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Nintendo hits popular homebrew YouTuber, Modern Vintage Gamer, with numerous copyright claims forcing him to stop making Switch homebrew videos.

Oct 27, 2017
140
Clearly it isn't common knowledge and such topics should be put more upfront for normal people. Instead many get overall defensive every time and attack people with less knowledge of the topic (like me). Also every homebrew develop can do its part and it becomes a bigger message, when everybody works together.
But your post was on the offensive. Defense is a reaction to that. You weren't asking for information or to be educated, you were directly accusing the homebrew scene of being "enablers" and "guilty of inaction", all while making wrong assertions about homebrew developers not trying to prevent piracy. You even put blame on us that Nintendo is pursuing illegitimate means to strong-arm an innocent creator around. Of course you'll get a negative reaction to that!
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,912
London, UK
Look, im no corporate shill by any means and i think Nintendo's attitude towards youtubers is generally moroninc at best

However, wanting to remove videos that show directly how to hack their current console doesnt seem unreasonable. Just because there isn't a specific way to takedown the video for this reason so they have to use something else seems a bit weird to have a go at them about.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,527
Halifax, NS
Xbox dont have the same heavy hitter IPs nor the "culture" around that "your hardware is shit and so im entitled to pirate your games cause fuck you for never slashing down price" that many seems to fly with when they dip into piracy on Nintendo Devices.
That's not their point tho.

Homebrew doesn't automatically enable piracy because the means of enabling homebrew does not necessarily circumvent the system's security measures for playing retail games. There has to be work done beyond that to get piracy happening, it's not just a "thing" that becomes enabled, outside of extremely poorly implemented security features in the first place.

You are kidding yourself if you don't think there are people out there trying to crack the XBO, heavy hitter IPs be damned. It's just so far Microsoft has been luckier than most that no one has released an exploit. I wouldn't be shocked if people in the scene already were aware of one or two, they just like to privately hold on to that knowledge for as long as possible.
 
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PrimeBeef

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,840
exactly.
do i think homebrew equals piracy? no
do i think any company would be opposed to video tutorials teaching people how to hack their hardware in a way that also enables piracy? yes
This is all that needs to be said.

Nintendo is in the right here. There may not have been another way to get the videos taken down quickly other than DMCA. Maybe there needs to another set of rules for stuff like this.
 
Oct 27, 2017
140
Look, im no corporate shill by any means and i think Nintendo's attitude towards youtubers is generally moroninc at best

However, wanting to remove videos that show directly how to hack their current console doesnt seem unreasonable. Just because there isn't a specific way to takedown the video for this reason so they have to use something else seems a bit weird to have a go at them about.
exactly.
do i think homebrew equals piracy? no
do i think any company would be opposed to video tutorials teaching people how to hack their hardware in a way that also enables piracy? yes
I don't think people are confused about the fact that Nintendo wants those videos gone or why they want them gone. They've made it abundantly clear that they are against uses of Nintendo products they don't officially allow, even if used for legal means. The argument is against them having the right or option to. Given the fact that hacking your own devices is entirely legal and within a consumer's rights, it's not easy to justify information about it being censored. Worse yet, the flagged videos were covering scene news, not tutorials.
 

Asuka3+1

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 6, 2019
491
That's not their point tho.

Homebrew doesn't automatically enable piracy because the means of enabling homebrew does not necessarily circumvent the system's security measures for playing retail games. There has to be work done beyond that to get piracy happening, it's not just a "thing" that becomes enabled, outside of extremely poorly implemented security features in the first place.
I mean sure, just unlocking the console dont magically let you run games (that were CFW and booters come in and what dedicated teams for piracy kick in) BUT, even before that, a console do need to be cracked and that legs work is mostly done by people wanting to implement HB.

also, regarding "thats not the point". well, it kinda is, the reason why you dont see the same level of piracy/ emulation on other devices (currently, PS1 was something on its own) compared to Nintendo even when they (xbox in this case) already been cracked, is cause there is not enough "demand" for it for those working on those shady programs to spent time and resources compared to the always desired (and often tried to be justified) piracy of nintendo games/ hardware.
 

