGF and xGF% are higher than Makar's at 5vs5 so I'm not sure why we're getting different numbers. And this is controlled for 5vs5 so you don't need to go to such pains about the PP
- to be clear, Qughes' advantage isn't how bad his teammates are - - it's how well he's performed despite having bad teammates

For sure, I wasn't trying to frame it in any other way. He's playing well despite his teammates. And I wasn't trying to come at you or anything, hope it didn't come across as that, just merely adding to the discussion.

And for GSVA, I was going off Dom's model:

 
Oct 25, 2017
11,183
For sure, I wasn't trying to frame it in any other way. He's playing well despite his teammates. And I wasn't trying to come at you or anything, hope it didn't come across as that, just merely adding to the discussion.

And for GSVA, I was going off Dom's model:

Ah

Hughes narrowly ahead in this look; Makar narrowly ahead with GSVA specifically


w2Yg3ND.jpg


They're both fantastic. I do think Makar has some catching up to do in terms of impact in his own end, but Qughes will never catch him in terms of shot and physicality
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,818
Ah

Hughes narrowly ahead in this look; Makar narrowly ahead with GSVA specifically


They're both fantastic. I do think Makar has some catching up to do in terms of impact in his own end, but Qughes will never catch him in terms of shot and physicality

Yeah I saw that floating around, it's from Harman's article about Hughes being better than Dahlin, it's based off Dom's GSVA, but it also serves as a projection he states. And to what extent and what he used to determine that, I'm not sure. The ones that Dom himself tweet out were the GSVA values as they currently stand at the ASG break.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,183


🤔

Hughes isn't even that fast at top speed. He's just a very good skater and has a great first few steps. Will be interesting to see how he does, at least
 
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Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
I'll watch the skills comp tonight
and bitch the entire time about how stupid it is
but I'll still watch
 

MetatronM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,851
I'm mildly curious how Kreids will do in the fastest skater competition since he's quite possibly the fastest dude in the NHL when going in a straight line, but turning and changing direction at speed isn't exactly what he's famous for so I'm not expecting much.
 

vatstep

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,498
St. Louis bandwagoners probably think when your team wins the Cup they get to host the all-star game
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,818
The Avs last played on Monday... and they're next game is next Saturday, this is going to be a rough wait lol.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,921
I love how when they show clips of All-Star games from the 80s, the players actually look like they're playing a game of hockey. When did the All-Star game turn to shit?
 
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