Nintendo fucked up Fire Emblem Characters in Smash.

[Deleted member 32135]

To quote what I said elsewhere...

While alternate costumes are appreciated, they're just that, alternate costumes. They're basically consolation prizes, not unlike Injustice 2's Premier Skins (John Stewart, Black Lightning, Vixen, etc.). They're still nice, but they're far from sufficient.

In Dimitri's case, as much as I like his story arc, he's just another white guy (the last thing Smash needs right now). I mentioned Edelgard & Claude because, in addition to being unique mechanically, they'd help with Smash Ultimate's gender & ethnic diversity problem (respectively).

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I know why you named Edelgard and Claude, and I am implying the problem for some people here is not Byleth as a fire emblem character, it's just that he is a white. That's why Dimitri also gets forgotten by the people who complaint about Byleth, despite not having any sense to put one lord and forget about the other two. So at the end Sakurai chose the only character that can represent the whole game in its own (who are a man and a woman!!) and gave them a moveset based on the three lords relics.

What Smash needs are new characters with diverse and creative gameplay mechanics to keep the game fresh.

However, let's push the Byleth is another Marth just because of the hair colour.

 

[NioA]

I mean I can think of 2 reasons to choose Edelgard or Claude over Dimitri.

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If you're referring to representation for women and people of colour, then put Elma from Xenoblade X so we have both.
In any case doesn't seem like Sakurai cares about these things.

One, I think the "anime swordsman" complaint gets wrapped up with the "Fire Emblem swordsman" complaint. It's not always the same people saying both things.

Two, Sora, Dante and Travis all are a lot more distinct than your average Fire Emblem lord. So despite being anime styled (Dante hardly counts these days, I feel) they all have personalities and wouldn't simply blend in with the caped, pretty swordsmen of the Fire Emblem series.



Chrom and Lucina can and should be brought up. Even if an echo doesn't take as much work as a full character to add, it does take as much work as an echo to add. I think there could've been a lot of interesting echo picks that weren't Chrom. He's an echo of an "echo." Also, I don't know how you'd justify getting rid of Marth. Ike kind of gets immunity since he's been in the the series since before the FE bloat. Roy was a Smash 4 DLC choice that always was pretty lame (two of Smash 4's DLC were FE charactes, one being a clone.) But considering this Smash is about having every fighter, the talk of getting rid of one doesn't really matter.

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I'm not saying you're wrong, but as you said echoes fighters require a different kind of work behind them, something we never saw in this fighter pass. Byleth is a new character, not someone else's echo.
And the last line you wrote concludes everything about the presence of the others anyway.

A lot of the "lord" type characters could probably be coalesced into a single character with multiple altnerate costumes like the Hero or Bowser Jr.

Spoiler

You could make an argument for Edelgard, considering she's either the protagonist or one of the main antagonists for each route. But, yeah, Byleth is the connecting thread in 3Houses and makes the most sense.

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Spoiler

You're definitely right, besides Edelgard is probably the most popular character of the game anyway. Having her as a FE antagonist would have been cool, but for everyone else who didn't play the game (thus not knowing this details of hers) doesn't make much sense picking a main character and not the protagonist, right?
She would fit well for this, but someone else could bring to the table some other reasons to choose Dimitri or (especially) Claude. In Sakurai's place I would have done the same.

Just sayin', I like (male) Byleth's design and the moveset is very cool (probably will buy) but as a protagonist of the game he/she sucks and the three lords are way better characterized.

 

[Kewlmyc]

Byleth is fine since they actually represent the weapon triangle + bows now.

The actual problem I would say is that due to the way the games and characters work, each of the characters are very similar design wise. Blue hair lord with a sword and cape describes half of the FE characters (Marth, Lucina, Ike, Chrom). From the ones who are left, you still have an assortment of capes, blue hair, or albino hair. They all tend to just blend together ascetically compared to say, the Mario or Pokemon representatives. It's what happens when each game in the series introduces a new cast of characters, Sakurai/Nintendo's tendencies to pick the protagonist of the games, and FE's tendencies to make the main character a "lord" class, who have the same design template every game.

