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Nintendo hits popular homebrew YouTuber, Modern Vintage Gamer, with numerous copyright claims forcing him to stop making Switch homebrew videos.

Nappael

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,631
The problem with "just lawyering up" is that a. the DMCA doesn't have any punishments built in to discourage frivolous takedowns and b. lawyers aren't fucking free
In the US, prior precedent is usually used when there is no "built in" rule.

One example of a false DMCA claim which went to court is Online Policy Group vs Diebold, Inc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Policy_Group_v._Diebold,_Inc.

Diebold made DMCA takedown requests after emails were published which revealed security weaknesses in their voting machines. It was decided that using DMCA takedowns as a form of censoring these emails was an abuse of the DMCA and they were fined $125,000

Nintendos website also covers this:



https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp <- also covers their view on roms, emulator and devices to make game backups

The Switch method is not a modchip but a way to circumvent the security systems put in place. So homebrew is not accepable to them. Even if its cool on the internet.
Nintendo do not decide the fucking law. How many times does it need to be said?

Because Nintendo think emulators are illegal doesn't suddenly make it illegal. That's not how any of this works.
 

Daysean

Member
Nov 15, 2017
2,723
Youtube is a cesspool to begin. with. And yes, I support Nintendo or any other company taking people such as this off of the Internet. Are you telling me that what he is doing is legal? If so, maybe he should just lawyer up?
"If so, maybe he should just lawyer up"
Giving away your trolling with this line, might wanna edit it out so you will get more replies
 

Replicant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,596
MN
Fuck off Nintendo.

MVG is one of the best channels on YouTube, his Switch/Xbox videos are stellar and the CannonBall port was mint.

This is so fucking dumb...
It’s not dumb though. MVG is a good channel, but Nintendo has every right to try and protect its IP when it comes to console hacking.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,588
In the US, prior precedent is usually used when there is no "built in" rule.

One example of a false DMCA claim which went to court is Online Policy Group vs Diebold, Inc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Policy_Group_v._Diebold,_Inc.

Diebold made DMCA takedown requests after emails were published which revealed security weaknesses in their voting machines. It was decided that using DMCA takedowns as a form of censoring these emails were an abuse of the DMCA and they were fined $125,000
"Built in" in the fact that they still need to be taken to court over a false takedown while the takedowns themselves are required by law to be automatic. This doesn't exactly discourage false claims.
 

SweetVermouth

Member
Mar 5, 2018
4,096
The Switch method is not a modchip but a way to circumvent the security systems put in place. So homebrew is not accepable to them.
It doesn't matter if it's "not acceptable" to them. As end consumer you have the right to do anything to your console, as long as it's not piracy. Nintendo can write whatever they want on their damn website means jack shit.

Things Nintendo can do is denying support for people with hacked Switch consoles because you voided warranty if you did.
 

ChristianH94

Member
Apr 14, 2019
326
You know as weird as it sounds, I actually think if he actually went into countering a DMCA Takedown Request and took it to court he actually would win assuming he's willing to pay the astronomical amount of legal fees and also outright scorn of Nintendo and possibly the fanbase in its entirety. There actually have been a number of fair use cases where Nintendo has outright lost in regards to software modification, and on paper this actually fits perfectly with fair use.
 

Deleted member 21601

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
810
It doesn't matter if it's "not acceptable" to them. As end consumer you have the right to do anything to your console, as long as it's not piracy. Nintendo can write whatever they want on their damn website means jack shit.

Things Nintendo can do is denying support for people with hacked Switch consoles because you voided warranty if you did.
The thing is the license wich google points to from Nintendo dosnt allow it. There actualy is no discussion to be had about this case.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,868
Youtube is a cesspool to begin. with. And yes, I support Nintendo or any other company taking people such as this off of the Internet. Are you telling me that what he is doing is legal? If so, maybe he should just lawyer up?
Oh, you’re just trolling. Sorry. I thought you were serious at first!
 

ccieag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,339
Vail, CO
I’m not trolling. I’m serious - I don’t support home brew or piracy which these mods always inevitably lead to. But then I have a friend who works in the industry and feels the same way.

