1. Yep

    Yep
    Member

    I don't understand how people can tell it's the same on PS4 and One.
    When i go on the PS Store, many ads for the latests AAA are welcoming me, publisher are litteraly paying for more visibility, things indies can't do at the same level.
    Add that the fact that they give for free games every months, it's near the opposite of the concept of not devaluating games...
     
  2. Would be interesting to see how sales on other platforms increase if there is no PS4 version. I think many multi-consoleros wait for PSN freebies instead of buying the game on PS4 or Switch, Team, etc.
     
  3. ggx2ac

    ggx2ac
    Member OP

    The articles haven't been fully translated because that would've taken a lot of work.

    Someone else would probably have to translate the rest of it.
     
  4. Oniletter

    Oniletter
    Member

    Because all of these are significantly weaker IPs (and games) and all of them bombed anyway ( except for maybe Ratchet), so Sony did nothing but cut in their own profit margin by selling their games for cheap.
     
  5. eseqko

    eseqko
    Member

    I think Nintendo’s best curation system has been the “Coming Soon” section as there will always be a Nintendo game on it, but a lot of good indies in between, not just everything that is coming out.
     
  6. Medalion

    Medalion
    Member

    I check the eshop daily in all the categories... I learn about all sorts of new and upcoming releases that randomly get added in advance or out of nowhere... it's great to be surprised once in awhile
     
  7. Quakeguy

    Quakeguy
    Banned Member

    "We want indie games that are being sold at $15 on steam to be $60 on Switch.
    Its just all about how we value them"

    Nothing about Nintendo trying to get that extra profit, not at all.
     
  8. Jpop

    Jpop
    Banned Member


    It is odd that you are only pointing out 2D platformers?

    Are they somehow less in value.

    Your argument is stale and old.

    That wasn't said anywhere at all. Feel free to make up Fake News and Quotes.
     
  9. LightEntite

    LightEntite
    Member

    hahaha....if I was Nintendo, I wouldn't label Indie games "INDIE" on my shop either

    it just puts a big highlighter on the biggest issue with Nintendo console libraries -- lack of 3rd party AAA titles

    of course they want to treat Indie games as AAA games lol
     
  10. Jpop

    Jpop
    Banned Member

    Or they value a diverse ecosystem like any company would?

    I'm sure that take wouldn't satisfy your need to troll though.
     
  11. LightEntite

    LightEntite
    Member

    Nah, i'm pretty sure what you're looking at here is a greater amount of competition for attention/downloads on PS4. There are tons of indie games :(and thus indie studios) i've been exposed to on PS+ that i never would have bothered with if I didn't get them for free.

    On Switch though, it's presence is amplified because it's being showcased in a smaller room. It's easier to notice, and so it's more likely to be bought there.
     
  12. Arthands

    Arthands
    Member

    No need to twist the meaning just because Nintendo is successful now. They say nothing about the monetary value here
     
  13. Gidim

    Gidim
    Member

    I think people here saying that PlayStation Plus devalues games and properties aren't seeing the full picture. For example PlayStation Plus giving away Yakuza 4 and 5 made Yakuza 0 a huge hit. I've talked to some indie developers (for example Screaming Villains that did the Night Trap port) and he said Sony treated him great while Microsoft totally ignored him.

    Again, it depends. For what I heard Sony treats developers great and some have told me that Plus help them move copies of their games. Rocket League was one of those games that got help from Plus when it came out.
     
  14. tyfon

    tyfon
    Member

    And here I want an "indie" filter on the eshop..
    Doesn't look like that is going to happen.

    I'm not against indie games but they require research to separate the good from the bad and I usually get the tip on what is good and not on this forum.
    Right now the eshop feels more like browsing google play store than a console shop.
     
  15. LightEntite

    LightEntite
    Member

    I remember looking for information about this, and most people generally say it's a good deal to have their game featured on PS+.

    That, and many games get a shot at gathering attention that they likely wouldnt have gotten otherwise

    This mostly just strikes me as smoke and mirrors here....I don't see how removing the distinction between "this was made by 7 people" vs "this was made by 90" is really doing anything great for indies. Most of these games are also releasing on other consoles and Steam naturally....i mean the only people you're really gonna be fooling are those who just don't know any better, which of course just seems disingenuous
     
  16. Not2Xavi

    Not2Xavi
    Member

    [​IMG]
     
  17. LightEntite

    LightEntite
    Member

    i'm also dead ass serious lol

    saying you want to treat indie games the same as AAA games by removing the distinction (as in, even in the E-shop) is something that I feel will help Nintendo alot more than anyone else

    making a distinction between AAA and Indie isn't "Devaluing" indies, it's just being honest -- you shouldn't expect the same out of game that cost 5 guys nothing but sweat and living expenses, as you would a game that had 40 paid employees and a marketing team working on it.