Wolfman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,496
A TLDR: Nintendo is filing DMCA take down claims on a (so far just this one) channel that has videos focusing on how to install switch homebrew. These videos don't contain any more footage than your average let's player or other nintendo news/review/etc youtuber, the only difference is that they host how to homebrew the console.

This is clearly an abuse of the DMCA, selectively using it to post copyright claims on channels they disapprove of. Obviously they legally can do so, but it is a huge overreach and sets a bad precedent.
Ugh... good guy Nintendo punching down again.

Because it's a door to piracy and cheaters. At the cost of emulation? Yes please. We can emulate stuff on 133 other hardwares.
Mods, I will pay whatever you ask to make Sammy's 'vacation' a permanent one :P

j/k?
 
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Seik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,391
Québec City
I've been fighting that fight for years without success so I'll just TL;DR my habitual speech.

Homebrew ain't piracy, stop mixing both.
 

regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,664
I feel hacking any gaming device *for the purpose to download Rom's they could easily buy* is detrimental to the industry and hobby. And I have to admit that I believe *most* people who watch those videos are out to do just that.
Agree with most of your post but to the bolded part all I can say is ...."not really".

If you are out to play pirated copies of BOTW or Mario Kart on your Switch, you really don't need to know shit about homebrew. There are dedicated dongles you can buy online that come with a step by step, foolproof manual.
Pretty sure lots of Switch pirates don't even know what homebrew is/means.

IMO it's pretty weird that homebrew videos are getting taken down, while loads of videos show up when I type "sx os" into Youtube.
 

Asuka3+1

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 6, 2019
491
I don't think people are confused about the fact that Nintendo wants those videos gone or why they want them gone. They've made it abundantly clear that they are against uses of Nintendo products they don't officially allow, even if used for legal means. The argument is against them having the right or option to. Given the fact that hacking your own devices is entirely legal and within a consumer's rights, it's not easy to justify information about it being censored. Worse yet, the flagged videos were covering scene news, not tutorials.
if we talk about the rights to police HB, they cant, its legal.
if we talk about the rights to take down a video... even tho is an stretch/ abuse...under copyrights laws they pretty much can request take down any video that contains footage of their games (shall not be done tho)
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,527
Halifax, NS
I mean sure, just unlocking the console dont magically let you run games (that were CFW and booters come in and what dedicated teams for piracy kick in) BUT, even before that, a console do need to be cracked and that legs work is mostly done by people wanting to implement HB.

also, regarding "thats not the point". well, it kinda is, the reason why you dont see the same level of piracy/ emulation on other devices (currently, PS1 was something on its own) compared to Nintendo even when they (xbox in this case) already been cracked, is cause there is not enough "demand" for it for those working on those shady programs to spent time and resources compared to the always desired (and often tried to be justified) piracy of nintendo games/ hardware.
Piracy on the PS2 was rampant, and mostly done without homebrew, although nowadays FreeMCBoot + HDLoader is the goto for people with PS2 HDDs.

Piracy on the PS3 was rampant, and due to the freeness of PSN at that point, was a nightmare online. People were coding breakout tools that ran on a TI-83 they were so desperate.

Piracy on the PSP was almost the entirely of it's western presence. I knew people who were buying PSPs by the tens just to flash them and load monster hunter. It was rampant.

Piracy on the Vita is rampant (especially now that it's a "dead" system)

Piracy on the original Xbox was pretty substantial.

Piracy on the 360 was rampant, and didn't even require custom firmware. You just straight up flashed the DVD drive to ignore the security check on boot.

Every system gets pirated, every single one. It's not just a matter of demand or popularity, so trying to argue this angle that nintendo pirates are in a league of their own is a weird angle to take. The PSP scene was massive in it's heyday, and the DS scene was mostly driven by flashcarts, no real homebrew involved.

