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Amiablepercy

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,587
California
Hey could we ban accusing people of being pedophiles over video games or

Some people are coming off very disturbing so it stands to reason perhaps hyperbolic pushback will occur. There is problematic things going on here that are all part of a certain aspects of a culture whose specific contents hews far too close to being at the very least pedophilia adjacent. I've legitimately been troubled by some people's hand waving of the sexualization of minors.
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
Some people are coming off very disturbing so it stands to reason perhaps hyperbolic pushback will occur. There is problematic things going on here that are all part of a certain aspects of a culture whose specific contents hews far too close to being at the very least pedophilia adjacent. I've legitimately been troubled by some people's hand waving of the sexualization of minors.
Yeah I mean it's awkward for me to be on the same side as the weird pro-snuff film dude but also: They're all, like, 17 and could easily pass as 20-year olds, and I don't even think they're dressed that skimpy. I have seen real 17-year olds dress in public like they do in this game.

Like, in comparison, although I'm still of a "leave the game as is" mentality, that Lin costume in Xenoblade X was definitely yikes.
 
Last edited:

Łazy

Member
Nov 1, 2017
5,249
...Because you're living in a bubble. And the implicit "I didn't see it, therefore it never happened, la la la la" definitely makes you ignorant.
That's not really what I said. You're making it bigger than it was.
Obviously I didn't follow 100% of forums and social media for every games. But when you seen many not talking about X or Y but much more of Z, there's that. That's all.

Wow... I stop here. The topic went too extreme and I don't want to be seen as someone who agrees with pedophilia or something, which would be preposterous.
 

Oddish1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,818
The problem is internet warriors who don't stop to think about what they are defending. They have the NRA attitude of 'Not one inch' when it comes to what they consider censorship but is actually localization. They lack the perspective that what they are fighting for is to see goddamn underage kids in bikinis
The entire "censorship" debate is just a proxy in a larger culture war. If companies forced artists to make their characters sexier and wear less clothes they wouldn't give a shit because it's not about "artistic freedom" or whatever they claim they're defending. It's about them wanting to continue having underage characters in bikinis and striking out at those who don't want that.

Don't buy into their narrative about defending free speech or being concerned about censorship. It is 100% horseshit.
 

Amiablepercy

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,587
California
Yeah I mean it's awkward for me to be on the same side as the weird pro-snuff film dude but also: They're all, like, 17 and could easily pass as 20-year olds, and I don't even think they're dressed that skimpy. I have seen real 17-year olds dress in public like they do in this game.

Maybe you are also witnessing a problem with 2019 culture and media trend collateral in general. It vexed me and sometimes makes me feel hopeless. I know what you mean I was at The Grove in Los Angeles earlier and literally 13ish girls were dressed in scantily clad ways. I don't get it and think about my own daughter and what influences she is buying into.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
Obviously I didn't follow 100% of forums and social media for every games. But when you seen many not talking about X or Y but much more of Z, there's that.
That's "I didn't see it so it didn't happen/doesn't matter". Which tells me you literally haven't been paying attention.

Yeah I mean it's awkward for me to be on the same side as the weird pro-snuff film dude but also: They're all, like, 17 and could easily pass as 20-year olds, and I don't even think they're dressed that skimpy. I have seen real 17-year olds dress in public like they do in this game.
"they could pass for adults" doesn't hold water when they could just be written as adults and all of this could have been avoided from the inception of the project very, very easily. But no-- the fact that they are 17 is meant to be part of the appeal.

"I have seen real 17 year olds dress this way" also doesn't hold water when those kids aren't consenting to a game's camera (and thus the viewer) leering at them.

But sure "they could easily pass as 20 year olds". That's some "She's a 1,000 year old dragon so it's okay" stuff right there.
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
"I have seen real 17 year olds dress this way" also doesn't hold water when those kids aren't consenting to a game's camera (and thus the viewer) leering at them.

But sure "they could easily pass as 20 year olds". That's some "She's a 1,000 year old dragon so it's okay" stuff right there.
1) These characters also aren't real and thus can't consent on basis of how, like, fiction itself works, so there's that.

