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Nier: Automata Mafia - To serve mankind... up on a platter via vote.
- Thread starter lokiduck
- Start date
I assume that was meant to be "before or after".
Neki was #3,383
Stan was #3,418
If Monkey is scum she is Even Scum meaning She would not kill anyone Last Night if we left her alive.
Monkey is an active player putting Down many reads and playing Hard I want Her to Live as long as possible to get down as much as possible for us to go back through later.
Tonight however theres a chance to shut the door on Even Mafia before there next Night Kill making the timing more Ideal
Thank You. Ok Neki's Claim is Very believable now. (Still not a Greencheck)
I think Stan's claim plus how how he's behaved in general this game means we can safely clear him. With his claim, looking back at his posts you can see the consistent behavior that a role like his would indicate. I think he's telling the truth and absolutely think he believes his stances here today. This doesn't feel like a gambit to me, he's consistently advocated for Monkey ever since her claim. That's a townie thing to do.
As someone who's Major reason Voting for you is wanting To Turbo the day and Wanting the rest of Town to not even Think about anything else.
What made you change your mind?
I said before it was stan's claim -- I think people need to work through it.
The nature of a turbo is that it can only happen if a majority of players vote that way, so my putting my opinion out there was just that -- my opinion.
Except there are a lot of killing roles? Game setup has an SK along with some scum team makeup. That's two kills a night there. Add in a vig shot and yes that is a pretty decent amount killing potential each night. There is not solving based on game balance and then just totally not considering balance which is what you are doing.
So do you think Random's flip was tailored? Because based on his flip I don't know how Monkey does what you are saying she did. From his flip Even Team had a 1 shot strongman and 1 shot ninja, he was the strong which means there is a ninja out there. Random had no other abilities listed for himself. So on a two person team, based on Random's flip, Monkey would have only had the ninja and no means of protection. On a 3 person team Monkey could have healed herself to tank HP's kill but why would that 3rd person not take the presumed ninja kill?
Fantasy isn't really a good example. I mostly did that to give the scum teams a sense that there was a powerful town.
Obviously I'm talkin about claimed PRs. Not counting what EC is doing as a claim.
She knows this. She just shit flinging in hopes town doesnt let's her skate.........again. You can't have some questioable stuff like what has transpired and still follow her blindly.
This mainly got followed up with talk of Sneeks being Chuggs' main defender not Sorian, but I'm setting that aside.
I'm interested in what you were actually saying about the Chuggs and Maol wagons in the first place because I'm an idiot who needs explanations instead of implications. What were you seeing there?
Sigh. I was about to argue with you again, went back and read the PM to get ammo and:
"You can not use the factional ninja shot the same night the factional kill is used."
I don't know how many times I have read that PM and that part didn't register.
So yeah I need to step back and recalibrate a bit because something I was crystal clear about in my mind was incorrect.
I havent even mentioned the PM stuff at all again. More deflection
Like this is nothing. Reads like you want ppl to sympathize with you.
Again Moal's tracking results need to be resolved.
Mighty convenient you come to this conclusion after you spent a large part of last day phase making it seem like Sorian's death was to screw you over and HP's shot was redirected.
I think that's the most notifications I've ever had in a game so clearly there's some things waiting for me to answer.
Sure. I raised the point. I did think it was important. There was no great reason to target Sorian.
But when it turned out there wasn't anything there that was useful, I moved on. That's the difference. I didn't know the answer and couldn't answer it. Doesn't mean I didn't wonder. Doesn't mean it didn't feel targeted. But I couldn't answer, so I moved on & looked elsewhere in order to solve. There are a lot of things I can't answer. I'm not going to flip everyone just to get answers. My wincon isn't figure out what happened n2. At some point, you have to look at the mechanics on the table, and at the holes, and determine if you can actually see anything or if you're just throwing darts.
You're throwing darts.
Since this is the last post and I can see it right there -
Sure. I raised the point. I did think it was important. There was no great reason to target Sorian.