    The range of quality and development costs between "indies" is pretty massive, and snobs aside, most people are going to buy what looks cool to them regardless of whether or not it has the "indie" tag on it.

    This just strikes me as another smart PR move from Nintendo. It doesn't make it morally wrong or anything, but out of all the platforms to consume indie games, this is something that ONLY Nintendo would ever really benefit from doing. There's nothing inherently indie friendly about Nintendo or its policies...hell in fact i'd honestly expect them to be the least welcoming of bunch, depending on what kind of indie game you're peddling. I take Nintendo's words with a grain of salt.
     
  18. Mr_Moogle

    Mr_Moogle
    Member

    I think the Switch is the first Nintendo console where I don't give a fuck about the lack of third party support. As long as they keep releasing great first party games and the indies keep flowing in the quiet months, I'm well sorted. I didn't buy a Switch so I could play fucking Skyrim anyway.
     
  19. OrbitalBeard

    OrbitalBeard
    Self-Requested Ban Member

    PS+ has absolutely helped a number of developers in a big way. I do believe it's devalued indies for a large portion of the audience though. But to be fair, I'm sure a number of these users weren't interested in most indies to begin with.

    Eh, I'm happy to have games like Skyrim and DOOM as well and I hope we receive more titles like them in the coming months and years.
     
  20. Lady Lunalesca

    Lady Lunalesca
    Banned Member

    I agree with this post 100% especially the bolded. Hopefully when major games finally come out it will happen. The thing is quite a few of them are still full price and dirt cheap on other platforms out of the gate. The Switch tax is ridiculous. The deals section is also terrible. I just can't justify the prices.
     
  21. Mr_Moogle

    Mr_Moogle
    Member

    More game is always good but third party support really shouldn't be on anybody's list of priorities when buying a Nintendo console. You'd be setting yourself up for disappointment.
     
  22. OrbitalBeard

    OrbitalBeard
    Self-Requested Ban Member

    I actually expect plenty of third party support moving forward. Mainly last gen remasters but also the occasional downport like DOOM and lots of mid-tier Japanese titles, like Valkyria Chronicles 4.
     
  23. Mr_Moogle

    Mr_Moogle
    Member

    I've seen it happen over and over again where you see Nintendo snag a couple of really decent third party games in the early part of a new console's life cycle and you start thinking to yourself "wow maybe third parties actually give a fuck about Nintendo now" only to see the support all dry up and most of the major publishers bail in the second and third year. I'm not getting my hopes up.
     
  24. Virtu Al

    Virtu Al
    Member

    I quote this guy, because I agree so much, the coming soon section is awesome and caused me and my siblings to find out about lots of cool upcoming games we wouldn't have found out about otherwise.

    It's a really good way to warn people about titles they may want to keep an eye on.
     
  25. jariw

    jariw
    Member

    If you want that "honesty" on the eShop, you can do do a price search, which should filter the products to your liking.
     
  26. OrbitalBeard

    OrbitalBeard
    Self-Requested Ban Member

    I haven't seen that occur with a Nintendo system like Switch. A Nintendo console that has actually fostered a large, hardcore community of traditional game players. GCN and Wii U were never successful past the first couple months and Wii exploded with a different type of player (and actually received very strong third party support for that audience).
     
  27. jariw

    jariw
    Member

    So you're saying that you need to make an informed decision as a customer to decide which indies are good and which are bad? How is this a different process for you than with AAA games?

    And as I said above: If you want to filter out the indies, use price filtering.
     
  28. Ephonk

    Ephonk
    Member

    I see this as normal, in the sense that indies kind of replaced the AA / handheld type of games that aren't made by the big studios anymore. To me Indies replace a lot of the types of software I enjoyed on the GBA/DS and to a lesser degree 3DS.
     
  29. Kokonoe

    Kokonoe
    Member

    Budget doesn't equate to a good game nor does it equate to good design, effort put in, great artwork, great music, etc. Most games with large budgets end up having shallow ass gameplay in my experience compared to smaller dev teams that focus on what made me like games in the first place which is the mechanics and content. So no, I completely disagree with this notion. Indie games are games, and if there's a bad game then that just means it's because the game was bad just like how that was a thing 15 years ago.