2) It is literally the exact opposite of the "1,000 year old dragon" thing. That's about characters looking way younger than their canon age, this is about characters that at least could appear older than that (partially because the art style isn't exactly super detailed)

And I think going "Oh, she's only canonically 17 you pedo" is asinine in the same way that going "Oh, she's 1000 years old it's fine" is asinine.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
1) These characters also aren't real and thus can't consent on basis of how, like, fiction itself works, so there's that.

2) It is literally the exact opposite of the "1,000 year old dragon" thing. That's about characters looking way younger than their canon age, this is about characters that at least could appear older than that (partially because the art style isn't exactly super detailed)

And I think going "Oh, she's only canonically 17 you pedo" is asinine in the same way that going "Oh, she's 1000 years old it's fine" is asinine.
"She looks 20 so it's fine" is literally the excuse adults use to chase after real fucking 17 year olds (and younger!!!!). It's not fucking acceptable in real life so why should it be acceptable here?
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
No I'm saying "She looks 20 so it's fine" is literally the excuse adults use to chase after real fucking 17 year olds. It's not fucking acceptable in real life so why should it be acceptable here?
Yeah, but, as I said, these characters don't actually exist and as such their age is 100% arbitrary.

Like, I never played, and probably never will play this game because I think it looks unappealing and dumb, but calling people pedophiles over something that's probably surfaced solely in, like, the game's "characters" section or whatever is not particularly helpful discussion.

(also all of these characters are past the AOC where I am so there's that)
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382

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Deleted member 2652

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,434
Yeah, but, as I said, these characters don't actually exist and as such their age is 100% arbitrary.

Like, I never played, and probably never will play this game because I think it looks unappealing and dumb, but calling people pedophiles over something that's probably surfaced solely in, like, the game's "characters" section or whatever is not particularly helpful discussion.

(also all of these characters are past the AOC where I am so there's that)
i'm amazed at your ability to be so uninvested and invested at the same time
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
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Okay ignore what I said and instead focus on nitpicking that cool
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
Yeah, but, as I said, these characters don't actually exist and as such their age is 100% arbitrary.

Like, I never played, and probably never will play this game because I think it looks unappealing and dumb, but calling people pedophiles over something that's probably surfaced solely in, like, the game's "characters" section or whatever is not particularly helpful discussion.

(also all of these characters are past the AOC where I am so there's that)
tell us more about age of consent laws
And if their ages are arbitrary. Why did they decide to specify that they were children? The game certainly never paints that attitude as creepy, so it must be there for appeal.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,120
It's literally like a /v/ thread in here talking about censorship and artistic integrity of sexualizing teenagers.

If a game not sexualizing high schoolers is seen as tainting the product, what does that say about the product?
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
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I think you need to take a breath there
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
sure thing mr. "age is arbitrary"
More like "Canonical age is an arbitrary concept in fiction and a skimpy costume for someone who is canonically 17 in a game and costume for someone who is canonically 18 is not more pedophilic than the other because none of these characters exist and it is an anime-style game where ages are not particularly distinct"

Like, in real life the minutia here matters a lot more, obviously.
 

Deleted member 2652

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,434
"i wish people would stop calling others pedophiles. now with that out of the way let's talk about my opinions on 17 year old anime ladies"
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
More like "Canonical age is an arbitrary concept in fiction and a skimpy costume for someone who is canonically 17 in a game and costume for someone who is canonically 18 is not more pedophilic than the other because none of these characters exist and it is an anime-style game where ages are not particularly distinct"
i mean, literally is. why did they do it then?
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,214
Canada
Yeah, but, as I said, these characters don't actually exist and as such their age is 100% arbitrary.

Like, I never played, and probably never will play this game because I think it looks unappealing and dumb, but calling people pedophiles over something that's probably surfaced solely in, like, the game's "characters" section or whatever is not particularly helpful discussion.

(also all of these characters are past the AOC where I am so there's that)


None of this exists in a vacuum.

Women are frequently harassed in the industry and female players are frequently told to back off when raising issues about how they're harassed or how they dislike female representation in games. These characters and this situation might not """be real""" because it's just a game, but they exist in a world informed by reality and marketing decisions that often reinforce harmful stereotypes. Women are literally ignored in the industry and they're ignored even now while men keep insisting, nay, viciously yelling into internet chambers that "those damn sneaky feminists are ruining EVERYTHING" (but really it's just that women want SOME crumb bit of respect, and it's just a minor patch up job on an other alright video game).