But when it turned out there wasn't anything there that was useful, I moved on. That's the difference. I didn't know the answer and couldn't answer it. Doesn't mean I didn't wonder. Doesn't mean it didn't feel targeted. But I couldn't answer, so I moved on & looked elsewhere in order to solve. There are a lot of things I can't answer. I'm not going to flip everyone just to get answers. My wincon isn't figure out what happened n2. At some point, you have to look at the mechanics on the table, and at the holes, and determine if you can actually see anything or if you're just throwing darts.
You're throwing darts.
==== DAY 4 VOTES ====
Day Start
Dr. Monkey (3 votes)
EzekelRAGE - #3,353
Hawthorn - #3,354
EvilChameleon - #3,391 #3,443
Maolfunction - #3,413
Hawthorn (2 votes)
jman1954goat - #3,434 #3,447
jman1954goat - #3,459
Stantastic - #3,531
EzekelRAGE (0 votes)
jman1954goat - #3,447 #3,459
Not voting: CheshireCat, EvilChameleon, Neki, NeonBorealis, MrHedin, Ephidel, Lone_Prodigy, Dr. Monkey
Post Counts:
jman1954goat: 50 EzekelRAGE: 37 Maolfunction: 32 Stantastic: 31 Hawthorn: 28 EvilChameleon: 24 NeonBorealis: 22 Dr. Monkey: 18 MrHedin: 9 Lone_Prodigy: 9 Neki: 6 Ephidel: 3 CheshireCat: 2
Current Countdown:
Click here to go to the Vote Tool!
Day Start
Dr. Monkey (3 votes)
EzekelRAGE - #3,353
Hawthorn - #3,354
Maolfunction - #3,413
Hawthorn (2 votes)
jman1954goat - #3,459
Stantastic - #3,531
EzekelRAGE (0 votes)
Not voting: CheshireCat, EvilChameleon, Neki, NeonBorealis, MrHedin, Ephidel, Lone_Prodigy, Dr. Monkey
Post Counts:
jman1954goat: 50 EzekelRAGE: 37 Maolfunction: 32 Stantastic: 31 Hawthorn: 28 EvilChameleon: 24 NeonBorealis: 22 Dr. Monkey: 18 MrHedin: 9 Lone_Prodigy: 9 Neki: 6 Ephidel: 3 CheshireCat: 2
Current Countdown:
Click here to go to the Vote Tool!
People seem weirdly unintersted that someone vistied me considering we are trying to figure out flavors right now? Hedin and neon we scum lean reading me yesterday, and I was scum reading hedin and haw. Take a look-
This was bascially the only big reads list I posted yesterday. And then I woke up today to a pm saying I was GIVEN AN ITEM - and therefore LOST MY ABILITY TO VOTE?
So who gains by not having me put down a late vote?
This was bascially the only big reads list I posted yesterday. And then I woke up today to a pm saying I was GIVEN AN ITEM - and therefore LOST MY ABILITY TO VOTE?
So who gains by not having me put down a late vote?
No, you didnt move on. You threw a lot of shit about the Sorian stuff. And you carried the Sorian stuff into the later parts of the last day phase
You arguing about it 7-8 hours before eod.
Tracked to a dead person and tracked to yourself on the same night HP shot you.
Treating it as a soft clear on either Stan/Neki or Maol is something I can't actually follow the logic on.
If you're assuming it's a scum power (it's been used to influence N1 and N3 targets that we know of, I'll grant that the implication is there but that's not certain) then all The User would have known when picking targets was that Stan/Neki weren't on their team, not that they weren't on a team, and the same goes for Maol as a target.
(It also wouldn't stop Neki and Maol being teamed as he refused to follow the order, though that's not actually an option I'm considering at the moment).
I also don't like the idea of trying to solve based on who is left on the runaway train.
Yes at first glance being amongst everyone else on a large train seems like a nice place for them, but I've seen people analyse a train like that before and whittle down the remainders when there wasn't actually anyone else there to find.
