Nintendo interrupts Smash Online Invitational Qualifiers commentary to defend its netcode

minimaxir

Built an AI that makes better threads than you
Member
May 9, 2018
782
Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously..
An old SMS message caps out at 140 bytes yes. A text message on any modern platform (e.g. iMessage) is "Several Thousand Kilobytes" due to encryption + metadata.

The reason that's now sustainable is due to advances in network speed + capacity.
 
Oct 25, 2017
607
Namco: what is GGPO?

Capcom: what is netcode?

Nintendo: what is online even? Has anyone heard of it?

Japan still living in 1995.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,620
North Jackson High
I mean, Nintendo needs to get better at this but I'm playing on Wifi and have rarely had issues. Mostly if it's a 4 player match and someone drops after being eliminated, then it can really stutter, but generally quite smooth otherwise.
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,697
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
 
Nov 3, 2017
872
This post will live in infamy!

Mods; please give this man the tag of "SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES" That links to this post!
oh sure, let's harass someone for no reason at all because of a silly statement

That's pretty petty TBH, even though that comment is really silly and not at all right it doesn't seem like a reason to poke fun of the user forever for. Please tell me this community is better than that
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,399
Tampa
Online-games aren't all the same. You can't compare the effort in how to build a good online-performance between online-shooters, -fighters and -platformers. Shooters use a lot of tricks, so that the online-experience work flawless. Also some gameplay allows for a better game-flow in an online-space.

If you look at Smash, it is an unique platform-fighter (so there aren't many references or people with experiences) and the gameplay isn't build for an online-environment. Nintendo may also have not the best online-structure, but there other online-games work and Bandai-Namco has a lot of experiences.
Look no further then PlayStation All-Stars, where people were also very angry about the online-lag in the game.

Of course, as a customer, you shouldn't care for "but it's hard ...", but people in this thread acting like it is an easy task, undersell the effort.
Developers were doing it fine 10 years ago. They're still doing it fine today. Please stop defending this kind of incompetence.

Funny you mention Sony Smash because the online (which was free online btw) was miles better than any Smash game, with a shoestring budget and green developers.

Or maybe I just responded to a parody post, I dunno.
 
Oct 25, 2017
830
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
nice
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,361
It's really weird to watch, and gets even longer (just click "full video for more context" and seeing the game lag again after that):

"the players aren't seeing this lag" is a weird defense when it's online.

edit: note that those are the qualifiers. The finals will be at PAX, not online.
edit 2:


edit 3:
The VOD will presumably be based on replays and replays don’t show lag. As in, a smooth replay does not mean a smooth match.

They’re just being dishonest.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,656
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
I refuse to believe this is real.
 
Sep 2, 2018
1,016
Is the lag really that bad overseas? I play in Japan and have brief, mild lag in maybe 25% of matches. A couple of times I've had unplayably bad lag. The rest of the time it's smooth and there are no issues. I'm on wi-fi and only ever play against people in Japan (as far as I can tell).
Maybe like 5% my matches are laggy in Canada playing with an overpriced 50mbps internet connection
 

ara

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,096
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
This is a fucking good post man, I'm glad I opened this thread
 
Feb 6, 2019
131
Noticing when an explanation that interrupts a presentation doesn't seem to make sense, and implies a problem people run into pretty regularly isn't a problem, isn't a shit storm.

And there are differences in how games deal with online play. People who play fighting games can be particularly tuned into how it's handled because it's a demanding genre, and yeah, sometimes the "netcode" itself is bad.

Acting like there's no difference in how well online modes work in different games because "slowdown can happen" is so simplistic it misses the mark.
You are reading too much into it, it's not a official statement, it's probably just an ad-lib from the host to make the show run smoothly after the stream was cut.
He probably was told there was a problem in the stream, not in the game itself.
Of course I can't be sure, but the probability is higher than him "defending its netcode lol".

Never tried to say it's not an issue, just that you guys are blowing it out of proportions.
And you indeed are, just reading at the reactions in this thread and in every Nintendo Online thread, where people regularly shit on it
for whatever reason. The issue happened only once.
There is no way of knowing it the "netcode" is bad as people proclaim, since most of the time slowdowns happens because of people slow connections. If you regularly have lag and slowdowns, sorry to say, it's probably you.
 
