• The site will be down for scheduled maintenance this Friday the 24th at 2AM PST / 5AM EST / 9AM UTC while we perform a software update. We expect this process to take up to 5 hours. Thank you for your understanding and patience. New features will be included.
  • Community Spotlight sign-ups are open once again for both Gaming and EtcetEra Hangout threads! If you want to shine a spotlight on your community, please register now.

Nintendo interrupts Smash Online Invitational Qualifiers commentary to defend its netcode

Mar 14, 2018
178
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
Mate this is the most ridiculous post I've ever read. The fact that you can play Melee online via dolphin and not only get zero stutter but also get zero input lag says it all.

The truth here is that Nintendo don't have the online architecture that Microsoft and Sony do. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,408
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
I can't program or design a game but if something's a buggy mess like Fallout 76 I can still criticise it.
I can't build a car but if the wheels fall off and the engine drops out while driving I can criticise it. I doubt anyone would earnestly say that I should "blame physics" in that case.

Smash bros ultimate is not the first online game ever. It's not the only game to deal with the complicated task of sending bytes down a wire so that someone on the receiving end can send their own bytes. They're not breaking new ground, they're a multi billion dollar company charging for a service.

The premise from that article is flawed from the start, and Polygon has a very bad track record about it. Again I cite the infamous Mario Kart 8 pie chart case
How long ago was that pie chart? You need to let things go.
 
Oct 26, 2017
12,933
LMAO just saw this. Fuck off Nintendo. I get it's just some guys hired for the event, but somebody had to tell them to make these excuses right? I don't think they would outright lie this blatantly just because.
The online really sucks, but I keep playing because what else should I do...
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,646
LMAO just saw this. Fuck off Nintendo. I get it's just some guys hired for the event, but somebody had to tell them to make these excuses right? I don't think they would outright lie this blatantly just because.
That's my problem with it. Online sometimes lag but trying to make it like something different is happening is just pathetic.

Also are Buzzard and Buzzman the same person?
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,519
UK
The proof is in the pudding. Gamers know rampant lag when they see it. It's a bit hard to miss, or mistake.

Another thing that is hard to mistake is Nintendo rusted ons making lazy excuses for Nintendo's at best incompetence and at worst contempt for what are otherwise well adopted industry standards.
I'd rather people just talk about performance being poor than specifically mentioning netcode. There are a number of things that could contribute to a poor online experience, net code being just one of them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,042
I'd rather people just talk about performance being poor than specifically mentioning netcode. There are a number of things that could contribute to a poor online experience, net code being just one of them.
The game sometimes cant even handle local wireless without shitting itself. It cant seem to handle fluctuations in ping for both online and local at all, it uses input delay instead of rollback, and im not sure how much of a buffer there is but it certainly doesn't feel anything like local even when vsing people close by and when the game already has immense buffering on a lot of movements even before going online it all adds up to be kind of miserable.
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
10,119
Ibis Island
Why do people throw around the fact that the "net code" is bad when they haven't seen the code and if they did see it, wouldn't have the faintest clue how bad it is or otherwise. It could be general code within the app that causes lag, not just net code. People throw around this term like they know network coding inside out.
I mean what else are people supposed to say. The way you interact with others online isn’t as smooth as other titles. There’s no need to be so picky over terms.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,411
I'd rather people just talk about performance being poor than specifically mentioning netcode. There are a number of things that could contribute to a poor online experience, net code being just one of them.
You’re being nitpicky over nothing and for no good reason. People use netcode as shorthand, that isn’t going to change.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,878
Madrid
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.

That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
This is the most embarrassing / entertaining shit I've read all week. As an actual software engineer with a couple decades of work experience, let me advice the obvious: if all your knowledge of CS comes from reading articles online, please shut your mouth and stop showing your ass. My favorite part has to be "organizing bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte)"; literally blush-inducing Star Trek tier technobable. :D Also, if a single "start movement" event takes several freaking Kb to transmit, please fire your netcode programmer yesterday.

