Nintendo files multimillion-dollar lawsuit against ROM website, RomUniverse

HardRojo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,901
I'm that other user, neither or us are advocating for piracy or something.
If you can't handle people having a conversation in a discussion forum....
I'm not arguing your points at all, I'm arguing the fact that someone complains about a thread going a certain way, then single-handedly being the one making the thread go that way.
ignore my posts if they bother you?
Nah, I like my threads unfiltered.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
18,182
But what good is preservation if the public can never see it? Like yeah it’s sitting in a basement safe somewhere but its as good as lost to us if its not accessible.
It's not "sitting in a basement somewhere," that you characterize those who are shelling out their own time, effort, and money to ensure things still exist in some form as basement dwellers is insulting. Did you know that we worked for 15 years to get Sonic Xtreme? I was hunting it down back in 2002.

What good is it, is that it still exists. It lives to fight another day. Things change, perhaps one day in the future the people who granted us permission to back up the source will allow us to release it, or perhaps Sega will one day come through and officially release it in some capacity. Things which would NOT be possible if they existed on only one harddrive which eventually failed.

It's literally the difference between something existing and not existing. The idea that "preservation" extends only as far as "can I play it" is mind-bogglingly selfish.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,344
Earthbound is like Metroid Prime Trilogy.
Nintendo tried to sell it to people and made copies but it didn't sell that much.
People didn't buy it because they were chumps and then everyone and their mothers wanted the thing for some reason.
For the Trilogy it was very funny to see too.
Nintendo warned in 2008 that it was gonna be a limited edition and people still found a way to miss the game till it was released on WiiU.

I'm not arguing your points at all, I'm arguing the fact that someone complains about a thread going a certain way, then single-handedly being the one making the thread go that way.
And everything was going well so what are you trying to pull?
 

Toad King

Member
Oct 27, 2017
397
Chicago
Everyone's laughing at the paid membership for pirating (myself included) but pretty much all of these ROM sites are for-profit and get all their money from ads.
 

Hugare

Member
Aug 31, 2018
530
Nah, the "preservation" argument in 2019 doesn't stick

If you want to preserve your games so much, you can buy a virtual copy from Nintendo directly. Done, a legal copy.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,344
Nah, the "preservation" argument in 2019 doesn't stick

If you want to preserve your games so much, you can buy a virtual copy from Nintendo directly. Done, a legal copy.
On their latest system you just really need a subscription these days.
And no Earthbound Zero ain't on it but then again most people download SMW so it's not most people miss it.
Also if you want that game there's a digital copy waiting on the WiiU Eshop.
 

Velezcora

Member
Nov 16, 2017
2,193
It's not "sitting in a basement somewhere"

What good is it, is that it still exists. It lives to fight another day. Things change, perhaps one day in the future the people who granted us permission to back up the source will allow us to release it, or perhaps Sega will one day come through and officially release it in some capacity. Things which would NOT be possible if they existed on only one harddrive which eventually failed.

It's literally the difference between something existing and not existing. The idea that "preservation" extends only as far as "can I play it" is mind-bogglingly selfish.
Just because it can be released doesn’t mean it will be. My viewpoint absolutely is not selfish, I don’t care if I don’t play it as long as it is accessible for the people. Not held back because a corporation is rich enough to control laws for its benefit.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,344
Just because it can be released doesn’t mean it will be. My viewpoint absolutely is not selfish, I don’t care if I don’t play it as long as it is accessible for the people. Not held back because a corporation is rich enough to control laws for its benefit.
It can be accessed, you just have to contact the people who have the copies and see if you can see it.
I want to see the 1st Star Wars in it's original form but that doesn't mean that it's monstrous that I can't get it for free online either.
Also it's not part of the public domain so there should be no expectation that the people get to see if the owners don't want to share it either.
 

mazi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,145
And no Earthbound Zero ain't on it but then again most people download SMW so it's not most people miss it.
Also if you want that game there's a digital copy waiting on the WiiU Eshop.
but i am entitled to every single old game ever being offered to me on switch by nintendo and if not that justifies the existence of rom sites /s
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
18,182
Just because it can be released doesn’t mean it will be.
It's pretty obvious that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing without even knowing what you're talking about, because WE DID RELEASE EVERYTHING. All builds (including builds never before seen publicly or announced), data files, art assets, etc. We just didn't release the source code, at the request of he who held it last, because he feared legal repercussion.

