Iirc you can switch difficulty in the menu, so you could give hard a try for some time and then if it's as annoying as people say it is, you just turn it back down.
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NieR: Automata |OT| Reset For Ending [E]ra
- Thread starter BRSxIgnition
- Start date
Has anything been discussed concerning the videogame developer machine life form?
I feel there's some commentary Taro is making either with concern to his own career (which I don't know enough about to back up that claim) or he's just making fun of gamers in general who "have so many awesome ideas about game design" but at the end of the day don't realize how hard it is to not only make a game, but make it playable and relatively bug free.
I think it's probably more of the latter, and as a software developer currently dealing with the debug phase of a product launch, I thought it was pretty funny...
I feel there's some commentary Taro is making either with concern to his own career (which I don't know enough about to back up that claim) or he's just making fun of gamers in general who "have so many awesome ideas about game design" but at the end of the day don't realize how hard it is to not only make a game, but make it playable and relatively bug free.
I think it's probably more of the latter, and as a software developer currently dealing with the debug phase of a product launch, I thought it was pretty funny...
Taro is pretty self-depreciating so probably the former. A lot of his previous games were plagued by "brilliant ideas but the technical implementation sucked".
I can't stop marveling at the animation...Damn them Platinum boys are good.
Finally got the platinum yesterday (legit) after dropping the game last year when I finished it.
I'd like to do a another playthrough just for the story but I'll wait until I get an X or a Pro
For now, I think I'm ready to go back to the last ending and do the right thing this time.
Can't believe it took me this long to do the last Emil sidequest. One of the best fights/content in the game, I had goosebumps the whole time with the music and Emil's dialogue.
For now, I think I'm ready to go back to the last ending and do the right thing this time.
It's bad, but it exploits the gamer mind share perfectly, and is in many ways illustrative of it.
It's interesting, because Yoko Taro's previous games have all been received as outright terrible bombs of varying degrees, but Automata had the right amount of superficial window dressing to get people to look past it despite much of the same issues still being present. I'm looking forward to seeing whether that continues for his next project, or if getting that aspect wrong + fatigue from Automata being everywhere will mean it's right back to a Drakengard 3 sort of reception.
I think Taro has potential, but so many of his ideas come off as half-cocked and at least in part that's because every one of his games is such an amalgam of messily thought out ideas. It's just a soup of so many things jarring up against one another, and this was the one that tasted the most like something edible. In many ways, he needs somebody who can filter the mess and give proper guidance so the games don't come out as such a mash of so many different things (this has been a problem for a long time now). The other piece was that the marketing was much stronger, and pushed things that gamers were sure to respond to, such as Platinum Games.
I'm much more inclined to believe that was the reason for it taking off more (+ the character and costume design) than anything to do with the game's actual ideas or narrative. What remains to be seen now is if they'll realise that was the only reason the game was successful.
Given Square's current history, I kind of doubt it. They seem to have relatively little idea of how to actually promote their own titles, much less who they're promoting them towards. That said, once they have a success they seem very intent on running it into the ground.
The, "it's not a good game, but a game with distracting fluff hiding how bad it is" isn't a take I've seen too often.
Most complaints I've seen about past games related to how much the gameplay suffered due to controls/framerate/hit detection/etc. Those seem better from prior titles based on what I've watched of those titles.
Most complaints I've seen about past games related to how much the gameplay suffered due to controls/framerate/hit detection/etc. Those seem better from prior titles based on what I've watched of those titles.
I'd have a hard time calling any of Taro's oeuvre good. He's made some interesting or outright strange things, but calling them good feels like a pretty big leap. If there was more work and some filtering put into them, they could at least be... ok. Like not great or anything but not bad either. As they stand they're just balls of ideas, haphazardly joined to one another.
That said, if one of those many things hits you in some way, I could see why people would think his games are great, but taken together they are all over the place. Platinum helping with the combat at least gave that aspect of Nier Automata more focus. In all of his games, there's always a lot of stuff there, but the resolution tends to be a mess (if there is one - frequently there isn't).
That said, if one of those many things hits you in some way, I could see why people would think his games are great, but taken together they are all over the place. Platinum helping with the combat at least gave that aspect of Nier Automata more focus. In all of his games, there's always a lot of stuff there, but the resolution tends to be a mess (if there is one - frequently there isn't).
A game doesn't have to be perfect to be good or even great; Automata is one of my favorite games of all time, but I'll readily acknowledge a host of flaws: technical issues, pandering character/costume design, unbalanced difficulty, repetition of less-interesting segments in route B, flat characters, reliance on external material, anime AF dialog/story, simplistic side quests and world design, grinding for the optional boss(es), etc.