That doesn't get into the actual combat. Most of the characters borrow moves from each other (Marth, Roy, Lucina, Chrom, Ike kinda), with all but 2 of them having a counter move as the down B. Despite Sakurai stating the reasoning for this in the latest smash direct, it doesn't help with all the characters feeling "samey" to a lot of the gaming audience. Robin, Corrin, and Byleth all have unique play styles and moves that make them stand apart at least, Robin and Byleth even more so.

Ultimately, I'm fine with Byleth's inclusion as a 3H rep was inevitable in a season 2, and I feel they have a more unique playstyle than what Edelgard, Dimitri, or Claude would provide by themselves. Byleth's personality, if you can call it that, is way worse than the 3 characters I mentioned, but I like what they did with their moveset. I am super glad they didn't just have him/her use just the sword. I was initially disappointed though. It's just unfortunate that it had to come at the end of a season pass that had been nothing but 3rd party characters that represent new franchises to Smash. It also doesn't help that Nintendo characters like Rex or ARMS characters didn't make it in due to time constraints, but Byleth had no problem despite being released just last year. In hindsight, if this reveal was Rex, I guarantee not as many people would be mad. I would have saved Byleth for the middle of DLC season 2.

In a Smash 6, if we were going to start doing cuts, I feel that Marth, Ike, Robin, and Byleth, with Corrin as DLC later on, would be the best way to represent the entire franchise up to this point.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

It's damn good art.

Maybe they should add one of his Daemon x Machina characters...

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Not gonna happen, would be cool though.

 

[Deleted member 6730]

No one is mystified at why they chose Byleth. Just pointing out that the lords are all main characters as well—Edelgard arguably the most important to the narrative on all routes, even more than Byleth.

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Doesn't matter if Edelgard has more plot importance, Byleth's still the main character because it's ultimately their POV you're sharing and let's face it it's the decision that makes the most sense.

If you're tired of Fire Emblem MCs always being swordsmen, take it up with the original creators, not the guy organizing the crossover.

 

[rebelcrusader]

Only one way to fix this

Remove all fire emblem characters from smash

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I know why you named Edelgard and Claude, and I am implying the problem for some people here is not Byleth as a fire emblem character, it's just that he is a white guy. That's why Dimitri also gets forgotten by the people who complaint about Byleth, despite not having any sense to put one lord and forget about the other two. So at the end Sakurai chose the only character that can represent the whole game in its own and gave him a moveset based on the three lords relics.

What Smash needs are new characters with diverse and creative gameplay mechanics to keep the game fresh.

However, let's push the Byleth is another Marth just because of the hair colour.

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Not really sure Byleth is supposed to be coded as white TBH. Most anime characters are supposed to be seen as Japanese.

 

[Psittacus]

No one is mystified at why they chose Byleth. Just pointing out that the lords are all main characters as well—Edelgard arguably the most important to the narrative on all routes, even more than Byleth.

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Both the structure of the game and the marketing make it very clear that Three Houses is ultimately Edelgard's story

 

[¡ B 0 0 P !]

If you're tired of Fire Emblem MCs always being swordsmen, take it up with the original creators, not the guy organizing the crossover.

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The guy doing the crossover didn't have to choose another FE lord over Springman, the Astral Chain cop, Dixie Kong, Ring Fit Lady, etc.

 

[Lulu]

They should have had Hector in ages ago

 

[ryseing]

A villain of some sort would have been nice, and Black Knight fits the bill of being recognizable and different. Plus, he has an easy alt skin.

 

[Deleted member 33533]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but as you said echoes fighters require a different kind of work behind them, something we never saw in this fighter pass. Byleth is a new character, not someone else's echo.
And the last line you wrote concludes everything about the presence of the others anyway.