    Honestly the term "indie" is dumb in itself as it has various different meanings and even large companies can be called "indie" which isn't what people consider when they think of that word so the more we shy away from that term the better.
     
  30. tyfon

    tyfon
    Member

    The signal to noise ratio is just so much higher when mixing in a ton of indies.
    There are some good indies but personally I don't like the "modern pixel graphics" games and it's just easier to find games that I like in the AA space. I'm not really that into AAA games either depending on the definition. Often the trailer video is enough to seal a buy but I don't want to click through 20 trailers to find one that I like.
    I could filter on price but then I'm not getting the discount deals that tend to make me impulse buy on the psn shop.
    As the eshop is right now it's just not appealing to me and I tend to avoid it.

    There are more reasons though for avoiding the eshop for me, I can't share any of those games with my wife or daughter who also have their own switches. But that is getting off topic.
     
  31. Yep

    Yep
    Member

    There is two different things, PS+ in a way pay well the developpers, there is no problem with that, if your game is successful via this way, then you're gonna get well paid.
    But the thing is, it really devalues games to the consumers, which feels that these games are free, or not expensive, so they won't want to pay for these at their real price, and that's totally devaluating.
     
  32. LightEntite

    LightEntite
    Member

    yes

    you're selectively ignoring a bunch of trash ass games from smaller dev teams in order to suggest this
     
  33. Jedeye Sniv

    Jedeye Sniv
    Member

    Interesting, is this why every fucking indie is more expensive on Switch then? Their pricing structure is such bullshit.
     
  34. Oregano

    Oregano
    Member

    Developers/Publishers set their own prices.
     
  35. Drencrom

    Drencrom
    Member

    Well, that's quite an ignorant statement regarding indie sales on PSN

    Lol @ ungrateful parasites
     
  36. Aniki

    Aniki
    Member

    When it comes to Nintendo handhelds, i expect japanese third parties to be there. Since the Switch is a hybrid, that was always my expectation. Western third parties are a nice extra. Of course having them on your platform is a huge boon and is very welcomed.

    But with the advent of indies, which i don't personally seperate from other games when it comes to the quality of the experience, i think Nintendo isn't as far behind when it comes to the support of third parties. Especially since big AAA games that are being made, are so much fewer in numbers, compared to past generations.
     
  37. Beje

    Beje
    Member

    Same thing happen with extremely aggressive offers. Steam fostered a culture where a lot of people just wait to buy a game when it's >75% discounted because they know it will happen sooner or later. Even though I do get advantage of it as a consumer (who wouldn't?) I understand it can lead to an unsustainable business model that can hurt everyone in the long run. 15% to 35% discounts with the spare >50% here and there seems to be the healthy medium point imho (at least that's what I get from seeing the eShop offers page), and Nintendo themselves should stop being afraid of doing it with their own games from time to time.
     
  38. LightEntite

    LightEntite
    Member

    First off, none of these games are "free" because they require a PS+ subscription to download and to play, which requires paying for...And I dont understand how this "devalues" said games when they can be considered a significant factor in even obtaining a PS+ subscription in the first place. Good indie support and platforming has been a central pillar of every console of this generation.

    Just because Nintendo swoops in with their regularly scheduled PR and says they don't want to "DEVALUE" indie games doesn't mean their angle has any real merit to it, they're just doing what they do best -- saving face.


    The unfortunate reason multiplatform nintendo switch games cost more than on other consoles
     
  39. Mizavari

    Mizavari
    Member

    Well, as some have pointed out, Nintendo itself develops or publishes mid-budget, indie-like games:
    - 1-2 Switch
    - Snipperclips
    - Flip Wars
    - Picross
    It's also released a bunch of small and unusual titles in the past, such as Nintendogs, Rhythm Heaven, Brain Age, Wii Sports etc.

    So, in a way, it also benefits from growing an audience for smaller titles that offer unusual gameplay.
     
  40. Jedeye Sniv

    Jedeye Sniv
    Member

  41. test_account

    test_account
    Member

    I agree with that Nintendo isnt exactly playing catch up here, but to call it "free trash" just because its "free" (you pay for the subscription) is also counter productive in my opinion. I get the notion, but calling it "free trash" maintains the idea that the games are shit simply because they are "free".

    Its also the developers themself who want to be a part of these things. They get payed to be a part of the monthly "free" games on PS+ and Xbox Live Gold. Its the same thing with Humble Bundle and Steam sales, its the developers themself who participate in those things.