The truth of the matter is that lag and especially freezing in online fighting games (given a reasonable connection) is a solved problem. You don't even need to code your own solution, GGPO exists. But Nintendo insists on doing everything themselves, and in this case, doing it half-assedly. There is no excuse for this level of lag and freezing in an online fighting game today. None. Zero. The only way you can believe this is anywhere near normal is if you've not played any non-Nintendo online game in over a decade.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,005
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
Please tell me this is a parody post, no freaking way this is real.

...right?
 
Oct 28, 2017
463
Germany
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
Where is this from lol?
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,878
Madrid
Why do people throw around the fact that the "net code" is bad when they haven't seen the code and if they did see it, wouldn't have the faintest clue how bad it is or otherwise.
If a game has stutter and freezes online in the same circumstances that other similar games do not, it has bad netcode. It's really that simple. We are not judging how elegant or well-commented or extensible the code is, the only relevant metric for code quality, for us as users of the program, is functionality. In this case, its functionality is bad, therefore, the code quality is inferior. It's really that simple. There are no other magic factors at play.

"Netcode" is shorthand for "the online implementation of the game". It's every bit as legitimate to criticise it as it is to say a game is "unoptimized", especially by comparing it to competing, comparable products, even if you can't write a hello world program to save your life.

It could be general code within the app that causes lag, not just net code. People throw around this term like they know network coding inside out.
I don't even know what you're talking about. Synchronization, etc. code needed for online play that is interspersed within game logic code is netcode too. Netcode is anything that is responsible for online play, not just the client / connection layer.

Kind of hilarious seeing people going "you don't know what you're talking about, stop criticising it!" when they obviously know even less.

Please tell me this is a parody post, no freaking way this is real.

...right?
Where is this from lol?
For a second I thought "don't tell me it's copypasta and I fell for it", but I just googled "a bit is a smaller byte" and the only hit I get is this thread, so it does seems genuine. :D
 
Dec 12, 2018
460
UK
Are people really trying to argue that Nintendo can't be criticized by people who aren't network engineers? That... is a new one. I'm sure nobody arguing that has ever criticized a game's graphics without themselves being successful and competent 3D artists and engineers, right? Right.

Anyway, this is pretty sad to see. I've not been on Switch online yet, but I had hoped these issues would have been long gone by now as I was looking forward to enjoying it, and hope I still get to. Nintendo really need to use some of their resources into improving their online experiences if they want people to start paying for it.
 
Last edited:
Feb 6, 2019
418
I mean what else are people supposed to say. The way you interact with others online isn’t as smooth as other titles. There’s no need to be so picky over terms.
net code surely is not up to what Sony and Microsoft run, but whenever Nintendo online comes to topic, but the way some people react you would expect something as bad as Dial-Up tier.
 
OP
OP
Eolz
Oct 25, 2017
7,205
FR
Isn't the netcode actually made by Namco?
It is yes.
Which is why the title is about the netcode, and not Nintendo's Online, which some people are quick to blame for this issue.

If that was the issue, there'd be similar issues in most (if not all) online switch titles, and it just isn't the case.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,878
Madrid
I'd rather people just talk about performance being poor than specifically mentioning netcode. There are a number of things that could contribute to a poor online experience, net code being just one of them.
Exactly, there are a multitude of things that could affect online performance:

- Your ISP's connection quality.
- Your wifi quality.
- The other guy's ISP connection and wifi quality.
- Network congestion.
- Physical distance between you and the other guy.
- The game's online implementation (that is to say, netcode).

Criticising netcode is a far more specific thing that complaining about "online performance", and it's a perfectly legitimate thing to do. So take your own advice, and until you learn what netcode actually is, perhaps stop the ironic concern trolling about people criticising netcode without knowing what it is? Thanks.
 
Oct 25, 2017
237
Portugal
The thing that upsets me isn't that stable online play, in general, is a solved problem. My issue is that perfect online play for Smash Bros. IS a solved problem.

Case in point, last year I bought a toaster computer for 50$ from a buddy of mine (my laptop was even worse) because I found out that Project M Netplay existed. And guess what? Zero lag. Nothing. The vast majority of my online matches were as stable as playing local offline. It completely blew my mind.