An equal number of people were off wagon. Jman/Me/Zeke were all sitting on you that day, Shirou and Neon were on Hawthorn, Cheshire was on Sorian, Sparks was on Shirou, EC was on Maol, and You didn't vote.
Has anyone else Been given an Item or Lost Voting Privileges?
I have purposely not said more so that we can confirm if people had. If anyone else lost the ability to vote b/c they were given something, what were you given?
I expressed interest!
Not sure how best to approach this though, let's try this.
Does it just last today?
Or is the item an actual thing and you're blocked for as long as you have it?
Not that have declared it.
Pretty sure the only person who didn't vote on D2 was HP and I feel like he'd have said. Everyone voted yesterday.
Catch up posts. If some of this is outdated by now, sorry.
Have you noticed I'm STILL not voting you? I can find this annoying without transferring it to an automatic scum read. You're in full BEC mode, but I still don't know where to put you.
You not liking it isn't your win condition, either.
I'm gonna be a dick with this post but honestly, I think it deserves a touch of dickery.
noun
2. HP shot Monkey.
3. The shot went to Sneeks.
4. Monkey visited Sneeks.
5. Monkey has been trying to link the Sorian stuff to her.
6. Just to distract from the fuckery of the tracking results.
This is six statement. I would call this 2.5 facts and a lot of speculation.
HP is in fact a flipped townie, per his PM. Actual fact.
I did visit Sneeks. I confirmed this and Maol also got the result. We can consider that something known, though it's not proven.
I did float the idea of a Sorian connection.
The rest is speculation. Putting a word in capital letters doesn't mean what you're about to say is more true.
SHOULD. Doesn't mean that's what happened here, but SHOULD. Mostly gamerunners use consistent language on results. You can probably clarify this with LoVe, even. They probably won't offer more info but will tell you if the result was misworded or not.
How many times? How many times have we made assumptions on mechanics like this and had it burn us? ffs
This overreliance on roles and design assumption makes me crave a more normal game.
Yep. The ninja action is specifically labeled as a factional modifier, which should mean it can be used anytime the factional kill is - but that's just based on the wording. That's how it reads. But that's an unusual modifier so I'm hesitant to state firmly either way. That's just how I read it.
I'm not allowed to say I felt like Sorian's death was meaningful, but it's fine if Zeke gets conspiratorial, I guess.
Have you noticed I'm STILL not voting you? I can find this annoying without transferring it to an automatic scum read. You're in full BEC mode, but I still don't know where to put you.
If y'all turboed me mid-phase yesterday, do you think you'd get c4 today? Real question. Not hypothetical. People were on him but there didn't seem to be a lot of focus there.
Once again, starting with one method doesn't mean that's the only method. I really don't understand why everyone is so up my ass about my approach when... it worked?
You not liking it isn't your win condition, either.
I'm gonna be a dick with this post but honestly, I think it deserves a touch of dickery.
fact /fakt/
noun
- a thing that is known or proved to be true.
2. HP shot Monkey.
3. The shot went to Sneeks.
4. Monkey visited Sneeks.
5. Monkey has been trying to link the Sorian stuff to her.
6. Just to distract from the fuckery of the tracking results.
This is six statement. I would call this 2.5 facts and a lot of speculation.
HP is in fact a flipped townie, per his PM. Actual fact.
I did visit Sneeks. I confirmed this and Maol also got the result. We can consider that something known, though it's not proven.
I did float the idea of a Sorian connection.
The rest is speculation. Putting a word in capital letters doesn't mean what you're about to say is more true.
Nonsense. I spent loads of time talking about it today. I do not see the point of repeating myself. You, however, can do whatever floats your boat.
We only speculate about what happened when Zeke wants to, guys.
No, that should mean you were blocked - c4 blocked/not moving should be "your target did not move" or similar. You blocked = no result.
SHOULD. Doesn't mean that's what happened here, but SHOULD. Mostly gamerunners use consistent language on results. You can probably clarify this with LoVe, even. They probably won't offer more info but will tell you if the result was misworded or not.
thank you. yes. Scum is more likely to see the breadcrumbs and hints even than anyone else and of course in multiball they're talking about this stuff.