Oct 25, 2017
698
Leeds, UK
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
ResetEra finally has its Japanese Culture post.
 
Jun 19, 2018
1,632
What if you regularly have slowdowns, but other games, including other platform fighters/Smash clones or even emulated Smash games works fine using the same connection?! What's the issue then?!

This "can't know if it's the netcode" is the stupidest line of corporate apologizing I've seen in a while, it's so ridiculous, it was probably started as a troll and got picked up by those who didn't know any better!
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,851
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
"also known as RAM" makes me think this must be a troll post
 
Oct 27, 2017
90
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
Good work.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,464
Doing Official Open Online Tournaments in fighting games is the dumbest idea ever, at least 11 out of 10 times publishers end up doing bad publicity for their games, either because their netcode is terrible, players don't have the culture of online gaming in FG, cheaters find ways to increase lag in the games or a combination of all of them. Nintendo doesn't really needed to create this tournament since the bad publicity wouldn't be worthy.

In that regard, Nintendo should push for the competitive scene of Smash, but I have heard from some friends who are into the Pokemon scene that either Nintendo or The Pokemon Company are not that much into supporting competitive gaming since they don't want to make their games too "hardcore" with the fear that they will scare the casuals away. I have a hard time believing this, but from Nintendo at this point I expect anything
 
Oct 25, 2017
326
You are reading too much into it, it's not a official statement, it's probably just an ad-lib from the host to make the show run smoothly after the stream was cut.
He probably was told there was a problem in the stream, not in the game itself.
Of course I can't be sure, but the probability is higher than him "defending its netcode lol".

Never tried to say it's not an issue, just that you guys are blowing it out of proportions.
And you indeed are, just reading at the reactions in this thread and in every Nintendo Online thread, where people regularly shit on it
for whatever reason. The issue happened only once.
There is no way of knowing it the "netcode" is bad as people proclaim, since most of the time slowdowns happens because of people slow connections. If you regularly have lag and slowdowns, sorry to say, it's probably you.
Yes you can know if netcode is bad. Just boot another game and compare how it deals with connection issues with how Smash does it.
 
Dec 11, 2018
31
Nintendo Online being the crappies thing ever is not news. Either the fans defending that shit tbh.

I'm actually surprised Nintendo doesn't ask for more money.
 
Feb 6, 2019
131
Yes you can know if netcode is bad. Just boot another game and compare how it deals with connection issues with how Smash does it.
Enlighten me, what make it so bad then?

Because my Smash deals with lag slowing down the game for both players, eliminating eventual unfair advantages and seamlessly (except for a bit of reconnection attempt) switch to similarly leveled CPU if the other party disconnects.
Those seem like solid design choices, especially after the complaints about desyncing the two players with AI when network issues arise, leading to times when both players could win the match without the other knowing. (I believe it was Street Fighter but I'm not sure about it)
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,152
I know people are having legit issues, but honestly I play like 30 matches online a night and almost never get a laggy one (1v1s). Maybe 1ish a night on average?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,680
Listen, you don’t have to like it but you at least have to admit this: Nintendo did not throw grenades filled with poisonous gas at the audience. Give credit where credit is due.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,096
Enlighten me, what make it so bad then?

Because my Smash deals with lag slowing down the game for both players, eliminating eventual unfair advantages and seamlessly (except for a bit of reconnection attempt) switch to similarly leveled CPU if the other party disconnects.
Those seem like solid design choices, especially after the complaints about desyncing the two players with AI when network issues arise, leading to times when both players could win the match without the other knowing. (I believe it was Street Fighter but I'm not sure about it)
What are these eventual unfair advantages? Which fighting games deal with lag in such a way that only one player is lagging?
 
Feb 6, 2019
131
What are these eventual unfair advantages? Which fighting games deal with lag in such a way that only one player is lagging?
I don't know? But other online games just let the lagging players lag, and the non lagging players watch them drifting away against walls or something.
Smite and most MMOs I played were like that.