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Yeah, I don't really have a problem with Roy being back consider "everyone is here." Chrom doesn't really have that justification though. He was apparently too boring and similar to Marth/Ike to be in Smash 4 but now they added him and he's just Marth with one Ike-like move? I feel like they could've considered another echo like Shadow or Dixie Kong or something. And yeah, that doesn't count Byleth of course. I didnt' say he was an echo.

Not really sure Byleth is supposed to be coded as white TBH. Most anime characters are supposed to be seen as Japanese.

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I feel like in a game that has very heavy European, medieval themes with characters that have very European names, if they look white, they're probably white. When Fire Emblem wants you to know a character is coded Japanese, they usually really make sure you know. Just look at Say'ri in Awakening and how her being Asian and foreign to all the other characters is a big part of her characterization and also just Hoshido. Just like the entirety of Hoshido.

 

[Imran]

Only one way to fix this

Remove all fire emblem characters from smash

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Genuinely surprised this hasn't been a rallying cry for the usual types to demand Sakurai be removed again

 

[Tochtli79]

add dimitri: people are upset bc it's another white dude. those that played CF are also upset it's not edelgard
add edelgard: people that played any route other than CF are upset because edelgard is a dipshit whose stans think does no wrong
add claude: people that played BL or CF are confused because who the fuck is claude? also people that get mad about swordsmen are mad because you can't make an entire moveset out of failnaught so he'd have sword of begalta also.

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Add Decidueye: can't make a whole moveset for an archer owl so he gets Mewtwo's Shadow Ball and Lucario's Double Team also.
Add Primarina: people who chose the other starters get upset because "it's too girly" and also it's not Decidueye.
Add Incineroar: people are upset bc it's another fire starter.

Solution: add Dedenne

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Yeah, I don't really have a problem with Roy being back consider "everyone is here." Chrom doesn't really have that justification though. He was apparently too boring and similar to Marth/Ike to be in Smash 4 but now they added him and he's just Marth with one Ike-like move? I feel like they could've considered another echo like Shadow or Dixie Kong or something. And yeah, that doesn't count Byleth of course. I didnt' say he was an echo.


I feel like in a game that has very heavy European, medieval themes with characters that have very European names, if they look white, they're probably white. When Fire Emblem wants you to know a character is coded Japanese, they usually really make sure you know. Just look at Say'ri in Awakening and how her being Asian and foreign to all the other characters is a big part of her characterization and also just Hoshido. Just like the entirety of Hoshido.

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Marth is coded Japanese though, as are many other characters in the series. The series uses medieval European trappings but that alone is not enough to claim all characters are 'white', especially not when an anime art style is used.

There is a difference between a fictional place being based on Japan (Hoshido) and every character being white just because the fictional place is based on medieval Europe.

 

[Sesha]

I think Byleth looks fun, and the Smash team clearly tried to incorporate more of Fire Emblem's various weapon classes through them. I think they managed to juggle the challenge of having another main character, including more female characters and more gameplay variety pretty well. The trailer addressed the swordsman (emphasis on man) complaints, so it seems clear to me they were aware of those complaints.

I'm always a bit sad I'll never see my girls Titania, Hinoka or Oboro in a game, or characters from games I love that I think would make fun or even amazing Smash chars, but it is what it is. Smash is a balancing act of series representation and fun gameplay, and covering every base is an impossible task. I think more ethnic and racial diversity is a thing they seriously should tackle, though. Unfortunately Smash games' main characters usually being either white, Japanese, fantasy-white/Japanese and male, or non-human is an issue reflective of the industry itself, so it's a tough nut to crack. But I strongly feel characters like Elma, Impa (Hyrule Warriors version, ideally) and Twintelle should be DLC or make it into a future game. At least the first two. There's speculation of BOTW Zelda being part of FP2, but I don't think we need another version of the same character. Twintelle might be harder given she's not a main character, even if she's very popular.

 

[Neoxon]

I know why you named Edelgard and Claude, and I am implying the problem for some people here is not Byleth as a fire emblem character, it's just that he is white. That's why Dimitri also gets forgotten by the people who complaint about Byleth, despite not having any sense to put one lord and forget about the other two. So at the end Sakurai chose the only character that can represent the whole game in its own (who are a man and a woman!!) and gave them a moveset based on the three lords relics.