And if the YouTube guy thinks he has a case he could sue Nintendo.
 

Nappael

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,631
The thing is the license wich google points to from Nintendo dosnt allow it. There actualy is no discussion to be had about this case.
And that license is valid only as a means for deciding who can access Nintendo services.

Its. Not. The. Fucking. Law. In much the same way that voiding a warranty isn't illegal, it just prevents you from getting repairs.

Nintendo TOS does not extend to what someone can do with their Switch, and post about online. That is covered strictly by the DMCA or equivalent laws in the users home country (or the origin of the website they are posting on, if they are talking about it online).

And even then, where I live TOS agreements and heavy handed unenforceable licenses have been shut down in court multiple times.
 

ChristianH94

Member
Apr 14, 2019
326
The thing is the license wich google points to from Nintendo dosnt allow it. There actualy is no discussion to be had about this case.
Oh there is because that license isn't even a real license as much as it's more of a set of guidelines for not stepping on Nintendo's toes. I'm working on a youtube channel and I'm gonna be following those rules, but legally speaking I don't have to, all it means is if I don't there's a possibility of nonsense like this happening. It's not illegal to piss off Nintendo or any major corporation, and you can also sue someone for anything (even me just typing this post if they really wanted to) but actually winning the case and having something be truly against the law is another story. Nintendo and tech companies do this all the time, it's nothing personal to anyone in the homebrew community: they're just big giant companies and they like control.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,588
Thats the point of the license.
The point of the license is to establish a series of guidelines for which Nintendo ignores their right to take down infringing content. Videos that are protected by fair use aren't infringing and thus have no relation to Nintendo's license. Nintendo can't legally take down these videos any more than they can legally take down a bad video review.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,325
I’m not trolling. I’m serious - I don’t support home brew or piracy which these mods always inevitably lead to. But then I have a friend who works in the industry and feels the same way.

And if the YouTube guy thinks he has a case he could sue Nintendo.
Obviously if he could sue Nintendo then they would've never made this claim in the first place. It's a classic intimation tactic. No different than Apple taking down Hackintosh guides
 

Deleted member 21601

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
810
User Warned - Arguing in Bad Faith
And that license is valid only as a means for deciding who can access Nintendo services.

Its. Not. The. Fucking. Law. In much the same way that voiding a warranty isn't illegal, it just prevents you from getting repairs.

Nintendo TOS does not extend to what someone can do with their Switch, and post about online. That is covered strictly by the DMCA or equivalent laws in the users home country.

And even then, where I live TOS agreements and heavy handed unenforcable licenses have been shut down in court multiple times.
Its in the Terms of Service from Google that Videogame Publishers can decide whats allowed and whats not.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,175
Sydney
Not really. It just takes a few clicks to pirate a game on PC, with no modification to your hard- or software. Yet, it's a very profitable platform and has been receiving tremendous support from developers in these past few years. Attempts at DRM like Denuvo fail miserably, but games remain successful.
You're just throwing ideas at a wall here with no consistency.

So, the Denuvo security fails... and therefore that is proof that it's working? Or not needed?

And just because it's a profitable platform doesn't mean piracy isn't a security issue. PC Piracy rates remains in the 90% range according to many reports. Most likely the userbase has grown exponentially as a whole, which means even the small fraction who do not pirate has itself grown. That fraction may be healthy enough to justify greenlighting games, sure, but so what? What does that have to do with my claim that piracy is a security issue? Zero.

Piracy rates were much lower on SNES and N64 than on any modern platform. Why? Because of better security. The format made piracy too expensive and thus risky to be worth it for most commercial pirates, and too costly (requiring expensive extra hardware and hoops to jump through) for consumer pirates. In that era and all through the 90s the fully cracked Famicom dominated the piracy scene (on pirated consoles too, no-less) because it was easier. And to this date, Piracy rates are essentially non-existent on uncracked (or extremely hard to crack) consoles, then skyrocket when they get cracked. DS sold almost a billion games, but tapered off hard once piracy became mainstream.