...this is probably a sign that you should not make the assumption. jman is right.
Unless you know the other scum powers, yeah, you cannot make this assumption. seriously. y'all. stop it.
How many times? How many times have we made assumptions on mechanics like this and had it burn us? ffs
This overreliance on roles and design assumption makes me crave a more normal game.
I was given a tracker scanner on N2, but I didn't loose my ability to vote.
Btw. Today is proving to be crazy. I can't promise to be present for the day, but I'll try to read snd respond tonight, if possible.
Btw. Today is proving to be crazy. I can't promise to be present for the day, but I'll try to read snd respond tonight, if possible.
Or at the very least, I don't know if I lost it. Never received a notification of that regard.
is there someone that can give items without knowing what they are? is that a thing? Or is it more likely that this is someones one shot? That just doesnt seem to make sense. I haven't had time to make any tunnels?
Seriously, this is largely outside of game and most of you will ignore me anyway but I gotta say this. I want all of y'all who speculate on mechanics to volunteer for modchat and gamewatching or reviewing if you haven't. Our games are not professional. They are not consistent. They are messy. There are SO MANY GAMES where this has bit us in the ass. TMBG was one. Was it LB3 when forever we assumed that one team was town when they were messengers? etc. etc. etc. etc. Misread wording, inconsistencies in PMs, role names, all that - it happens all the time and y'all do not learn.
It is incredibly frustrating to put the time and effort I do into this game only to see it ignored because someone decided to make an assumption about game design that is based on absolutely nothing, and it's worse because everyone does it regardless of alignment and it helps no one and only harms.
We go through mechanics to see if we can figure things out but we have to stop making assumptions based on some kind of consistency that doesn't always exist and based on assumptions that don't bear out.
Again, if someone absolutely feels they must resolve me visiting Sneeks: I get that. I don't like it, but I get it.
What I deeply dislike is people throwing around their guesses and assumptions as "facts." Mathematically, I do not think you can all be scum, so friggen stop it.
It is incredibly frustrating to put the time and effort I do into this game only to see it ignored because someone decided to make an assumption about game design that is based on absolutely nothing, and it's worse because everyone does it regardless of alignment and it helps no one and only harms.
We go through mechanics to see if we can figure things out but we have to stop making assumptions based on some kind of consistency that doesn't always exist and based on assumptions that don't bear out.
Again, if someone absolutely feels they must resolve me visiting Sneeks: I get that. I don't like it, but I get it.
What I deeply dislike is people throwing around their guesses and assumptions as "facts." Mathematically, I do not think you can all be scum, so friggen stop it.
fruit vendors give "items" without knowing what they are
we have had item givers before with a bank of items or mystery boxes. not unpossible. but there's more to this conversation I want to read and now I have to leave and go do child pickup. I'll be back after dinner.
also, this?
I am a human person with human person feelings. Hell yes I'm mad at this dumb tunnel. Hell yes I would like to actually be judged on my play and not "we don't know so gotta flip you I guess!"
Idk, if I was on the other side, I'd probably be right there thinking yep, we gotta clear obstacles. Y'all, I get that. But I'm the obstacle and I see what I'm doing to work through this and comparing it to some of the hand-sitting I'm seeing and yes. It's frustrating as hell. I'm not going to stop being a person just because I'm involved in a puzzle game. You don't ever see to care about anything. Good for you. That must be convenient. Would love to turn feelings off. Sadly, can't.
So you can track people like Maol?
Who did you Track night 3?
Will not being moving my vote.
For those who are still on the fence about Monkey:
Do you not believe Maol? If you do you have to question why should would visit herself and Sneeks.
What do you think happened to HP's shot? Seemed obvious he would Shoot Monkey. So makes sense she would protect herself. Let's look at her initial the day after Neeks/Sorian death.
Why didn't Monkey protect the claimed Vig over Neeks on Night 2?
Monkey has said multiple times that she planned on saying she visited Neeks EVEN BEFORE Maol's results But why though? You are our only doctor and you have more shots left. Why do a full claim because your protection failed?