Also, keep in mind that I didn't have to pay for an online subscription to achieve that. For many years, I've gotten used to Nintendo always taking the piss when it comes to online in general, but hey, at least it's free, right? Now we actually have to pay for terrible online play. Enough is enough I say.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
394
I don't get why so many Japanese companies completely ignore the rest of the world's internet infrastructure when designing them. Ensuring healthy overseas competitive scenes is more important than ever, and yet they always make half-assed solutions when GGPO exists already.
 
Mar 14, 2018
178
The thing that upsets me isn't that stable online play in general is a solved problem. My issue is that perfect online play for Smash Bros. IS a solved problem.

Case in point, last year I bought a toaster computer for 50$ from a buddy of mine (because my laptop was even worse) because I found out that Project M Netplay existed. And guess what? Zero lag. Nothing. The vast majority of my online matches were as stable as playing local offline. It completely blew my mind.

Also, keep in mind that I didn't had to pay for an online subscription to achieve that. For many years, I've gotten used to Nintendo always taking the piss when it comes to online in general, but hey, at least it's free, right? Now we actually have to pay for terrible online play. Enough is enough I say.
Playing Project M or Melee online and then playing Ultimate is incredibly eye opening.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,361
Yeah as far as online gaming goes it’s pretty shit. It’s equally as funny to watch people go on and on in rants about how shitty it is too though.
Complaining about a shitty service is funny, how? Incompetence can be funny, a service being so barebones as Nintendo's is not. Let people complain away for fuck's sake, Nintendo needs to get their shit right, if they do it'll improve everyone's experiences, including those who feel like they're hurting when Nintendo catches some flak.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,361
I've played several matches without any problems. I just don't understand how this is Nintendos fault?
Why don't the people complaining try to develop their own netcode? See how easy it is to fix everyones latency. Every single action needs more bytes to be transferred. Taking one step forward with a character? That's probably SEVERAL THOUSAND BYTES that have to travel possibly hundreds of miles within a second. For comparison sake, A text message is 140 bytes . So imagine that you're sending like atleast a dozen or more text messages simultaneously.
That's why latency happens.


That's not even counting the stress on the hardware. When it suddenly gets this influx of more bytes, it has to delete already existing bytes on the "memory" (also known as RAM), that can cause the game console to get bogged down while having to organize these bytes into bits (a bit is a smaller byte) to save space while at the same time accepting delivery for bytes through the internet.
Ridiculous to blame the devs, blame physics.
LMAO! This is a meme, right? It has to be.
 

Aigis

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,995
You quoted an article that begins with with "Smash Bros. is driving people away from the online", I provided proof that that is not the case, in fact its quite the contrary. And nowhere in that article there is even proof whatsoever that the majority of users are having trouble (in any of the other articles as well).

The premise from that article is flawed from the start, and Polygon has a very bad track record about it. Again I cite the infamous Mario Kart 8 pie chart case.

Also, citing articles about the online on launch isn't telling of much at all, the game already has had some changes made to how it works online, so many of the things mentioned there are already obsolete.
For the first bit, that was never the point, dont make some strawman by tackling only what you want to tackle instead of the fact that it was about the shitty online. The "proof" you posted literally has 0.0 to do with anything, even if people stopped they immediately get unsubbed. Your entire point is lunacy

Then again, I direct you to the various other sources I posted

Then post me an article where it says it was fixed, "it was just terrible before" wont fly. This attitude of "this isnt everyone, so I guess we will never know" is nonsense. Its like saying "botw isnt a loved game even though tons of people love it since we didnt ask literally everyone in existence if they liked it". Just throwing up your hands and saying I guess we will never truly know is just too ridiculous
 
Oct 25, 2017
416
I'll repeat myself but 90% of the issues I had with the game (which occur too often) show the typical issues of a bad wireless connection, such as unfrequent lags caused by package loss. The Switch's wireless capabilities are reportedly very bad and I can easily believe it when playing Smash. I rarely have any issues when playing friends I know are using a wired connection.

I sincerely hope they'll one day add connection quality/wired connection to their matchmaking algorithms. But who am I kidding, that's not happening.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,045
THey still have bufferbloat last time I checked.

There's no lag, except they use a garbage packet scheduler by default with offloads on that will add more lag than is needed to generate the packets.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,188
The online is trash for Smash which is really upsetting. I got it for myself and my nephew so we could play and it's so laggy on my end I literally can't even play with him.