Strong security = lower piracy. Less security = higher piracy. It's so obvious but everyone wants to tread around it with mealy-mouthed buzzwords and excuses. Switch/PS4 didn't need 'better services' to 'combat' piracy when they were still uncracked. There was no piracy.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,868
I’m not trolling. I’m serious - I don’t support home brew or piracy which these mods always inevitably lead to. But then I have a friend who works in the industry and feels the same way.

And if the YouTube guy thinks he has a case he could sue Nintendo.
Christ, I honestly thought you were. You’re beyond drinking the cool aid. You’re practically swimming in it!

He’s not doing anything illegal, and I can guarantee you that your friend in the industry has a lot of co-workers who learned parts of their trade by doing similar things. Depending on where he/she works it’s not unlikely the people who started that very company used the skills learned by mucking around with technology to get their business going.

And you know as well as anyone here that a single individual does not have a snowballs chance in hell going up in court against a multimillion dollar company. If he had the money to pay for the proceedings I’m almost certain he would win, though.
 

Ninjadom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,049
London, UK
There is no service that can completely eliminate piracy, some people will pirate no matter what, so your question can't really be answered

People still pirate MP3s, but most just use a streaming service, people still pirate TV shows, but most just use a streaming service

Are music and TV piracy as bad now as they were in before Spotify and Netflix? I would assume not

There is no golden bullet that will kill video game piracy, but right now it's a piece of piss to pirate an old Nintendo game and it's literally impossible to buy most old Nintendo games, so there is probably a service they could offer than would reduce piracy, even if only a little
And there will be no service that can help those in third world countries around the world where piracy is "normal".
 

saci

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,592
You're just throwing ideas at a wall here with no consistency.

So, the Denuvo security fails... and therefore that is proof that it's working? Or not needed?

And just because it's a profitable platform doesn't mean piracy isn't a security issue. PC Piracy rates remains in the 90% range according to many reports. Most likely the userbase has grown exponentially as a whole, which means even the small fraction who do not pirate has itself grown. That fraction may be healthy enough to justify greenlighting games, sure, but so what? What does that have to do with my claim that piracy is a security issue? Zero.

Piracy rates were much lower on SNES and N64 than on any modern platform. Why? Because of better security. The format made piracy too expensive and thus risky to be worth it for most commercial pirates, and too costly (requiring expensive extra hardware and hoops to jump through) for consumer pirates. In that era and all through the 90s the fully cracked Famicom dominated the piracy scene because it was easier. And to this date, Piracy rates are essentially non-existent on uncracked (or extremely hard to crack) consoles, then skyrocket when they get cracked. DS sold almost a billion games, but tapered off hard once piracy became mainstream.

Strong security = lower piracy. Less security = higher piracy. It's so obvious but everyone wants to tread around it with mealy-mouthed buzzwords and excuses.
And you keep throwing "piracy rates" like that mean something important. Stop acting like companies that say stupid shit like "1 illegal download = 1 less sale".
Denuvo could come tomorrow with an unbreakable DRM and every single game company on PC could start using it and I can GUARANTEE you that sales wouldn't increase at all.
Also, "90% piracy rate", Jesus Christ.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,175
Sydney
And you keep throwing "piracy rates" like that mean something important. Stop acting like companies that say stupid shit like "1 illegal download = 1 less sale".
Denuvo could come tomorrow with an unbreakable DRM and every single game company on PC could start using it and I can GUARANTEE you that sales wouldn't increase at all.
Also, "90% piracy rate", Jesus Christ.
Please explain how anything you just said combats my point that piracy is a security issue?
Or did you just not address that point at all and went on a rant about piracy's interaction with actual sales figures? Oh...
 
Oct 27, 2017
140
You're just throwing ideas at a wall here with no consistency.

So, the Denuvo security fails... and therefore that is proof that it's working? Or not needed?