The fact of the matter is, either Microsoft has finally built a system that isn't going to be cracked anytime soon, or the few people who hold the keys to unlocking the thing have elected not to release it to the public because, contrary to a few other posts in this thread, most people in the scene are not here to enable piracy.
 

Giever

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,216
Probably conspiracy level here, but I wonder if this is in preparation for the eventual/soon launch of those two new Switch units we've heard rumors and speculation about. I know that, if it's true, I intend to mod my old Switch once I get the 'deluxe' one. I'm just sort of waiting on it because I don't want to get banned and lose access to playing Smash and such online.
 

Yarbskoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,118
The negative attitudes toward homebrew are really weird. They mostly only seem to show up when it involves console games, too.

Anyway, Nintendo's abusing copyright protection systems to take down videos they don't like. It's not right, but it's also not new.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
I mean sure, just unlocking the console dont magically let you run games (that were CFW and booters come in and what dedicated teams for piracy kick in) BUT, even before that, a console do need to be cracked and that legs work is mostly done by people wanting to implement HB.

also, regarding "thats not the point". well, it kinda is, the reason why you dont see the same level of piracy/ emulation on other devices (currently, PS1 was something on its own) compared to Nintendo even when they (xbox in this case) already been cracked, is cause there is not enough "demand" for it for those working on those shady programs to spent time and resources compared to the always desired (and often tried to be justified) piracy of nintendo games/ hardware.
Oh god not this dumb conspiracy theory again
 

regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,664
well, it kinda is, the reason why you dont see the same level of piracy/ emulation on other devices (currently, PS1 was something on its own) compared to Nintendo even when they (xbox in this case) already been cracked, is cause there is not enough "demand" for it for those working on those shady programs to spent time and resources compared to the always desired (and often tried to be justified) piracy of nintendo games/ hardware.
I highly doubt evil hackers have it out for Nintendo.
The piracy of Switch games is (IMO) a function of various aspects:

- there are a ton of very good games exclusive to it (you are right on that one)
- games are still expensive, even 2 years after release
- playing pirated games on Switch is super easy, doesn't even require opening it up
- filesizes on Switch are tiny, trading ROMs is easy
- Nintendo games are rarely multiplayer centered, don't require patches
- getting banned doesn't scare anyone bc it's a handheld that's not used for Netflix

On PS4 or Xbox, the upside of running an "honest" system (updates, MP, Netflix) is just larger than it is on Switch.
 

Nappael

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,631
Can I just point out how fucking funny it is to me seeing people bring out the "Nobody hacks other consoles like they do Nintendo ones!" excuse in this thread of all places?

The dude was heavily involved in the OG Xbox hacking scene, and was responsible for:

- xSnes9x
- MAME .72
- Literally porting SDL, which tonnes of projects used
- Porting Doom, Quake and other games
-NeoGeoCD-SDL. Which at release only read from real CD's because he didn't want to promote NeoGeo Piracy
- One of the earliest N64 emulators on the system

And a bunch of other stuff.
 
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HardRojo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,635
He is getting what he deserves.
Well, of course Princess Zelda is going to defend Nintendo no matter what, her livelihood depends on them, unless you're not the real Princess Zelda, in which case what the hell are you doing!?

also, regarding "thats not the point". well, it kinda is, the reason why you dont see the same level of piracy/ emulation on other devices (currently, PS1 was something on its own) compared to Nintendo
And there it is, I swear it's only when it comes to Nintendo and emulators/homebrew that all the crazies come out the woodwork.
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,651
Nothing new from Nintendo, they'll always pull disgusting shit because a) no one has the means to fight them and b) their fanbase will eat it up.
Piracy is just Piracy
Piracy is a service issue this was both proven and combated by a person smarter than anyone who has even worked at Nintendo.

His own fault to post homebrew tutorials on youtube. Only idiots would call it censorship and Nintendo here is right not only in law but morally as well.
Big corps and their CEOs and people in leadership positions are inherently immoral and do not deserve our consideration or support.
 