What Smash needs are new characters with diverse and creative gameplay mechanics to keep the game fresh.

However, let's push the Byleth is another Marth just because of the hair colour.

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Diverse & creative gameplay mechanics aren't hard to come by, this is Sakurai we're talking about. It's just that with options like Edelgard & Claude, going with the umpteenth white-male-by-default gender-choice avatar (I.E. Byleth) is a disappointment that only adds to the existing problems of the roster. I know many are disappointed over there being yet another Fire Emblem character, but as I said, that's not where my disappointment comes from (probably because I loved Three Houses to pieces).

 

[Garlador]

Why everyone in FE gotta look like a supermodel? Where the ugly dudes at?

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Spoiler

the ugly people are the villains

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I actually am quite fond of many of the non-traditional non-beautiful heroes.

I think Fire Emblem just needs to make more of its "main protagonists" characters that aren't default blue-haired swordsman. Robin and Corrin both fit that role and don't entirely come across as Marth derivatives.

 

[Deleted member 32135]

Not really sure Byleth is supposed to be coded as white TBH. Most anime characters are supposed to be seen as Japanese.

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I don't even know. I recently read here that Claude is a POC so whatever.

 

[Kewlmyc]

Not really sure Byleth is supposed to be coded as white TBH. Most anime characters are supposed to be seen as Japanese.

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Eh, I'd say it depends more on the setting than anything. You can tell when a setting is heavily based on Europe or Asia for example. Considering Fates and what not, I think it's really easy to see when a FE character is supposed to represent Japan.

3H's setting is clearly medieval Europe like most of the FEs, so I think most people would consider the characters European. Could Byleth still be Japanese? Sure, but nothing in the script seems to point to Byleth or his/her parents being from a "foreign" land.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I don't even know. I recently read here that Claude is a POC so whatever.

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He is, he has dark skin and his entire storyline revolves around being a different race than the rest of Fodlan.

 

[Deleted member 33533]

Marth is coded Japanese though, as are many other characters in the series. The series uses medieval European trappings but that alone is not enough to claim all characters are 'white', especially not when an anime art style is used.

There is a difference between a fictional place being based on Japan (Hoshido) and every character being white just because the fictional place is based on medieval Europe.

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Is Marth actually coded Japanese though? What exactly about Marth does this?

 

[Deleted member 6730]

The guy doing the crossover didn't have to choose another FE lord over Springman, the Astral Chain cop, Dixie Kong, Ring Fit Lady, etc.

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Except FE outsold all those games and is more popular.

Dixie will come soon though. Just you wait.

 

[Deleted member 33533]

I actually am quite fond of many of the non-traditional non-beautiful heroes.

I think Fire Emblem just needs to make more of its "main protagonists" characters that aren't default blue-haired swordsman. Robin and Corrin both fit that role and don't entirely come across as Marth derivatives.

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Excuse me, are you trying to say Basilio is not the most beautiful man you've ever laid eyes on?

 

[Adulfzen]

what if Arc Sys just made a Fire Emblem fighting game, you'll never get what you want with Sakurai current philosophy on how he chooses characters.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Eh, I'd say it depends more on the setting than anything. You can tell when a setting is heavily based on Europe or Asia for example. Considering Fates and what not, I think it's really easy to see when a FE character is supposed to represent Japan.

3H's setting is clearly medieval Europe like most of the FEs, so I think most people would consider the characters European. Could Byleth still be Japanese? Sure, but nothing in the script seems to point to Byleth or his/her parents being from a "foreign" land.

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I mean you are ignoring like every single game in the series with this take. Nearly every single one uses medieval fantasy settings as a base, but tons of those characters from those settings and games are coded Japanese.