On the other hand it's immensely fun to play (for an RPG), has amazing music, hits plot/villain points well with great pacing and style, is suitably concise, has interesting call-outs, and, well, Ending E. That's enough for me.
On the other hand it's immensely fun to play (for an RPG), has amazing music, hits plot/villain points well with great pacing and style, is suitably concise, has interesting call-outs, and, well, Ending E. That's enough for me.
I never said it had to be perfect, but you're arguing for a game that you readily admit is a hot mess. I think that's a pretty difficult contradiction to resolve. Again, as I already stated, it's easy to see a game as great if it hits things that are important to you; but I don't think that takes a very critical eye to the work.
In many ways Taro's works remind me of movies like The Evil Dead in their presentation, but they simultaneously remind me of stuff like The Room in their dialog, and it's a weird combination of a lot of things that might be fine on their own but don't really mesh into something cohesive, and you have to be really willing to give the game a lot of space to even get that far. Again, just a lot of stuff crammed into a space, wanting desperately to elicit a response, a nigh constant stream of bombast and awkwardness. For any who know it, the show it reminds me the most of though is the anime Ergo Proxy.
In many ways Taro's works remind me of movies like The Evil Dead in their presentation, but they simultaneously remind me of stuff like The Room in their dialog, and it's a weird combination of a lot of things that might be fine on their own but don't really mesh into something cohesive, and you have to be really willing to give the game a lot of space to even get that far. Again, just a lot of stuff crammed into a space, wanting desperately to elicit a response, a nigh constant stream of bombast and awkwardness. For any who know it, the show it reminds me the most of though is the anime Ergo Proxy.
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Given the critical and fan reception it's received I'd say it's arguable that those elements go beyond simply wanting to elicit a response. They are succeeding in eliciting that response for a large number of players.
I'll agree emag that the game in some ways shows it's limits, though perhaps not agree on how particular aspects affected my experience (I had no notable technical issues and don't really find issue with the character design direction for instance), but generally the sum of it's parts did work for me. I can't say I really understand where you're coming from saying things lack cohesion between what feels like an exaggeration in calling the dialogue "The Room" level or how you relate the presentation to "The Evil Dead" but in the end opinions and to each their own I guess.
All I can say is that this was a very well received game with a lot of enthusiastic fans and reviewers. Something obviously clicked with the complete package. Also I can't remember if I finished ergo proxy, but I recall it going a lot of nowhere in ways Automata thankfully failed to follow.
I am sure they are, at some level, sometimes. As I said, it's a mash of so many different things, it's unlikely you wouldn't find something to like. But taken together it's still a mess.
Yes, The Room-level dialog is an exaggeration, but I couldn't think of a better but also well-known media creation that effectively presents how awkward much of the dialog is. However, I think The Evil Dead comparison is quite apt, given its use for cinematic flare over depth, which is what I feel Nier Automata reflects, only in video games. Honestly the latter comment isn't really disparaging, I think it's rather incorrigible of Taro, and isn't really what he needs to improve on (though each of his games are definitely unique and have evolved this aspect of his work). Alternatively, perhaps if he leaned into it harder (as Sam Raimi does) he'd also find cohesion in that strength of presentation.
Ergo Proxy, much like Nier Automata, starts strong, but slows considerably, and has a third act that's all over the place. That said, lots of games, much like any other media, are well-received at time of release. History also makes most games, even many of the most well-received ones, become rather questionable in hindsight. That tends to also be the nature of creative media. It can be difficult to approach media critically when it's close and there's lots of discussion about it. Stepping back becomes difficult. That said, it's nice that people enjoyed it.
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Thanks for clarifying there, I understand where you're coming from much better and I do generally agree on that point of comparison.
This point not so much, but I get what you're saying and can only refer back to "to each their own."
Your arguments are so well reasoned until you fall back on "history will prove me right."
Automata's final route is it's strongest point. Route A in comparison is just setup.
History will prove me right
History will prove me right
That's not what the argument was about. It was about critical distance and its relationship to time.
But you are essentially saying that Automata's praise from players and critics is a byproduct of Honeymoon syndrome. Presumably you think the game's luster will fade with distance, bringing long term consensus of the game into alignment with your current negative view.
No, this is what you're reading into it. You're oversimplifying things because doing so suits your reading better.
I'll ignore the insult and try to respond in good faith- what was the point about critical distance then? It had nothing to do with Ergo Proxy because it was criticized as soon as the quality dropped off a third of the way in.