Now, do you know what's so bad about Smash netcode?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,270
Texas
Nintendo gives us the honor of their online we should be grateful it allows us to add people.
At least they give you the glorious option of downloading a smartphone app to talk to your unworthy friends.
Now, do you know what's so bad about Smash netcode?
I know that there is something wrong with the online because it's bad enough that my brother no longer even attempts to use it. The only game he could or wants to play online for the Switch and he can't be arsed.

No one needs to know the exact issue in their awful code. No one even needs to know if the issue is not the code itself but that Nintendo created a console that needs a goddamn adapter to have a stable connection, leaving the vast majority of potential opponents as ticking time bombs waiting to blow up any fun you might have online.

All we know is the end product feels like shit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,096
I don't know? But other online games just let the lagging players lag, and the non lagging players watch them drifting away against walls or something.
Smite and most MMOs I played were like that.

Now, do you know what's so bad about Smash netcode?
Why are you bringing up server based MOBA and MMO? How is that relevant to how a p2p fighting game handles lag?
 
Feb 6, 2019
131
I'm pretty sure the videos in the OP speak for themselves.
I'm pretty sure they don't, but thanks for your priceless contribution in helping me understand the issue and not being a troll at all.

Why are you bringing up server based MOBA and MMO? How is that relevant to how a p2p fighting game handles lag?
Because as I said, I don't know about other fighting games.
If you do, why don't you say something instead of avoiding my question by asking leading questions back?
 
Jun 19, 2018
1,632
Because as I said, I don't know about other fighting games.
If you do, why don't you say something instead of avoiding my question by asking leading questions back?
Those games are server based, your connection is to the server not other players while playing online, if another player lag, it does not affect you long as your connection is fine with the server.

Fighting games has to be P2P, your connection is directly to the other player, when one connection is bad, it's gonna be awful on both ends, unless the issue is from a netcode bug(one player rollbacks, or desynce issues).
 
Oct 27, 2017
998
Developers were doing it fine 10 years ago. They're still doing it fine today. Please stop defending this kind of incompetence.
10 years ago? Which Developers? What are you talking about?
The worst people try to just call people incompetence. It's the "lazy developers" retorick. Nobody wants to create a bad product or have people encounter a bad experience. So either there is a problem with time, budget, planing, unseen consequences or it is a hard challenge, where they found the best solution in there limitations.
 
Feb 6, 2019
131
Those games are server based, your connection is to the server not other players while playing online, if another player lag, it does not affect you long as your connection is fine with the server.

Fighting games has to be P2P, your connection is directly to the other player, when one connection is bad, it's gonna be awful on both ends, unless the issue is from a netcode bug(one player rollbacks, or desynce issues).
I know that, what I still don't understand, and everyone refuses to explain, is why Smash netcode is supposedly so godawful compared to other fighting games.
As I said I don't have any other metrics except what I read about (what I believe was) Street Fighter, that allows the two players to be desynced filling the gaps with AI (and that was critiqued quite a bit too, since it allowed both players to win/lose the same fight without the other realizing).
No one bohered saying wich games do it right and why, and how Smash is different from it, in a coherent way.
All I got were joke answers and leading questions.

Honestly, I'm more and more convinced this is just another "Nintendo is DOOMED" level meme.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,096
I know that, what I still don't understand, and everyone refuses to explain, is why Smash netcode is supposedly so godawful compared to other fighting games.
As I said I don't have any other metrics except what I read about (what I believe was) Street Fighter, that allows the two players to be desynced filling the gaps with AI (and that was critiqued quite a bit too, since it allowed both players to win/lose the same fight without the other realizing).
No one bohered saying wich games do it right and why, and how Smash is different from it, in a coherent way.
All I got were joke answers and leading questions.

Honestly, I'm more and more convinced this is just another "Nintendo is DOOMED" level meme.
look up rollback vs delay based netcode. Street Fighter is comparably bad compared to GGPO games too but Smash handles it so much worse because the game doesn't even have a filter for connection quality so you're matched with people playing from shitty Wi-Fi from who knows where whether you like it or not.
Basically rollback at low latency feels like local, while input delay will always feel off and only gets a lot worse from there.