Awakening was the first game to use an explicitly Japanese-style setting, but not the first game to have obviously Japanese coded characters. Marth and Lyn are obvious examples of characters meant to be read as Japanese

 

[Imran]

Byleth does have a turn at some point that makes him not a blue-haired swordsman. It's just that that character is basically Robin in terms of Smash representation.

The thing with the weapon triangle is actually legitimately clever and it sucks that people are ignoring it because they're disappointed for their other reasons.

 

[VPplaya]

Yeah not sure why this needs repeating but Nintendo decided the dlc roster at least by December 2018, months before even the advertising for 3 Houses really started. Despite the current popularity of the lords, back then the safe choice was the main character. Additionally, adding one lord would alienate the fans of the others. Byleth is a safe middle-ground.

While the OP may not be this way, people who hate on FE rep have said for years that they wished for FE reps that were different classes or used different weapons besides swords. When Robin, essentially a mage rep, was added people still complained about FE reps. When Corrin, who fights by transforming appendages into dragon limbs, was added people still complained about FE reps. Now when Byleth was revealed, who fights by using a large pool of new weapon types for smash, people still complained about FE reps. It was never about fighting diversity. Awakening -> 3 Houses have clearly cemented FE into being a major pillar IP for Nintendo. So people need to stop complaining, because just like with Pokemon we should expect the new protagonist of the latest FE to be added.

The only reasonable criticism I can see is perhaps they should have waited for a 3 Houses rep till Fighter Pack 2, where by then Nintendo would have a better idea on which 3 Houses character was the most popular post-release.

 

[Neoxon]

Byleth does have a turn at some point that makes him not a blue-haired swordsman. It's just that that character is basically Robin in terms of Smash representation.

The thing with the weapon triangle is actually legitimately clever and it sucks that people are ignoring it because they're disappointed for their other reasons.

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I'm honestly kinda surprised that Byleth doesn't have some kind of ability to turn back time like they do in Three Houses, but I guess they wanted to avoid giving them anything even remotely similar to a counter (plus it'd be broken as hell). But yeah, borrowing the house leaders' Heroes' Relics was a smart move in terms of representing the weapon triangle (I even recall having such an idea a while back, though as more of a stance-switching implementation).

 

[Wil Grieve]

Okay, but if Sakurai managed to know about fans wanting Ridley, he must've gotten wind of the backlash from Byleth to reconsider any future FE characters.

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The dude literally said after adding Corrin that he thought it was overkill on the FE characters

And then he turns around and gives us the most generic fucking Fire Emblem character of them all

At least Corrin has the whole dragon transformation thing. Not to say Fates was a good game, it really really fucking wasn't

 

[Deleted member 32135]

Diverse & creative gameplay mechanics aren't hard to come by, this is Sakurai we're talking about. It's just that with options like Edelgard & Claude, going with the umpteenth white-male-by-default gender-choice avatar (I.E. Byleth) is a disappointment that only adds to the existing problems of the roster. I know many are disappointed over there being yet another Fire Emblem character, but as I said, that's not where my disappointment comes from (probably because I loved Three Houses to pieces).

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Problem is when you are pushing too hard for females or POC representation that you end with non sensical picks like your Twintelle avatar.

Twintelle will never be an ARMS choice for Smash for obvious reasons. However, some people on ERA is pushing for her just because she is a female and a person of color, despite being a terrible representative for a game called ARMS.

I can get behind of picks like Jill for example, but I can't understand picks like Twintelle that doesn't make any sense having the perfect tandem in Springman and Ribbongirl. It's setting for disappointment really.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Is Marth actually coded Japanese though? What exactly about Marth does this?

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White characters in anime have very specific design tropes. Marth uses the design tropes that are typical to Japanese coded characters, not white coded ones. Also he was created as a cypher for the Japanese player, his games were never developed with a US audience in mind. Hell, he still speaks Japanese even in Smash.

 

[Neoxon]

Problem is when you are pushing too hard for females or POC representation that you end with non sensical picks like your Twintelle avatar.

Twintelle will never be an ARMS choice for Smash for obvious reasons. However, some people on ERA is pushing for her just because she is a female and a person of color, despite being a terrible representative for a game called ARMS.