Nov 4, 2017
2,034
Can I just point out how fucking funny it is to me seeing people bring out the "Nobody hacks other consoles like they do Nintendo ones!" excuse in this thread of all places?

The dude was heavily involved in the OG Xbox hacking scene, and was responsible for:

- xSnes9x
- MAME .72
- Literally porting SDL, which tonne of projects used
- Porting Doom, Quake and other games

And a bunch of other stuff.
Thank you for raising this. Thanks to his efforts, an OG Xbox is still worth owning purely as a convenient, inexpensive retro emulation machine if you have one around. He also seems to be 100% into it for the preservation (and I assume the challenge), not free games.

I'd wager almost everybody in this game shitting on MVG has never even watched one of his videos.
 

AfropunkNyc

Member
Nov 15, 2017
2,205
Any time i hear homebrew i think of piracy and the possibility of opening up to piracy. When there's a new console come out and i hear hackers manage to get homebrew on the hardware then i know what will come after. I think Nintendo see homebrew promotion as advertisement for other activities. To me people who try homebrew on their handheld may try other things.
 

oni-link

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,156
UK
exactly.
do i think homebrew equals piracy? no
do i think any company would be opposed to video tutorials teaching people how to hack their hardware in a way that also enables piracy? yes
Being opposed to them is fine, using a DMCA take down on someone who isn't breaking the law or infringing their copyright and is doing something they're entitled to do, just to silence them, is a dick move
 

Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,045
Nintendo can be so backwards and stupid sometimes

And I see the Homebrew = piracy garbage already invaded this thread in full force. Thankfully the mod team put a stop to that nonesense
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,175
Sydney
I would like to know what type of piracy is fine to stand up for
There are things that make sense.

Abandonware, like many, many old home PC (Commodore 64 and the like) games often in copyright limbo because their developer no longer exists, they got a single release in a smaller country, and may be stored on unstable media like magnetic tape, which would be completely lost sooner or later without some kind of copyright infringement, which nobody would pursue anyway since like mentioned there is nobody to pursue them. Even the hardest sticklers for the law would not blink an eye at ripping and safely storing copies of such things.

Of course, the headliners on every single roms site and emulator promotion are not these, because the demand from average piracy joe is for big names like Mario or Sonic or at least stuff from popular (and thus already fully preserved and catalogued) consoles like the NES, and Mario and co get the biggest google/youtube hits. Entitled people use the 'preservation' angle on things it doesn't apply to. Nobody would have shared Frank Cifaldi's talk as much if the hook was "Mythos Games downloaded Laser Squad off the internet and sold it to you!", instead he needed the (now essentially proven false) Mario line to gain traction.

Piracy is almost always a service issue, and if Nintendo didn't fucking restart their retro collection back to NES and slow drip them til the end of a console life-cycle every time they release new hardware, if they allowed modding support, if they allowed personal customization for the console's UI, and if they gave me a way to actually make back up saves without making me pay for a service that's below par and doesn't even apply to all games, I wouldn't need to homebrew.
Stretch Armstrong would be proud of that one. And hard lol at your UI/Save backups/modding etc comments used as backup for it, which have nothing to do with game piracy 'being a service issue' and are entirely separate justifications for homebrew.

Facts: Many, maybe even most, people take stuff for free irrespective of the law if they can get away with it. There was mass piracy even in the Virtual Console's prime. Ultimately enough people stealing can force content owners into providing or allowing access of their work via ultra cheap sources (typically streaming now), from which they receive much less then they do or did when mass piracy didn't destroy the perceived value of their work. The 'service' people end up willing to pay for is only so because it's either free or very cheap due to competing with actually free, easy mass piracy.

I set up my own store inside my house with items that I bought, then I showed people how to take them off the shelf and out of my house. Now this is all completely legal because I own all the items in the store. I trust that viewers will set up their own store to shoplift from and not shoplift from Walmart
Lol
 

Nappael

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,631
Being opposed to them is fine, using a DMCA take down on someone who isn't breaking the law or infringing their copyright and is doing something they're entitled to do, just to silence them, is a dick move
Not just a dick move. Actually illegal. Especially when they try to then falsify a reason like they did here by claiming he was showing Splatoon.