Going on and on about not having access to source code to a project that requires a cross-products Sega Saturn dev kit to build, or an Nvidia Diamond Edge NV1 card, both insanely rare pieces of hardware, is disingenous. You literally couldn't use either of these items if you had access to them.

My viewpoint absolutely is not selfish
Your viewpoint is that it's not preserved unless you can touch it. For example, at this very moment, the source code is NOT in my hands. It's still preserved.
 

LazyLain

Member
Jan 17, 2019
1,407
But... the point of piracy is not to... pay.
I think the percentage of pirates with the mentality of “what kind of sucker pays for something that you can get for FREE?” is probably pretty low.

More often than not, it's a matter of access/convenience. For instance, the only “legit” channel to own a game like Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance is to buy a used physical copy for $100+. Inconvenient and inaccessible for many. If an illegal-but-paid option happens to strike the most appealing balance of convenience and accessibility, people will bite. For example, there are sites out there that'll sell you external hard drives preloaded with all the ROMs/emulators/frontends you could ever want, which is a convenient way for someone to have the retro library they've always dreamed of having, and it's several orders of magnitude more affordable than it'd be to buy all those games (and the hardware required to play them) legitimately.
 

Diablos

has a title.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,658
What a joke of a website, asking people to pay money for access to pirated games that no one there has the rights to distribute in the first place.

Regardless of your opinion on the need for access to ROMs this is just incredibly stupid.
 

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,162
It's literally the difference between something existing and not existing. The idea that "preservation" extends only as far as "can I play it" is mind-bogglingly selfish.
A thing exists as long as it is actually preserved and people have access to it. Something put into a vault for one billionaire to enjoy isn't 'preserved'. Also if there is only a single copy of some work and that copy is destroyed, that was not 'preservation' either.

Physical works of art that aren't computer code which can be trivially copied are recorded, scanned, etc. They are preserved, even if the original is destroyed.

Also FWIW I didn't even know you had anything Sonic Xtreme related at all. I also didn't know a real working original was in any way preserved. Was this in the last year?
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,253
It can be accessed, you just have to contact the people who have the copies and see if you can see it.
I want to see the 1st Star Wars in it's original form but that doesn't mean that it's monstrous that I can't get it for free online either.
Also it's not part of the public domain so there should be no expectation that the people get to see if the owners don't want to share it either.
No, but it DOES indeed suck that people can't go out and buy the original Star Wars how it was originally released on blu ray or any current medium.

Companies have the right to protect their IP's but damn give customers a MEANS to actually see/play them if they want to, don't just lock them down in some "vault" like Disney does with their movies.
 

Rosebud

Member
Apr 16, 2018
5,052
Nah, the "preservation" argument in 2019 doesn't stick

If you want to preserve your games so much, you can buy a virtual copy from Nintendo directly. Done, a legal copy.
To be fair they aren't selling anymore, and the only way to access your digital Wii games is hacking the console.

They really should make the games more accessible, just look at Netflix and Steam, they decreased the piracy almost overnight.
 

Velezcora

Member
Nov 16, 2017
2,193
It can be accessed, you just have to contact the people who have the copies and see if you can see it.
I want to see the 1st Star Wars in it's original form but that doesn't mean that it's monstrous that I can't get it for free online either.
Also it's not part of the public domain so there should be no expectation that the people get to see if the owners don't want to share it either.
Well I am in favor of redefining copyright law. Personally think art belongs to the people and not corporations. Not even the people who work on this stuff own it a lot of the time which doesn’t help things imo.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
18,182
A thing exists as long as it is actually preserved and people have access to it.
It is actually preserved, and people do have access to it.