I can get behind of picks like Jill for example, but I can't understand picks like Twintelle that doesn't make any sense having the perfect tandem in Springman and Ribbongirl.

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To be fair, Twintelle & Min Min basically dethroned Spring Man & Ribbon Girl in popularity, with the former starting to be pushed over Ribbon Girl as the leading lady.

It's unlikely, true, but not impossible. And yeah, I was pushing for Jill & would still be doing that if it weren't for the RE spirit event killing those dreams.

 

[DrMario]

"Nintendo really messed up smash DLC characters" they said as they kept playing smash and kept buying DLC characters.
Sakurai just gave a fantastic lineup of characters no one expected to see like Joker, Hero, and Banjo (don't care for terry personally) and then y'all gonna react like this. Also, he's clearly using main FE characters.

 

[Zalman]

I think Byleth looks awesome. I was actually more upset about Chrom. He comes from a game that already has two other reps. That's kind of overkill.

 

[Garrod Ran]

Hell, he still speaks Japanese even in Smash.

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Ultimate actually gave him his english VA, Roy got his too

 

[Mizeris Lutz Ether Lanai]

Nobody knows who those characters are OP.

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Roy's game didn't exist yet when he was put in Smash. It's still never been released outside Japan. Hardly anybody knows who the Ice Climbers are, they're from a nothing game from 1984 nobody played. How many players were familiar with Palutena? She wasn't even a playable character. It shouldn't be about the prominence of the character as much as how interesting they are, Smash is more than capable of getting people attached to characters they don't know.

 

[Oregano]

If only there was a Yusuke Kozaki character they could add to Smash...

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Same energy

 

[rayngiraffe]

Sometimes i swear that even if FF or DQ were to be first-party, people will find reasons to dump on each and every one of them.
Trying to find reasons isn't the point- its all about tribalism about who gets in and who doesn't.

 

[Deleted member 32135]

To be fair, Twintelle & Min Min basically dethroned Spring Man & Ribbon Girl in popularity, with the former starting to be pushed over Ribbon Girl as the leading lady.

It's unlikely, true, but not impossible. And yeah, I was pushing for Jill & would still be doing that if it weren't for the RE spirit event killing those dreams.

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Ok, but a popularity contest doesn't mean they are the right choice. The problem here if you want is not Sakurai but the arms dev team if you like. Sakurai won't put the only character that doesn't fight with the arms in smash as the representative of a game called Arms. That's easy to see why.

I am pushing for Jill also, but because I think she is the best representative for Resident Evil along with Leon.

 

[Garrod Ran]

Sometimes i swear that even if FF or DQ were to be first-party, people will find reasons to dump on each and every one of them.
Trying to find reasons isn't the point- its all about tribalism about who gets in and who doesn't.

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Fire Emblem is owned by Nintendo, it is first party

 

[lambdaupsilon]

Add Decidueye: can't make a whole moveset for an archer owl so he gets Mewtwo's Shadow Ball and Lucario's Double Team also.
Add Primarina: people who chose the other starters get upset because "it's too girly" and also it's not Decidueye.
Add Incineroar: people are upset bc it's another fire starter.

Solution: add Dedenne

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wow sun and moon had 4 routes? i didn't know that. you sure showed me

 

[Disclaimer]

Doesn't matter if Edelgard has more plot importance, Byleth's still the main character because it's ultimately their POV you're sharing and let's face it it's the decision that makes the most sense.

If you're tired of Fire Emblem MCs always being swordsmen, take it up with the original creators, not the guy organizing the crossover.

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That's just willfully ignoring the options on the table. There are plenty of Lords—Fire Emblem's main characters, whether there's an avatar or not—who do not use swords, or who could have flashier playstyles even with a sword.

While I personally rebuke the notion of a series being "overrepresented," Smash has, like it or not, had some misfires on its execution of Fire Emblem representation, that have made many of them feel unnecessarily "same-y."