I feel like you never really have a reason why the ideas are half cocked or bad or trades cinematic (wut?) flair for narrative.
Like just saying it is doesn't mean it be. I feel like I'm this whole argument there's actually no examples taken from the game to present for the sake of the argument.
Like just saying it is doesn't mean it be. I feel like I'm this whole argument there's actually no examples taken from the game to present for the sake of the argument.
I could break it down by scenes but that honestly would take a long time and I wasn't necessarily trying to write an essay. Regardless, the opening of Nier Automata is a good example of what I mean regarding cinematic flare and depth (Kaine's cursing in the previous Nier is another example, or the dragon peeing in Drakengard 3).
I wasn't insulting you, or at least that wasn't my intent. Yes, the Ergo Proxy comment was put in during an edit I made at a later point, so admittedly the paragraph doesn't flow smoothly because it abruptly starts on one idea and ends on another. As for critical distance and history, it was intended to be a reflection on the current critical and historical approach to video games. We have phrases in game discourse like "the Dark Souls of X" but the phrase is more a quip than useful for purposes of critical examination. My criticism relates to the difficulty of finding the language and breaking down the process of video games when they are new, because doing so critically takes a fair amount of time. Reviewers of media in the immediate do not necessarily have the time to take this approach, but while other forms of media are buffeted by a long history of critical discourse at this point (film, music, literature, etc.), the same cannot be said for video games. It is simply difficult and discussions are frequently evolving because the language isn't there yet. As an example, we all knew what ludonarrative dissonance was long before we had a term for it, but that shorthand greatly aids in the ability to discuss a certain aspect of video games if all parties understand it, just like understanding auteur theory allows one to approach films from a certain perspective and analyze them from it (as well as allowing judgments regarding the creative work's place either in a certain oeuvre or film more generally, as well as how it relates to the theory). And while auteur theory can be generally applicable, its roots in film theory will remain, much like how you can use the same concept of ludonarrative dissonance in film (e.g., a film that has characters whose stated goals are very different from the goals their actions present). Video game discourse is still evolving, and still lacks a lot of the language that is unique and critical to it.
The following is only tangentially related:
A pet theory of mine is that video games do not have suspension of disbelief. We are constantly in a state of disbelief because the interaction with the media defers placement to the player (i.e., we are in control of the game, the game is not in control of us). Placement is never in question in other media, because other media never (or extremely rarely) cede control to their audience. I don't actually think this is a negative though - it forces the player to examine many aspects of the game in more and different depths than we might otherwise.
Additionally, where you are in relationship to the game is connected to your goals, rather than the goals of the creator (these goals are what make things like speedruns and glitch exhibitions possible). Thus, a lack of fixity ensures that where we are will always be where we want to be (i.e., a game cannot disinclude its player, so it can never go outside the player except when it removes them from play entirely). This can be used to rather striking effect however, because it is exceedingly obvious to the player when they themselves are not connected (given that connection is critically linked to the concept of play).
Hmm, I kinda want you to edited in that because I can think of 2 things in the opening that serves the narrative and themes very well.
As for kaine's cursing and the dragon peeing, his characters definitely aren't the most subtle when he wants to display their eccentricities, but I kinda feel like that's what the fans want. If anything I feel like automata for criticised by the fanbase for not really having that? In many ways drakengard 3 felt like he just wants to make a game about crass humour.
Also I didn't mean for you to write an essay about it, is just that without drawing from the actual object of criticism it's just kinda like a "no U" argument y'know? I'm down for some friendly arguing about nier automata anytime but we can just agree to disagree.
I mean, ok, but isn't this the exact problem you were just criticizing me for?
I agree, but that's sort of the problem, and why I said if he leaned into it harder, much like Sam Raimi's characters do in The Evil Dead, there would be more cohesion. As it is, Taro's games are constantly wavering between a strong scenic absurdity, but also intellectual references and light banter that don't go anywhere.
I... am not sure where this is really coming from. I'm not criticizing particular scenes but the whole of the game, thus I am drawing from it, just not individual pieces of it. Arguing about particular scenes tends to require being fairly exhaustive and that wasn't my goal (and even assuming we were going through this, it wouldn't necessarily lead to a criticism of the game as a whole, simply because of the focus on the scene). I would not necessarily object to spending such time for analysis, but I don't really have that amount of time right now.