    Then you would avoid PC and mobile too? Those also have big sales, and stuff like Humble Bundle. Not to speak of that the comeptition for indie games on PC and mobile is massive.
     
  42. [looks at more than a dozen of indie games currently in stores as well as more coming out with retail releases in the future]

    What?
     
  43. LightEntite

    LightEntite
    Member

    They do what they do because they know they can get away with it. IMO, articles like this is precisely how they manage to get away with things like this, when no other company would really have the benefit of the doubt.


    It's not because they think they can get away with it, or because they're greedy, but because "the current model devalues Indies and we view them as equal to AAA games and we don't want to discriminate".

    So when some consumer-unfortunate disparity happens (that you won't find on other platforms), it's okay because Nintendo is "all about games" and are doing it for the "greater good", and not just obviously for themselves, you know like everyone else. Not even specifically talking about the Eshop pricing right now, but just in general.

    I've come to really dislike the corporate side of Nintendo. They have a great 1st-party development studio, but i personally feel like the majority of their marketing is pretty deeply rooted in pure disingeniousness, moreso than any other developer. they do the same thing every generation, make the same promises, the same misdirections and lies, but instead of just admitting and owning their faults, they push the narrative that they're simply above all of them because whatever they're currently doing is so much bigger than it actually is. And it works sooooo well that I can't even really be mad at the strategy.
     
  44. Yep

    Yep
    Member

    Yeah Steam are way worse offender in the devaluation of the indies, that's sure.

    They are not free, they are really cheap at most, for 1 month of PS+ you have 8 games per month, how is that not a ridiculous price for a software?
    And for many of the customers they pay for the Online, the games are "a plus" i see really often people talking about free games when adressing PS+ games...

    If the consumer estimate that the value of 8 indies games a month is 8€ that's the principle behind devaluation, the consumer don't estimate than the real price of games is the true price, so they find real price too expensive, leading to dev needing to sell games at lower price to sell... Basic devaluation of the market then
     
  45. Jedeye Sniv

    Jedeye Sniv
    Member

    Physical releases are nice for people that want them, but are the exception rather than the rule. For example, Celeste (excellent game, no physical release) was a good £3 more expensive on Switch than PS4 iirc. There's no good reason for that.

    It's a bit like closing the door after the horse has bolted. The market has already said what they value various types of indies at. Nintendo are actively discouraging people like me (ie, people who don't just buy to "support the platform" but just want good games at reasonable prices) from buying games on their platform because of their pricing.
     
  46. And it had price parity in the US and the like. That just seems to be a market discrepancy than anything. It’s like how Latin america’s eShops have different prices on their side also.
     
  47. Shpeshal Ed

    Shpeshal Ed
    Member

    Sounds similar to what Microsoft said about indies and why they were no longer separate on the store anymore. “Games are games”.
     
  48. Oregano

    Oregano
    Member

    Nintendo doesn't set the price for other developer's games. They're not actively discouraging anything when it comes to third party games.
     
  49. LightEntite

    LightEntite
    Member

    1) how many of these customers do you think would individually buy these 8 games you're talking about if there as no such subscription service to provide them to you? Would they even know they existed?

    2) just how much do you think these games should be selling for? Just how much do you think people are willing to pay?

    3) Where are all the indie developers complaining about this supposed "DEVALUING" issue that PS+ was causing before Nintendo came and planted this idea in your head?


    Most importantly, if $8 for 8 somewhat relevant indie games is "DEVALUING" to you...please tell me how you would choose to describe a $7.99 digital port of Super Metroid (and ONLY Super Metroid) from 1994 for WiiU or 3DS. I'm really curious.
     
  50. Yep

    Yep
    Member

    1) advertising and making games know have totally no links, devaluation only talks about monetary values of things, there are many ways to make games know without almost giving them.

    2) the selling Price of a game is the price the dev sells them, he is the best to decide how much to sell them, because he is in the known of the price enabling him to be Well paid for his work, time spent, employees and that's even more important for small companies

    3) haha sure Nintendo is brainwashing me. For information i'm a dev myself, my wife is a sewstress, and have many graphists friends so i directly feels the results of devaluation on few domains, that can be clients not willing to pay for clothes because in supermarket it's less expensive, or graphism/dev market completly screwed by devaluation because some are making illustration free or cheap, why would i pay more for seemingly semblable things?

    In my opinion if a game was good and is not outdated now, who am i to decide that the company bringing it to me don't deserve money for that? Every thing has value, and i'm willing to pay for that, and even if i don't see the value, then fine, it's not for me but i won't blame anyone for being interested.