Ike could use his father's axe in addition to his sword—which itself is rather neutered compared to what we see it do in-series with its ranged shockwaves. Alternatively, they could have gone with the Black Knight for Tellius representation, who would have been more appropriate for the slow and powerful archetype, and who would have been visually different.

They could have had Hector, an axe-user with lightning attacks from Armads. They could have had Lyn, a fast mirror imaging swordswoman with bow attacks as well. They could have had Micaiah, a mage wielding light and healing magic, perhaps with bird companion attacks.

Awakening didn't need 3 representatives, two of whom are clones of Marth. Corrin is unique enough from Fates, but largely reviled as a character—they could have gone with Azura instead, a lance-user with fluid dance attacks, songs, and water magic.

Edelgard, herself the most important character to Three Houses' overall narrative, could have paired Aymr's raw power with her dark magic spell list—she could technically have even used [strike]Byleth's Sword of the Creator[/strike]. (Keep in mind I don't object to Byleth's inclusion and think they have a cool playstyle, but even with Byleth some things were left on the table, such as their iconic Divine Pulse rewind time ability.)

Now, some of this happened due to timing and the "everyone's here" philosophy, so that's understandable, I'm just saying "Fire Emblem MCs are all swordsmen" is patently false.

 

[Crushed]

This entire thing happened because EVERYONE IS HERE means that Roy and Lucina had to come back, and because Echo Fighters meant that Lucina and Chrom were even considered for slots (yes, I know that Lucina didn't start as an echo fighter per se, but she was going to be a costume for Marth before they decided to slightly alter her properties and thus changed her to a character). If it wasn't for those, then we'd have Marth (the nimble classic swordsman lord who's the prototype for the series), Ike (the slow but powerful physical heavy), Robin (the slow mage who implements the weapon durability/magic charges mechanics from the games), Corrin (a dragon with projectiles and a lance), and Byleth (weapon triangle + bow user with a whip attack and no counter). Instead we also have Fire Marth, Long Haired Marth, and IkeMarth.

I will say also that yeah, Byleth getting the weapon triangle instead of more Three Houses-specific stuff battalion gambits or the Divine Pulse is the weird part. The "Pokemon Trainer" Byleth concept where they command the House Lords would have been a shit ton more work but would have represented it more as well; as it stands, you could tell that everyone was expecting the beat-up Byleth returning to Sothis scene to be the introduction of a more "bullshit factor" mechanic in-line with the other Fighter's Pass characters (Joker's Rebel Gauge, Hero's MP Gauge and menu, Banjo's Golden Feathers, Terry's Super Specials).

 

[Deleted member 33533]

White characters in anime have very specific design tropes. Marth uses the design tropes that are typical to Japanese coded characters, not white coded ones. Also he was created as a cypher for the Japanese player, his games were never developed with a US audience in mind. Hell, he still speaks Japanese even in Smash.

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What you've stated about anime is not a consistent rule and so it's not really accurate to simply state that Marth is Japanese. I feel like when you say a character is coded to be a certain race or ethnicity, there needs to be actual factors playing into that. To me, the fact that Marth has a European name and lives in a very European-esqe world, he's coded white. That doesn't mean that Japanese players can't see him as Japanese but I don't think there's anything written in stone saying he's Japanese so it's weird to see you say it so matter of fact. I think once Fire Emblem started giving us characters clearly coded as Japanese such as the Hoshidans and the Chon'sinans, it's even more clear.

Also I would wager the reason the Japan-exclusive Fire Emblem games used Japanese language because Japanese people in Japan mostly speak Japanese. Marth speaking Japanese in Smash was always either a nod to his games being Japanese exclusive or the devs just not bothering to give him an English voice because he was not in any games in English speaking territories. It's not exactly surprising that nowadays where we get games with Marth in them that we now have him speaking English in Smash.

Same energy

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Hahahaha! Oh my god, you're right.

 

[Kewlmyc]

I mean you are ignoring like every single game in the series with this take. Nearly every single one uses medieval fantasy settings as a base, but tons of those characters from those settings and games are coded Japanese.