This reads to me like she is waiting to see what HP says to see how to play off things. Was probably planning to say she was targeted last night as well. Maol's track ruined that.
Why didnt Monkey protect HP N2? HP claimed Day 2.
Monkey's reasoning for protecting Neeks
Why wouldnt Monkey protect the claimed vig?
For those who are still on the fence about Monkey:
Do you not believe Maol? If you do you have to question why should would visit herself and Sneeks.
What do you think happened to HP's shot? Seemed obvious he would Shoot Monkey. So makes sense she would protect herself. Let's look at her initial the day after Neeks/Sorian death.
Why didn't Monkey protect the claimed Vig over Neeks on Night 2?
Monkey has said multiple times that she planned on saying she visited Neeks EVEN BEFORE Maol's results But why though? You are our only doctor and you have more shots left. Why do a full claim because your protection failed?
This reads to me like she is waiting to see what HP says to see how to play off things. Was probably planning to say she was targeted last night as well. Maol's track ruined that.
Why didnt Monkey protect HP N2? HP claimed Day 2.
Monkey's reasoning for protecting Neeks
Neeks didnt make a claim at all(iirc), and from skimming through Monkey's posts that day Monkey didnt townread neeks(more nullish).
Why wouldnt Monkey protect the claimed vig?
Question, with the Stan/Neki thing revealed now. Was looking through Monkey's posts, is this the first mention of the puppetry thing?
It was a oneshot track.
I tracked Neki since she was one of the players I had the least info about (honestly, it was between you and Neki at the end, had to do a Coinflip). The results said that she didn't move, which didn't tell me anything at first, but makes me feel more confident about her claim of being roleblocked.
I'm saying all that has nothing to do with anything.
Everyone has replaced into a game.
Everyone has been wrong as hell.
Everyone feels like shit when they are wrong.
Everyone has been frustrated playing a game of Mafia.
All the above should not play a role in whether someone scumreads you or not.
That read to me like you wanted ppl to feel sorry so they wouldnt vote for you. You know we have ppl in this community that see responses like that and think "ahh only a town would make a post like that". I wasnt saying be a robot with no emotions. If I read that wrong then I'm sorry.
For future posts, Neki's pronoun is he.
... I don't know, but I am now curious
only other thing I found wasFor future posts, Neki's pronoun is he.
... I don't know, but I am now curious
Still searching though.
Ask them again. Point me to the post. I miss things.
But as for this? You're wrong. I posted loads of reads all day. I posted continual updates of where I was and where I was struggling. You and Zeke WERE a blindspot I was chasing! That's why I was trying to re-read both you guys and the discussion around you. I finally concluded there wasn't enough. Why? Zeke is more bombastic, but it's the same problem: small footprint. Zeke has talked about two things in the last two phases. He's loud and aggro about them, but it's like two things. You're snide and talking about lots of things, but not actually saying much at all.
Who is voting for Cheshire? Who is even talking about her? She even complained that no one was talking about her hint. This isn't even what I said - in fact I concluded she was incredibly unlikely to be scum because I could only visualize one partner for her: you. Then I also hard townread one of her posts! HOW do you come away with this read?
Are you complaining that I took new information and used it to continue building a read?
I am just... I don't see how you get there at all. I don't see the result, I don't see how you get here, and I think you're just paranoid. I had a read on Cheshire. I had a reason to question it. I did. I returned to the townread.
You mistake me trying to solve you for trying to flip you. Show me where I advocated for your flip. I might today, honestly, but I'm still trying to figure you out.
I'm also incredibly against chain votes. Chain votes are as dumb as trying to read an incomplete design.
I'm telling you that you are in bizarro world. It straight up feels like you only read about half my d2 posts and are trying to pass it off as me not doing much. No hyperbole. It honestly just feels like you're phoning it in on incomplete information. Why bother? No one cares if you vote me. It's the popular thing to do.