And please. if people want to get their kink-on, there's porno literally everywhere on the internet, why does it always always always have to steep into popular and mass-consumed popular culture?? Why MIGHT a big company like Nintendo try to make their product more accessible by not advertising its more perverted elements?? #FE is a pretty great game that awkwardly dips into more risque themes. Worse, is that it obliviously backpedals on its themes by making a "creepy character" a plot point one minute, then switching its stance for a pervy look at most of its female cast.

As a girl, the amount of times I sorta roll my eyes when guys are like DAMN THOSE TITS ARE FUKEN FIIIIIIRE 🔥
like we're not even there.
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
I dunno man I didn't play the fucking game, but I guess a lot of people enter the idol industry that age so that's probably why.
And why is that? (Appeal, the answer is appeal) The game does not do any sort of commentary with this, it glamorizes it.

So is it surprising that people are offput by a very real thing that happens with no negative commentary attached to it because it's targeted at men who are into it?
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,972
thanks for informing me that anime characters don't exist
didn't know that until now. everything is suddenly different
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
And why is that? (Appeal, the answer is appeal) The game does not do any sort of commentary with this, it glamorizes it.

So is it surprising that people are offput by a very real thing that happens with no negative commentary attached to it because it's targeted at men who are into it?
Look my point was not "This game handles its themes well" it's "Don't baselessly call people pedophiles and also most of the changes are prudish and look fucking stupid"
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
If I'm honest, I feel like they went a little overboard with that wedding dress change. Like covering up the cleavage is totally understandable but the additions to her arms and shoulders look a bit unnatural. Like the outfit looks more Swan Lake than wedding outfit now.
Just as a brief aside here, the dress gets called a 'wedding dress' as obviously an ornate white dress is going to have that comparison, but the theme of the song is a typical pop one of taking flight as an analogy for gaining confidence/growing up/freedom etc. A visual from the animation is her looking up at birds as a little girl, and the feathers and wings she's wearing are a reference to that. So 'swan lake' perhaps isn't so far from what they were aiming at there (although considering that the conflation of swan-maidens and weddings in Swan Lake is pretty much endless tragedy maybe that's not quite such a good thing) :-)
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
Look my point was not "This game handles its themes well" it's "Don't baselessly call people pedophiles and also most of the changes are prudish and look fucking stupid"
How would it be baseless? If it "doesn't handle its themes well" then it's not a theme it's just a portrayal meant to jerk off to lol
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
thanks for informing me that anime characters don't exist
didn't know that until now. everything is suddenly different
Yep yep, it's totally fine. "age is 100% arbitrary" -- Error 52, 2019. Nothing wrong here. Definitely shouldn't examine these attitudes towards the culture we consume.

Okay okay i'll stop harping on this now but y'all are making my blood boil with this rancid, toxic garbage that is somehow allowed on this site. I need a drink, and I don't even drink.
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing concerns regarding the sexualised depiction of minors over multiple posts; prior ban for similar behavior
"age is 100% arbitrary" -- Error 52, 2019

Okay okay i'll stop harping on this now but y'all are making my blood boil with this rancid, toxic garbage that is somehow allowed on this site
Age is 100% arbitrary in this one specific context relating to fiction
 

Deleted member 2652

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,434
None of this exists in a vacuum.

Women are frequently harassed in the industry and female players are frequently told to back off when raising issues about how they're harassed or how they dislike female representation in games. These characters and this situation might not """be real""" because it's just a game, but they exist in a world informed by reality and marketing decisions that often reinforce harmful stereotypes. Women are literally ignored in the industry and they're ignored even now while men keep insisting, nay, viciously yelling into internet chambers that "those damn sneaky feminists are ruining EVERYTHING" (but really it's just that women want SOME crumb bit of respect, and it's just a minor patch up job on an other alright video game).

