Nintendo interrupts Smash Online Invitational Qualifiers commentary to defend its netcode

Jan 8, 2019
38
Yeah it's more an indication of Japanese infrastructure than Nintendo doing anything right. I wouldn't be surprised if they did most of their testing in Japan and decided the performance there was accessible and didn't concern themselves too much with worldwide performance. The devs might even be surprised to find out that the game actually has issues worldwide.
I'm sure there's some truth to this, if it's not just completely the case. It's not like the developers were trying to put out a bad online experience. I think they definitely should've taken worldwide performance more into account though.

As an Australian, which is a country with rubbish internet, I find online really smooth as well. I've heard so many people trash on the Smash netcode and I'm starting to wonder if it's an America focussed issue
I know pro player Leffen also said he has issues with the online, but yeah, I think America would have it especially bad with how large it is.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,947
It's amazing to watch the handful of crazies try to defend this game, and Nintendo's continued incompetence in the realm of online gaming(and competitive gaming for that matter). They've been operating online gaming services for over a decade at this point, Smash's performance in this regard is simply embarrassing.
 
Oct 11, 2018
1,052
It's amazing to watch the handful of crazies try to defend this game, and Nintendo's continued incompetence in the realm of online gaming(and competitive gaming for that matter). They've been operating online gaming services for over a decade at this point, Smash's performance in this regard is simply embarrassing.
Yeah as far as online gaming goes it’s pretty shit. It’s equally as funny to watch people go on and on in rants about how shitty it is too though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,094
As an Australian, which is a country with rubbish internet, I find online really smooth as well. I've heard so many people trash on the Smash netcode and I'm starting to wonder if it's an America focussed issue
We're playing in NZ and its considered absolute trash by most people ive talked to
 
Dec 6, 2018
982
Me personally smash has been a better online experience than any other fighting game. Had more lag with street figher, mortal kombat and tekken so far. It's at least in line with other fighting games, but I think many smash players are isolated with the smash experience. Just reacting to the narrative but for a tournament it's unexcusable, and also kind of dumb to have it done online
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,847
Yeah it's more an indication of Japanese infrastructure than Nintendo doing anything right. I wouldn't be surprised if they did most of their testing in Japan and decided the performance there was accessible and didn't concern themselves too much with worldwide performance. The devs might even be surprised to find out that the game actually has issues worldwide.
This is true. I live in Taiwan and can connect to players from Japan and other nearby countries with very little noticeable lag, even via WiFi. But we have decently priced, very fast internet over in this part of the world. It's when I try to play with someone further than that that I run into problems. They really gotta start testing these things more in the EU and the States.
 
Oct 27, 2017
88
Argentina
Its not

literally nowhere has people tripping over themselves saying smash online works like a dream
Buzzard Can you present evidence contrary to the article's statements? It seems that a large number of people have issues. I played Smash Ultimate on solid internet that doesn't have lag in other games、 and that is a common complaint.

I gave it a number of tries while using the free demo of the online. The experience was bad enough that I finished getting the online challenges and didn't pay for the online. And I refuse to pay for the online until it improves.


"the service has gotten to a really good start"; "the service is off to a great start"; "helped in large part by Super Smash Bros. Ultimate"; "the recen release of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate built on the first surge in membership".

Anything but "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's online modes are turning players away" like the Polygon article indicates (lol, remember MK8 pie chart? what a joke)

As I said, vocal minority being very loud as always.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,260


"the service has gotten to a really good start"; "the service is off to a great start"; "helped in large part by Super Smash Bros. Ultimate"; "the recen release of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate built on the first surge in membership".

Anything but "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's online modes are turning players away" like the Polygon article indicates (lol, remember MK8 pie chart? what a joke)

As I said, vocal minority being very loud as always.
Are you serious with this?

1) This has nothing to do with the quality of the service, just sales of the service
2) You really think Nintendo is a viable source on if their product is shit?
3) Just because someone buys something that is behind a paywall, doesnt mean said thing is of good quality
4) The polygon article references a lot of issues, even citing a pro player talking about having trouble with the service and is a credible news source
5) You still have no evidence of anyone overwhelmingly praising the service, but I can guarantee you I can find tons of negative opinions on it from various platforms. The "vocal minority" critique is ridiculous

edit, here is some more aritcles

 
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Oct 26, 2017
7,532
Japan has some of the best internal internet connectivity in the world. FTTH everywhere, robust LTE/4G network. I'd not be surprised if the ping between Kumamoto and Wakanai isn't under 20ms. Not to mention there are tonnes of players, so no reason for matchmaking to take you beyond Japan.