Eh, not really criticising, I just don't know if you want an actual drawn out debate/argument. :P
That's kinda what I meant with criticising the whole without diving into the minutiae. For me I can't really discuss about what works and doesn't work unless we get into it but I don't really like imposing if the other party isn't willing or don't have the time for for it.
The Ergo Proxy mention got me thinking. Am I the only one that is reminded of Blue Gender when playing Automata?
Don't play Very Hard though, you die in 1 hit no matter your level.
I think it's perfectly possible to have a legitimate criticism that covers larger themes and issues without necessarily diving into the minutiae of a video game. Honestly, this happens all the time in literature reviews for a few reasons, one to avoid spoilers but another (I'd argue more significant) to be able to give the reader an impression of both strengths and flaws of the reading at a higher level. Even in a friendly debate, things like theming and cohesion are important pieces and you can't get to those without looking at the game from a view more removed from the minute to minute or even scene to scene play of the game.
Oh totally, but to me it helps to get into some of the details. Like how we just discussed about how taro's characters are and his general approach to them while talking about the differences between each entry.
But anyway this is fairly pedantic lol.
But anyway, in general terms I do kinda agree that taro kinda strikes out at a lot of different directions in each entry, but I do think that there is a general focus and narrative throughline that helps guide the player through the gimmicks he likes to use. If anything I feel like automata is probably his most focused and least gimmicky game. There's no weird sudden divergences to a resident evil style game or Diablo style, and the ones that are there are fairly consistent and makes sense contextually.
But anyway this is fairly pedantic lol.
But anyway, in general terms I do kinda agree that taro kinda strikes out at a lot of different directions in each entry, but I do think that there is a general focus and narrative throughline that helps guide the player through the gimmicks he likes to use. If anything I feel like automata is probably his most focused and least gimmicky game. There's no weird sudden divergences to a resident evil style game or Diablo style, and the ones that are there are fairly consistent and makes sense contextually.
So I am playing Path B and I am at a point in the story before 2B and Nines get separated, I have been doing some quests because I like how they talk about what is going on during said quest (well not all of them)
Am I wasting my time? Would I be able to finish these quests later on? I don't exactly enjoy Nine's playstyle but it seems some missions require his hacking
Am I wasting my time? Would I be able to finish these quests later on? I don't exactly enjoy Nine's playstyle but it seems some missions require his hacking
Just started the game. About an hour an a half in. Not liking the gameplay, dialogue or presentation so far. But I plan on digging deeper.
There are a couple quests that are locked out after the main quest sends you to the coast. Otherwise, play them at your own pace. None are necessary for enjoyment of the game, although they do help flesh out the world. FWIW, you'll eventually unlock a chapter select, so nothing is permanently missable (apart possibly from some crafting materials?).
It's not for everyone. If you're not feeling it by the end of the Amusement Park area, you probably won't enjoy the bulk of the game.
Don't worry's the game feels super werid at first. Once you reach the amusement park everything will instantly click. I promise.
Just finished route A and starting route B. I didn't do a lot of side quests because they seemed boring as shit. I plan on flying through route B but was wondering if there is anything I NEED to do in route b?
I think there was a list somewhere of worthwhile sidequests. They are gameplay-wise mostly not exceptional, but they do offer some interesting information on characters and world.
The sidequests have some of the best writing in the game and are really good at worldbuilding
For B you pretty much need to at least do
Data Analysis Freak 1 and 2
Amnesia
Game Dev Machine 1, 2 and 3 is pretty funny and interesting
The Recluse 1, 2 and 3
Heritage Of The Past gives the best spear in the game, use a guide to do it fast since it's tedious otherwise
If you didn't do Stamp Collecting in A you need to do that because it's hilarious
Wandering Couple is A and B and you should do that
Just started Route B and im having a hard time with 9s compared to 2B's combat style. Is there a recommended weapon set I should try using with 9S? I think part of the problem im having is that his triangle attack is replaced with the hacking tool and is messing me up. I have been using the hacking tool on the larger enemies and stuff, but not on the mobs.
Spears or Combat Bracers
Hold light attack to throw that spear for miles. Does high damage, pierces enemies, good for crits. Get the Usurper Spear from the Heritage Of The Past sidequest in the desert.
Get Stun and Combust chips to make hacking even more powerful. Stun makes the AoE explosion on hacking also shut enemies down for a few seconds and Combust lights them on fire for more damage.
Also delaying his second light attack switches his string to a heavy combo but it's not really useful.
Thanks! Just equipped Spear of the Usurper before you posted and have been liking it alot more than the light sword I was using.
Had no idea that Chips had an impact on the hacking minigame, so I will try and get some of those soon.