And please. if people want to get their kink-on, there's porno literally everywhere on the internet, why does it always always always have to steep into popular and mass-consumed popular culture?? Why MIGHT a big company like Nintendo try to make their product more accessible by not advertising its more perverted elements?? #FE is a pretty great game that awkwardly dips into more risque themes. Worse, is that it obliviously backpedals on its themes by making a "creepy character" a plot point one minute, then switching its stance for a pervy look at most of its female cast.

As a girl, the amount of times I sorta roll my eyes when guys are like DAMN THOSE TITS ARE FUKEN FIIIIIIRE 🔥
like we're not even there.
just wanted to acknowledge this good ass post
 

Zeno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,150
Just as a brief aside here, the dress gets called a 'wedding dress' as obviously an ornate white dress is going to have that comparison, but the theme of the song is a typical pop one of taking flight as an analogy for gaining confidence/growing up/freedom etc. A visual from the animation is her looking up at birds as a little girl, and the feathers and wings she's wearing are a reference to that. So 'swan lake' perhaps isn't so far from what they were aiming at there (although considering that the conflation of swan-maidens and weddings in Swan Lake is pretty much endless tragedy maybe that's not quite such a good thing) :-)
That's neat. Thanks for the explanation.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,786
Yeah, but, as I said, these characters don't actually exist and as such their age is 100% arbitrary.

Like, I never played, and probably never will play this game because I think it looks unappealing and dumb, but calling people pedophiles over something that's probably surfaced solely in, like, the game's "characters" section or whatever is not particularly helpful discussion.

(also all of these characters are past the AOC where I am so there's that)
You are blatantly ignoring some factors here.
You simply have to ask yourself this: If they knew prior that the game was going to involve characters wearing skimpy outfits and posing suggestively, why did they make the active decision to make the characters underaged?

And you're going to find that most answers to that question aren't particularly pleasant.
 

jerk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
751
You are blatantly ignoring some factors here.
You simply have to ask yourself this: If they knew prior that the game was going to involve characters wearing skimpy outfits and posing suggestively, why did they make the active decision to make the characters underaged?

And you're going to find that most answers to that question aren't particularly pleasant.
but age of consent laws
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Hahaha so many people whining about the 'censorship' in this thread were going apeshit about that one shitty Kotaku article. None of you are fooling anyone. I can't believe this thread this so fucking long either.

It's localization, and honestly good localization at that. The 'gravure' elements of the idol industry tend to be exploitative, and the game has absolutely 0 critique of the idol industry as a whole, or the gravure stuff in particular, so it makes sense they would remove that for a western audience...because people would recognize it as exploitative here.

They also made the characters 18 instead of 17 because even without the gravure elements, a lot of the stuff they are doing in the game seems exploitative unless the characters are adults. Bravely Default also did that, as have many other JRPGs...which is a good thing. Saying "in the western version they are 18 so why not have the swimsuit shit back in"...like idk, maybe we should reflect on how our society thinks it's fine to exploit 18 year olds because they're not 17 anymore? Idk, just a thought.

As for people comparing this game to YA works that feature sexual themes like Inio Asano or something...its not comparable. Obviously fiction should be able to show teenage sexuality in a tasteful or meaningful way because that's part of life...but that's not what this game was doing. It was titillation for titillation's sake, and that's kind of skeevy and not something Nintendo wants to do for the western market.
 

Error 52

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
2,032
Except it's not because it's the exact same attitude creeps have towards real girls but apparently reality doesn't matter when you're off living in a fantasy world
Look, I might not be explaining myself super well here but what I'm trying to say is that the characters aren't exactly lolibait, and their canonical age being a bit iffy doesn't change that.

It makes it a little weird, I do get that, but, again, it doesn't make people against these changes fucking pedophiles.

Like, I'm not even really opposed to the decision to age up the girls. Wouldn't make that change myself if it were up to me as I'm of the "leave japanese games as is, icky parts and all" mindset most of the time but, y'know, I totally get it.
 

Daysean

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,383
Now I remember why I avoided TMS threads. Gross gross gross.
The game is fun though
As someone who thought it was going to be shit and disappointed at the initial SMT x FE Concept Teaser, I was pleasantly surprised by the gameplay mechanics
I wanted it to get ported to the switch alongside Xenoblade X but i never expected it to actually happen, hell i thought W101 would get it before they did