Fortunately for Nintendo, false DMCA claims like this are rarely punished.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Nothing new from Nintendo, they'll always pull disgusting shit because a) no one has the means to fight them and b) their fanbase will eat it up.

Piracy is a service issue this was both proven and combated by a person smarter than anyone who has even worked at Nintendo.


Big corps and their CEOs and people in leadership positions are inherently immoral and do not deserve our consideration or support.
Maybe in your mind, clearly not in mine if that wasn't clear before lol
 

NSESN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,241
There are things that make sense.

Abandonware, like many, many old home PC (Commodore 64 and the like) games often in copyright limbo because their developer no longer exists, they got a single release in a smaller country, and may be stored on unstable media like magnetic tape, which would be completely lost sooner or later without some kind of copyright infringement, which nobody would pursue anyway since like mentioned there is nobody to pursue them. Even the hardest sticklers for the law would not blink an eye at ripping and safely storing copies of such things.

Of course, the headliners on every single roms site and emulator promotion are not these, because the demand from average piracy joe is for big names like Mario or Sonic or at least stuff from popular (and thus already fully preserved and catalogued) consoles like the NES, and Mario and co get the biggest google/youtube hits. Entitled people use the 'preservation' angle on things it doesn't apply to. Nobody would have shared Frank Cifaldi's talk as much if the hook was "Mythos Games downloaded Laser Squad off the internet and sold it to you!", instead he needed the (now essentially proven false) Mario line to gain traction.

Stretch Armstrong would be proud of that one. And hard lol at your UI/Save backups/modding etc comments used as backup for it, which have nothing to do with game piracy 'being a service issue' and are entirely separate justifications for homebrew.

Facts: Many, maybe even most, people take stuff for free irrespective of the law if they can get away with it. There was mass piracy even in the Virtual Console's prime. Ultimately enough people stealing can force content owners into providing or allowing access from cheap ultra accessible sources (typically streaming now) of their stuff, from which they receive much less then they do or did when mass piracy didn't destroy the perceived value of their work. The 'service' people end up willing to pay for is only so because it's either free or very cheap due to competing with actually free, easy mass piracy.


Lol
Thanks for the explanation
 

Biggersmaller

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,988
Minneapolis
Not really. DMCA's are for the purpose of removing content that is actually in the act of violating copyright on Youtube in the form of media. I don't see how DIY videos would fall under that umbrella, unless now Nintendo are saying even filming an actual Switch console is copyright infringement, which would be ludicrous.
This is my take. Why people take a corporation’s side in this case confuses me.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,653
Stretch Armstrong would be proud of that one. And hard lol at your UI/Save backups/modding etc comments used as backup for it, which have nothing to do with game piracy 'being a service issue' and are entirely separate justifications for homebrew.

Facts: Many, maybe even most, people take stuff for free irrespective of the law if they can get away with it. There was mass piracy even in the Virtual Console's prime. Ultimately enough people stealing can force content owners into providing or allowing access from cheap ultra accessible sources (typically streaming now) of their stuff, from which they receive much less then they do or did when mass piracy didn't destroy the perceived value of their work. The 'service' people end up willing to pay for is only so because it's either free or very cheap due to competing with actually free, easy mass piracy.
You might want to read what I was responding to and look at the full context of what I wrote. I'm defending homebrew in general, not piracy. Their logic is that homebrew is not worth it because it leads to piracy, and I said there's valid reason for homebrew. If you wanna know where I stand on piracy, my only thought in that response was that it was a service issue and using their logic that homebrew leads to piracy then the best course of action is to combat it by adding better services so people don't feel the need to homebrew.