I didn't protect HP because there was no reason to protect HP. There was no reason to kill HP, either (lolscum). It was unlikely he was more than two shot with a sk in play if he was really town. Yes, I'm gonna make that design read and yes, I'd gamble someone not engaging much on it. I chose to attempt a protect on someone else.
They should have let HP live, tbh.
They should have let HP live, tbh.
You are mixing your days up. I am not asking why you didnt protect HP last night.
I'm asking why you didnt protect him N2, the night you protected Neeks. So the design and read thing doesnt play a factor in D2. Scum has to believe him that he is the vig.
I believe Stan for a lot of reasons, but definitely with this.
^^^^timberlakestare.gif
This is true. For almost every potential claim here, actually.
They could be, because they could easily end up protecting scum, so that's negative utility, or a protect could be team-aligned. Trackers could be anything, doctors, even a cop could be scum in multiball. Everything is kind of on the table. That's the big complication.
Oh, I thought you meant last night. Yeah, no, at the end of the day I'm choosing an active and solving Sneeks over a lot of people and roles, especially after that flip. Sneeks was the most likely kill that night. There are very few situations when I don't ultimately make that choice. That's why I discarded Cheshire so quickly. Like, I firm townread her but she wasn't at risk and wasn't actually doing much, so why bother.
Why would Sneeks be the most likely kill over a claimed Vig that scum know is telling the truth.
OK I've stepped back a bit. I still don't know where I land but I think I am in a space now to be more open to ideas.
I think Monkey's claimed role absolutely fits for a town role. It's a complement to Stan's claimed role and it stands to reason that town needs a healthy protection presence since two potential kills a night is part of the design. Splitting them up into their respective groups also makes sense, gives town some protection about losing their only protection when multiple kills are possible.
Still now that I have re-re-re-re-re-read Random's role and finally saw/internalized that the ninja kill was a faction ability and not a player ability my footing in understanding N2 possibilities is on less firm standing. A scum doc can make sense, especially with small scum teams having to dodge kills from the other team and the SK. Monkey protecting herself and killing Sneeks works with Maol's results. It all fits in neatly to make a nice narrative on what happened but it also feels a little too neat.
I have enough doubts that I don't think I will vote for Monkey but I don't see myself trying drum up a counter wagon to specifically save her either. Part of it is that we've already spent 2 days going over this, I don't really want to rehash everything again on a 3rd day. Part of it is that I feel we are collectively ignoring Odd Team and want to see if there is anything we can pick up on that front. Part of it is that I have a small quiet voice in my head saying this is MGS Monkey that is keeping me from totally believing Monkey.
Thank you for listening to my wishy washy Ted Talk.
I think Monkey's claimed role absolutely fits for a town role. It's a complement to Stan's claimed role and it stands to reason that town needs a healthy protection presence since two potential kills a night is part of the design. Splitting them up into their respective groups also makes sense, gives town some protection about losing their only protection when multiple kills are possible.
Still now that I have re-re-re-re-re-read Random's role and finally saw/internalized that the ninja kill was a faction ability and not a player ability my footing in understanding N2 possibilities is on less firm standing. A scum doc can make sense, especially with small scum teams having to dodge kills from the other team and the SK. Monkey protecting herself and killing Sneeks works with Maol's results. It all fits in neatly to make a nice narrative on what happened but it also feels a little too neat.
I have enough doubts that I don't think I will vote for Monkey but I don't see myself trying drum up a counter wagon to specifically save her either. Part of it is that we've already spent 2 days going over this, I don't really want to rehash everything again on a 3rd day. Part of it is that I feel we are collectively ignoring Odd Team and want to see if there is anything we can pick up on that front. Part of it is that I have a small quiet voice in my head saying this is MGS Monkey that is keeping me from totally believing Monkey.
Thank you for listening to my wishy washy Ted Talk.
If this is a pocket, I'm in, lessss gooooo
I don't read this as fishing, btw. I mean, it could be acting, but this just strikes me as someone who actually didn't know this was not a thing we do. It doesn't move the need for me - i just think it's NAI. I saw some chatter and thought I'd weigh in.