Something put into a vault for one billionaire to enjoy isn't 'preserved'.
Again, what a mischaracterization. None of us are billionaires -- the exact opposite in fact -- and it's not horded by one person. That's our entire definition of preservarion: something no longer singular (and thus vulnerable) in existance anymore. It's preserved, because the data existing doesn't hinge on a single person's ability to maintain data anymore.

Also if there is only a single copy of some work and that copy is destroyed, that was not 'preservation' either.
Good thing that's that exact opposite of what happened.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,754
Everyone's laughing at the paid membership for pirating (myself included) but pretty much all of these ROM sites are for-profit and get all their money from ads.
I always felt there was a difference between actual preservation and profiting off of piracy.

I don’t know the answer to this but most of the sites just seem like it’s a way to profit.
 

snackary

Member
Mar 11, 2019
28
That's not the only point. Often it's also the only or most convenient way to get the thing you want, like if you want to play Switch or 3DS games on your PC, or if you want to be able to cheat or copy save files, etc

Game of Thrones in its early years wasn't so heavily pirated JUST because people wanted it for free, but because they didn't offer any reasnable alternative for people who didn't subscribe to cable TV
Game of Thrones was pirated more than ever in the US even after HBO Now came out. Some people just refuse to pay if there is a convenient alternative.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,344
It's pretty obvious that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing without even knowing what you're talking about, because WE DID RELEASE EVERYTHING. All builds (including builds never before seen publicly or announced), data files, art assets, etc. We just didn't release the source code, at the request of he who held it last, because he feared legal repercussion.

Going on and on about not having access to source code to a project that requires a cross-products Sega Saturn dev kit to build, or an Nvidia Diamond Edge NV1 card, both insanely rare pieces of hardware, is disingenous. You literally couldn't use either of these items if you had access to them.



Your viewpoint is that it's not preserved unless you can touch it. For example, at this very moment, the source code is NOT in my hands. It's still preserved.
Holy shit your group went above and beyond the call of duty!

No, but it DOES indeed suck that people can't go out and buy the original Star Wars how it was originally released on blu ray or any current medium.

Companies have the right to protect their IP's but damn give customers a MEANS to actually see/play them if they want to, don't just lock them down in some "vault" like Disney does with their movies.
You are not entitled to something that the owner is not willing to sell.
And really in most cases you have IP owners doing their best with the resources they have to satiate the demand.
Gaming companies now understand that people are willing to pay good money to access old games.
They're even remaking old games to help people have the best experience with their products.
Of course they can't do everything and demand is clearly not infinite so that only touch the most popular products (or in the case of FFCC, not even that).
Well I am in favor of redefining copyright law. Personally think art belongs to the people and not corporations. Not even the people who work on this stuff own it a lot of the time which doesn’t help things imo.
In the meantime in the real world, art belonging to the people doesn't mean private companies profiting from the illegal distribution of something someone else owns.
 

Plum

Banned
May 31, 2018
7,194
That's not the only point. Often it's also the only or most convenient way to get the thing you want, like if you want to play Switch or 3DS games on your PC, or if you want to be able to cheat or copy save files, etc

Game of Thrones in its early years wasn't so heavily pirated JUST because people wanted it for free, but because they didn't offer any reasnable alternative for people who didn't subscribe to cable TV
It's still piracy no matter the reasoning behind it. If you want to play Switch or 3DS games on PC then use one of the many, likely very complicated, ways to create and extract your own ROMs from legally-bought copies of the games. Nobody is entitled to their wants being met.
 

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,162
It is actually preserved, and people do have access to it.



Again, what a mischaracterization. None of us are billionaires -- the exact opposite in fact -- and it's not horded by one person. That's our entire definition of preservarion: something no longer singular (and thus vulnerable) in existance anymore. It's preserved, because the data existing doesn't hinge on a single person's ability to maintain data anymore.



Good thing that's that exact opposite of what happened.
Talking about what you said, not what you did, which I'm still not even sure what it's about.
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,782
I mean, they were pretty much asking for this. You know damn well Nintendo is a stickler for this and then you go and try to profit off of the games? That's just beyond stupid.
 