This is not an accident. Nintendo really don't think very much beyond their own borders (in line with many Japanese as it were)
But it seems other Japanese companies manage to come up with better netcode?
 
Oct 25, 2017
985
Are you serious with this?

1) This has nothing to do with the quality of the service, just sales of the service
2) You really think Nintendo is a viable source on if their product is shit?
3) Just because someone buys something that is behind a paywall, doesnt mean said thing is of good quality
4) The polygon article references a lot of issues, even citing a pro player talking about having trouble with the service and is a credible news source
5) You still have no evidence of anyone overwhelmingly praising the service, but I can guarantee you I can find tons of negative opinions on it from various platforms. The "vocal minority" critique is ridiculous
Well Nintendo is a viable source on if they think their product is successful or not and they seem to think so. At least so far. Knowing the number of users is at least a quantifiable metric that we can use as data and hopefully they update the number so that we know if it's growing and how fast. And yeah, sourcing the company who made a product to be honest on the quality of the service should be met with skepticism, but I would also advise skepticism on sourcing internet comments as the opinion of the majority either. Opinions on the internet tend to be hyperbolized and amplified to ludicrous degrees and could very well be the opinion of the minority.

And also keep in mind that there doesn't have to be positive feelings for the service being the majority for the negativity to be in the minority. It's not necessarily a binary issue. There could be a lot of people who think the service is just "OK" or "servicable", something that works well enough that they're content with using it and don't particularly mind the issues others are having with it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,260
Well Nintendo is a viable source on if they think their product is successful or not and they seem to think so. At least so far. Knowing the number of users is at least a quantifiable metric that we can use as data and hopefully they update the number so that we know if it's growing and how fast. And yeah, sourcing the company who made a product to be honest on the quality of the service should be met with skepticism, but I would also advise skepticism on sourcing internet comments as the opinion of the majority either. Opinions on the internet tend to be hyperbolized and amplified to ludicrous degrees and could very well be the opinion of the minority.

And also keep in mind that there doesn't have to be positive feelings for the service being the majority for the negativity to be in the minority. It's not necessarily a binary issue. There could be a lot of people who think the service is just "OK" or "servicable", something that works well enough that they're content with using it and don't particularly mind the issues others are having with it.
Just updated my post with more articles

the point is that people having issues with the service isnt some vocal minority. Unless you have some other information to share that says how a lot of people are not having issue with it and all these sources are somehow a small handful of people, then your point is moot. At what point is this indicative of a much larger issue?

Sourcing Nintendo's sales for online as proof the service is great is like citing cod sales on why it should be goty
 
Jun 11, 2018
57
Tokyo
Is the lag really that bad overseas? I play in Japan and have brief, mild lag in maybe 25% of matches. A couple of times I've had unplayably bad lag. The rest of the time it's smooth and there are no issues. I'm on wi-fi and only ever play against people in Japan (as far as I can tell).
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,443
Works fine for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Having a lot of fun online too.
There are some laggy matches here and there, but nothing overdramatic. Other fighting games are much worse when it comes to the online part.
Smash has ultrafast matchmaking and a very solid netcode imo. I can't complain and i'm playing wireless!
 
Oct 28, 2017
769
But it seems other Japanese companies manage to come up with better netcode?
In fairness, Smash is likely the one of the worse case scenario for running a game online. Nintendo may have to take things to another level due to the game.
 
Oct 27, 2017
88
Argentina
Just updated my post with more articles

the point is that people having issues with the service isnt some vocal minority. Unless you have some other information to share that says how a lot of people are not having issue with it and all these sources are somehow a small handful of people, then your point is moot. At what point is this indicative of a much larger issue?

Sourcing Nintendo's sales for online as proof the service is great is like citing cod sales on why it should be goty
You quoted an article that begins with with "Smash Bros. is driving people away from the online", I provided proof that that is not the case, in fact its quite the contrary. And nowhere in that article there is even proof whatsoever that the majority of users are having trouble (in any of the other articles as well).

The premise from that article is flawed from the start, and Polygon has a very bad track record about it. Again I cite the infamous Mario Kart 8 pie chart case.

Also, citing articles about the online on launch isn't telling of much at all, the game already has had some changes made to how it works online, so many of the things mentioned there are already obsolete.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
3,680
Paris, France
I don't have strong lag issues, but often match freeze for a very brief time. And sometimes these freeze times aren't short at all and can last from one to several seconds.

Flawless matches are the exception for me, not the rule, and I play with a LAN adapter.
 