And just because it's a profitable platform doesn't mean piracy isn't a security issue. PC Piracy rates remains in the 90% range according to many reports. Most likely the userbase has grown exponentially as a whole, which means even the small fraction who do not pirate has itself grown. That fraction may be healthy enough to justify greenlighting games, sure, but so what? What does that have to do with my claim that piracy is a security issue? Zero.

Piracy rates were much lower on SNES and N64 than on any modern platform. Why? Because of better security. The format made piracy too expensive and thus risky to be worth it for most commercial pirates, and too costly (requiring expensive extra hardware and hoops to jump through) for consumer pirates. In that era and all through the 90s the fully cracked Famicom dominated the piracy scene because it was easier. And to this date, Piracy rates are essentially non-existent on uncracked (or extremely hard to crack) consoles, then skyrocket when they get cracked. DS sold almost a billion games, but tapered off hard once piracy became mainstream.

Strong security = lower piracy. Less security = higher piracy. It's so obvious but everyone wants to tread around it with mealy-mouthed buzzwords and excuses. Switch/PS4 didn't need 'better services' to 'combat' piracy when they were still uncracked. There was no piracy.
They weren't really random ideas. I was pointing out the PC is incredibly insecure and attempts to make it secure failed consistently. But publishers keep making money on it, which is great.

Don't care to address the rest of your post since it's mostly asspulling. PC being profitable is proven, lack of security obvious to anyone who ever used a PC. Enjoy your fantasies, buddy.
 

NarohDethan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,856
Please explain how anything you just said combats my point that piracy is a security issue?
Or did you just not address that point at all and went on a rant about piracy's interaction with actual sales figures? Oh...
Russia, one of the worst 'offenders' in worldwide piracy, now accounts for a big chunk of Steam revenue. We know this directly from Valve.

In fact, 2018 Russia revenue alone accounts for the worldwide 2010 revenue.
 

UnNamed

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
616
Nintendo rules?
The only rules MVG has to follow are YouTube terms of service and monetization and the laws about fair use and piracy in his country. Stop.
Every other rules are meaningless if there isn't a contract from both side.
 

Deleted member 21601

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
810
Nintendo rules?
The only rules MVG has to follow are YouTube terms of service and monetization and the laws about fair use and piracy in his country. Stop.
Every other rules are meaningless if there isn't a contract from both side.
Its still in the YouTube terms of service that videogame publishers decide the rules for their content.
 

Quote

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,580
i’m sure nintendo pays a pretty penny for the space, but they shouldn’t be allowed at makerfaire with practices such as this.
 

cucholix

Member
Oct 30, 2017
882
Nintendo rules?
The only rules MVG has to follow are YouTube terms of service and monetization and the laws about fair use and piracy in his country. Stop.
Every other rules are meaningless if there isn't a contract from both side.
But Nintendo will enforce whatever rule they wish, in this case the contract is meaningless :p
 

Nappael

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,631
That 90% figure is utter fud. Even Ubisoft now admit their old "93%+" piracy figures are completely wrong now.

Figures I've seen, put the current figure in the 15-35% range, and that's a high end estimate.
 

Gnorman

Member
Jan 14, 2018
1,786
Fuck Nintendo. He should distribute his videos by any means possible and encourage people to upload them to YouTube.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,584
This doesn't fall under DMCA, this takedown is an abuse of power of the system. This feels like Nintendo vs. Cheating Devices all over again. In the end, the courts ruled that people have a right to *modify* and repair their system. I don't blame Nintendo for wanting to prevent people from spreading the word about hacking their devices, but this isn't the way to go about it.
 

Swift_Gamer

Member
Dec 14, 2018
1,411
Rio de Janeiro
VC being a thing didn't stop the Wii from being one of the most hacked systems out there
No. The Wii got cracked open and hacked six ways from Sunday when it had far and away the best version of VC. The ideal VC. Every version of VC was shittier because 3rd parties just started making their own collections instead of having them on VC.
What matters is the popularity of the hardware and how easy it is to get into it and create robust homebrew software.
I meant people wouldn't be so eager to do it if VC was available.