Fork

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,135
Lima, Peru
Games like Path of Radiance and Panzer Dragoon saga are literally unaffordable

Can you imagine how absurd it would be if the mad max fury road blu ray was $200?

"You arent entitled to enjoy Mad max so shut up"
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
18,182
Holy shit your group went above and beyond the call of duty!
Even before we had access to the source codes, people like Andrew77 had been working with Chris Senn for years to dig through his old harddrives and archive the data files. Ironically, Senn's original website, SXC, is now offline, but we preserved it as a mirror: http://scp.webulate.com/

JollyRoger managed to take the Nvidia NV1 build, pull out the proprietary rendering code, replace it with OpenGL code, and released it as a normal executable people can run on their modern computers.

Without revealing too much about the source of the leak, having the source code publicly available could have not only brought legal reprecussion, but could have also affected his ability to continue working in the industry.

But no, "what good is it all if xXSo-and-soXx59 on GameRoms.Com can't download the source"??
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,344
Games like Path of Radiance and Panzer Dragoon saga are literally unaffordable

Can you imagine how absurd it would be if the mad max fury road blu ray was $200?

"You arent entitled to enjoy Mad max so shut up"
Except Mad Max was infinitely more popular than your examples.
There are plenty of movies that are not accessible in Bluray and have ridiculous prices.
that doesn't mean pirating them is ok.
 

mazi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,145
Games like Path of Radiance and Panzer Dragoon saga are literally unaffordable

Can you imagine how absurd it would be if the mad max fury road blu ray was $200?

"You arent entitled to enjoy Mad max so shut up"
yeah you aren't entitled to those games if the company responsible for them isn't selling you new (physical or digital) copies and you can't afford old copies.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,253
Holy shit your group went above and beyond the call of duty!


You are not entitled to something that the owner is not willing to sell.
And really in most cases you have IP owners doing their best with the resources they have to satiate the demand.
Gaming companies now understand that people are willing to pay good money to access old games.
They're even remaking old games to help people have the best experience with their products.
Of course they can't do everything and demand is clearly not infinite so that only touch the most popular products (or in the case of FFCC, not even that).

In the meantime in the real world, art belonging to the people doesn't mean private companies profiting from the illegal distribution of something someone else owns.
Umm no, Disney is TERRIBLE at this. You should look up the whole "Disney Vault" shit that they did back with VHS movies where they literally would sell movies for a "limited time" and then "place them back in their vault" (IE stop selling them, even though they could easily keep doing that) for TEN FUCKING YEARS. Which basically did NOTHING but screw over the majority of legit fans and customers and instead fostered a "collectors" driven market that drove prices up sky high for many Disney movies and made it harder for normal/poor people to be able to afford movies to watch at home unless they bought them at retail asap when they released them.

Star Wars have been WISHING and BEGGING for an "original cut" release of Star Wars, Lucas refused and now Disney seems to be doing the same thing.

I never said people were entitled to go around them and get it, however that doesn't mean it's not an asshole and dick move to deny people a means to literally GIVE YOU MONEY for a product you once made and now for no real reason "refuse" to allow them to buy, it's never NOT going to be a dick move imo.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
18,182
Talking about what you said, not what you did, which I'm still not even sure what it's about.
What I said was

Preservation is taking steps to ensure that data won't be lost due to a single harddrive crash.
Which you characterized as:

Something put into a vault for one billionaire to enjoy isn't 'preserved'. Also if there is only a single copy of some work and that copy is destroyed, that was not 'preservation' either.
You're not even replying to what I said.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,066
This thread just illustrates how few people read threads.

Piracy exists because there is a pricing issue. The onus isn't on the copyright holder to address this but it's obvious why these sites could charge for piracy.


This shouldn't be such a huge shock if you actually took the time to read other threads on piracy.
 

Plum

Banned
May 31, 2018
7,194
Games like Path of Radiance and Panzer Dragoon saga are literally unaffordable

Can you imagine how absurd it would be if the mad max fury road blu ray was $200?