Awakening was the first game to use an explicitly Japanese-style setting, but not the first game to have obviously Japanese coded characters. Marth and Lyn are obvious examples of characters meant to be read as Japanese

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I think basing a character's ethnicity on the setting is more accurate than basing it off an art style. Everything about the notion that "oh, it's an anime art style, so the character is Japanese" is ludicrous, imo. Especially when everything else in the setting, like names and what not, support the characters not being a native of Japan. The best I could say is that they might be of Japanese descent, but there's no evidence of that either.

People can see whatever they want in characters, they're fictional. It's fine. I just think it's silly to say "eh, they're not white because it's an anime artstyle" despite the setting saying otherwise.

 

[catboy]

A Three Houses rep makes sense. The problem is the 3DS overrepresentation, when we still don't have ARMS or Xenoblade 2.

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no ARMS is fine

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Ultimate actually gave him his english VA, Roy got his too

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Ah ok, but prior to Ultimate he used Japanese VA.

 

[rayngiraffe]

Fire Emblem is owned by Nintendo, it is first party

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My point was moreso that even if Sakurai had full access to FF/DQ's repertoire of characters, people will find a reason to complain even if we had Cloud/Sephiroth/Erdrick/Lightning

That's just willfully ignoring the options on the table. There are plenty of Lords—Fire Emblem's main characters, whether there's an avatar or not—who do not use swords, or who could have flashier playstyles even with a sword.

While I personally rebuke the notion of a series being "overrepresented," Smash has, like it or not, had some misfires on its execution of Fire Emblem representation, that have made many of them feel unnecessarily "same-y."

Ike could use his father's axe in addition to his sword—which itself is rather neutered compared to what we see it do in-series with its ranged shockwaves. Alternatively, they could have gone with the Black Knight for Tellius representation, who would have been more appropriate for the slow and powerful archetype, and who would have been visually different.

They could have had Hector, an axe-user with lightning attacks from Armads. They could have had Lyn, a fast mirror imaging swordswoman with bow attacks as well. They could have had Micaiah, a mage wielding light and healing magic, perhaps with bird companion attacks.

Awakening didn't need 3 representatives, two of whom are clones of Marth. Corrin is unique enough from Fates, but largely reviled as a character—they could have gone with Azura instead, a lance-user with fluid dance attacks, songs, and water magic.

Edelgard, herself the most important character to Three Houses' overall narrative, could have paired Aymr's raw power with her dark magic spell list—she could technically have even used [strike]Byleth's Sword of the Creator[/strike]. (Keep in mind I don't object to Byleth's inclusion and think they have a cool playstyle, but even with Byleth some things were left on the table, such as their iconic Divine Pulse rewind time ability.)

Now, some of this happened due to timing and the "everyone's here" philosophy, so that's understandable, I'm just saying "Fire Emblem MCs are all swordsmen" is patently false.

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2 of which are echoes and fit the project timeline (who happen to be quite popular), Ike was largely associated with Ragnell, and adding characters because they so happened to run "different weapons" isn't that strong of an argument considering that would eat massively into resources (how are you going to add Hector/Lyn/Miccy? When are you going to add them, brawl or smash 4? Are they better choices than say Ike in Brawl, or do they justify a spot over other non FE characters?)

I think Sakurai's direction has largely been good given the circumstances, and the fact that he immediately tried to make unique FE characters after Ike does say a lot.

 

[1000% H]

, you could tell that everyone was expecting the beat-up Byleth returning to Sothis scene to be the introduction of a more "bullshit factor" mechanic in-line with the other Fighter's Pass characters (Joker's Rebel Gauge, Hero's MP Gauge and menu, Banjo's Golden Feathers, Terry's Super Specials).

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I like how later on Sakurai talked about how they like to introduce new gameplay styles with each new character, showing off the characters using their gimmick, and then when it gets to Byleth you just see them die from the stage moving because they were charging the bow.