Just the other day I experienced a lag-free online match. Therefore, anyone claiming to have ever experienced any lag at all is Smash is making shit up because they hate Nintendo. Sorry to be dropping logic bombs in here but someone had to.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,322
UK
I feel like it would work, i'd definitely take the attempt over the current net code right now.
Why do people throw around the fact that the "net code" is bad when they haven't seen the code and if they did see it, wouldn't have the faintest clue how bad it is or otherwise. It could be general code within the app that causes lag, not just net code. People throw around this term like they know network coding inside out.
 
Oct 27, 2017
941
I've been playing online lately and it's not quite as bad as I was expecting. It varies a lot, sometimes it's great and sometimes it's messy. But most of the time it's reasonably playable.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,325
Ultimate's online was so bad for me that the free trial convinced me to never subscribe to Nintendo's online service.

Moves like this make me think they have concerning metrics that they have to cut and lie about it..
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,662
America
Is the lag really that bad overseas? I play in Japan and have brief, mild lag in maybe 25% of matches. A couple of times I've had unplayably bad lag. The rest of the time it's smooth and there are no issues. I'm on wi-fi and only ever play against people in Japan (as far as I can tell).
FYI: Japanese internet is one of the best in the world. Also, the country is medium-sized so the short distances help even more.

The fact that japanese devs only (or mainly) testing online in Japan has been a problem for a long, long time. I remember people were pissed that SF4 wasn't using a GGPO-like tech. (rollback netcode).

SFV does use rollback, at long last.
 

Mcjmetroid

Banned
Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,844
Limerick, Ireland
Why do people throw around the fact that the "net code" is bad when they haven't seen the code and if they did see it, wouldn't have the faintest clue how bad it is or otherwise. It could be general code within the app that causes lag, not just net code. People throw around this term like they know network coding inside out.
It's still shit no matter what it is and it's not up to us the players to work out exactly why it's bad.

Who cares.. it's bad
 
Jan 16, 2019
385
Why do people throw around the fact that the "net code" is bad when they haven't seen the code and if they did see it, wouldn't have the faintest clue how bad it is or otherwise. It could be general code within the app that causes lag, not just net code. People throw around this term like they know network coding inside out.
The proof is in the pudding. Gamers know rampant lag when they see it. It's a bit hard to miss, or mistake.

Another thing that is hard to mistake is Nintendo rusted ons making lazy excuses for Nintendo's at best incompetence and at worst contempt for what are otherwise well adopted industry standards.
 
Oct 25, 2017
248
You quoted an article that begins with with "Smash Bros. is driving people away from the online", I provided proof that that is not the case, in fact its quite the contrary. And nowhere in that article there is even proof whatsoever that the majority of users are having trouble (in any of the other articles as well).

The premise from that article is flawed from the start, and Polygon has a very bad track record about it. Again I cite the infamous Mario Kart 8 pie chart case.

Also, citing articles about the online on launch isn't telling of much at all, the game already has had some changes made to how it works online, so many of the things mentioned there are already obsolete.
I do not understand why you’re treating conversation on a gaming message board like some court of law where you feel the need to do mental gymnastics and shuffle around what you think you mean.
Full stop: tons of people have issues with playing smash online. Period. There’s been proof provided of that from multiple sources, personal and professional. Unless you’re calling all of those people liars.
 
Oct 27, 2017
88
Argentina
I do not understand why you’re treating conversation on a gaming message board like some court of law where you feel the need to do mental gymnastics and shuffle around what you think you mean.
Full stop: tons of people have issues with playing smash online. Period. There’s been proof provided of that from multiple sources, personal and professional. Unless you’re calling all of those people liars.
I'm never denied any of that nor am I calling anyone of those people liars. I'm saying that anyone that equates all those testimonies to "the majority of people have problems with the online" is straight up lying or pushing an agenda, because they have absolutely no way of knowing what percentage of players those cases represent. There is absolutely 0 data about that and yet they insist to treat it as gospel.

In fact, the only superficial information we have is that people are getting more subscriptions to NSO.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,129
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,389
i grew up with nintendo and all in alli'm stilla nintendo guy having almost all of nintendo's console buuuut,nintendo, that'0s pathetic and pretty much false advertising

is it really that hard to make a functional netcode in 2019? you would think that with all the money they have still in store they could hire some people to fix the problems with their infrastructure
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,389
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
nobody said it's easy,but we ain't exactly talking about an indie dev with limited resources here.

smash bros it's a fighting game, fighting games online have certain requirements to be met to be acceptable,and smash ain't meeting those.

if no game nowadays managed to have a stable netcode i would agree with you, but since that's not the case and we are in 2019, it's nintendo that needs to step up their game instead of the customers being understanding

EDIT:sorry for the double post
 
Jul 14, 2018
1,552
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,161
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
This is not exactly bleeding edge, other games managed this.