"You arent entitled to enjoy Mad max so shut up"
Maybe this would be a better argument (though it still wouldn't be good) if these sites weren't generating the vast majority of their traffic from easily-available titles both new and old.

Yeah, Path of Radiance is hella expensive and Nintendo needs to do something about it, but that's also beside the point when the site gives free access to such rare hidden gems as 'Super Mario 64' and 'The Legend of Zelda.'
 

mazi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,145
Does it actually bother you if someone were to pirate a game that isn't being sold anymore?
it doesn't bother me personally, i just think people saying fuck companies for going after rom sites is a really dumb thing to say. they're protecting their properties, as is their right.

Please stop Nintendo. You need to get your roms from somewhere so you can dump them on your NSO service.
you would think people would know by now that nintendo has copies of everything (including 3rd party games) in their archive.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
7,344
Even before we had access to the source codes, people like Andrew77 had been working with Chris Senn for years to dig through his old harddrives and archive the data files. Ironically, Senn's original website, SXC, is now offline, but we preserved it as a mirror: http://scp.webulate.com/

JollyRoger managed to take the Nvidia NV1 build, pull out the proprietary rendering code, replace it with OpenGL code, and released it as a normal executable people can run on their modern computers.

Without revealing too much about the source of the leak, having the source code publicly available could have not only brought legal reprecussion, but could have also affected his ability to continue working in the industry.

But no, "what good is it all if xXSo-and-soXx59 on GameRoms.Com can't download the source"??
Ok so quite a bit of work went into this!
I can understand why the source wouldn't want the code to be public.
I'm pretty sure if that's someone from the dev team, it's nearly akin to me keeping old files from prior work.
In that it's ok if I keep it to myself but dear god will the hammer fall on

Umm no, Disney is TERRIBLE at this. You should look up the whole "Disney Vault" shit that they did back with VHS movies where they literally would sell movies for a "limited time" and then "place them back in their vault" (IE stop selling them, even though they could easily keep doing that) which basically did NOTHING but screw over the fans and customers and instead fostered a "collectors" driven market that drove prices up sky high for movies and made it harder for normal/poor people to be able to afford movies unless they bought them at retail asap when they released them.

Star Wars have been WISHING and BEGGING for an "original cut" release of Star Wars, Lucas refused and now Disney seems to be doing the same thing.

I never said people were entitled to go around them and get it, however that doesn't mean it's not an asshole and dick move to deny people a means to literally GIVE YOU MONEY for a product you once made and now for no real reason "refuse" to allow them to buy, it's never NOT going to be a dick move imo.
Yeah but the thing is it's not even close to the situation at hand here.
A real example would be pirating Frozen or Avengers EndGame.
This is what is driving the traffic to these sites.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
18,182
Games like Path of Radiance and Panzer Dragoon saga are literally unaffordable

Can you imagine how absurd it would be if the mad max fury road blu ray was $200?

"You arent entitled to enjoy Mad max so shut up"
Just because something isn't currently available, doesn't mean it won't ever be. People downloading roms of "too expensive" games devalues their worth. You see it on sites like these all the time, where you'll see companies make their old games available only for people to become incredulous and be like "Charging $25 for a 10 year old game?!" For a company like sega, something like PDS still holds a lot of value, and if it ever gets remade, that value will be why. There is much less incentive to put in a lot of work to re-release something -- you know, what several in this topic are claiming is actual preservation -- if people will just pirate it instead.
 

LazyLain

Member
Jan 17, 2019
1,407
yeah you aren't entitled to those games if the company responsible for them isn't selling you new (physical or digital) copies and you can't afford old copies.
True, but the mentality against piracy is that the people responsible for making the game are entitled to payment for their work.

If there’s no legitimate avenue to do that, what is the case against piracy then?
 

Meatwad

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,527
USA
Well I am in favor of redefining copyright law. Personally think art belongs to the people and not corporations. Not even the people who work on this stuff own it a lot of the time which doesn’t help things imo.
No art belongs to the artist. People should be duly compensated for the work they do. Stop paying artists for their work and watch how fast art itself disappears