My other thought on piracy in this thread was also this:
I find the piracy of abandonware and almost lost media to be possibly moral. There are things that would be completely lost to history without someone saving a copy and distributing it. Like the Star Wars Holiday Special, which has never been officially redistributed and shown only once in the US.
 

Big_Erk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
670
KC
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oni-link

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,156
UK
Not just a dick move. Actually illegal. Especially when they try to then falsify a reason like they did here by claiming he was showing Splatoon.

Fortunately for Nintendo, false DMCA claims like this are rarely punished.
Yeah and this is why they're doing it, because they'll get away with it

No one is going to fight Nintendo over this, and if they did Nintendo could hire a team that would probably win or settle out of court if the situation got sticky enough

It's disappointing we have people excusing this kind of behaviour just because they like Nintendo
 

Yarbskoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,118

Big_Erk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
670
KC
Is it illegal to tell someone about xliveless?
I guess this section could apply here.

(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
I love how people get upset about this kind of stuff. A little research reveals this

17 U.S. Code 1201.
Circumvention of copyright protection systems


(a)Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological Measures.
(1)
(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.


So yeah, it's illegal.
False. he has done zero videos on how to go around copy protection, and the vast majority of the videos struck down are not tutorials at all.
Try again
 
Oct 27, 2017
140
I love how people get upset about this kind of stuff. A little research reveals this

17 U.S. Code 1201.
Circumvention of copyright protection systems


(a)Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological Measures.
(1)
(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.


So yeah, it's illegal.
Your little research could include the thread:
It's not though. I'd want to see a cite that says it is.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2018-10-26/pdf/2018-23241.pdf

Section III, A, 4

It is in the 2018 exemptions.
Either way law != ethics.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,175
Sydney
You might want to read what I was responding to and look at the full context of what I wrote. I'm defending homebrew in general, not piracy. Their logic is that homebrew is not worth it because it leads to piracy, and I said there's valid reason for homebrew. If you wanna know where I stand on piracy, my only thought in that response was that it was a service issue and using their logic that homebrew leads to piracy than the best course of action is to combat it by adding better services so people don't feel the need to homebrew.
Okay fair enough, but the argument is still all over the place.

Maybe mods and UI customisation is a good enough for some people to hack a console. But those things have nothing to do with people pursuing hacking their console to pirate games for free. It's an absolute edge case that someone would see they couldn't play Mario World on the Switch and found it 'difficult to be able to play' (aka the 'service issue') despite it being playable on SNES, GBA, DS, Wii and is currently still for sale on both Wii U and N3DS - and 'UI customisation' is what pushed them over the edge to homebrew so they could also play a their personally ripped cart copy on the Switch via a hobby coded homebrew emulator.

Piracy is a service issue this was both proven and combated by a person smarter than anyone who has even worked at Nintendo.
Oh wow, someone smarter than anyone who has even worked at Nintendo. What is this, kindergarten?
 

Big_Erk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
670
KC
False. he has done zero videos on how to go around copy protection, and the vast majority of the videos struck down are not tutorials at all.
Try again
I'm not trying anything. Just pointing out things that may be useful in the conversation being had. At the end of the day the only way to enable homebrew on a Switch is to circumvent the systems security. Security that is in place for a variety of reasons, one of which is copyright protection. That is illegal under the codes listed.
 

Pillock

User Requested Ban
Banned
Dec 29, 2017
1,341
Whilst homebrew is not piracy it's the type of thing that could lead to piracy. Something Nintendo cannot afford to happen to the switch.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,287
I'm not trying anything. Just pointing out things that may be useful in the conversation being had. At the end of the day the only way to enable homebrew on a Switch is to circumvent the systems security. Security that is in place for a variety of reasons, one of which is copyright protection. That is illegal under the codes listed.
Not a single of his videos goes over on how to circumvent game's copy protection.
 

Deleted member 21601

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
810
Nintendo specified what kind of footage is allowed on Youtube. This isnt part of it. And its their right to decide so.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,325
Not too surprising. Nintendo is almost at Apple levels when it comes to denying consumers their rights.