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Nintendo releases video about Metroid Prime 4 development - Currently below expectations - Will redo from scratch with Retro Studios
- Thread starter ggx2ac
- Start date
Or unless it already is finished, or is close enough to being finished that other people at Retro can start pre-production on a different title.
Game development doesn't work with 200 people starting on the project on day one and the same 200 people still being involved on the ship date. Different people work on the project on different times.
Just how long do you all think Nintendo is expecting to give Retro to finish this?
i hope we get whatever they've been working on for these five years in 2019, at least. Surprise us with that!
I kind of love the "WHAT THE FUCK HAVE THEY BEEN DOING!?" mystery, to be honest.
At least until it is confirmed to be NOTHING.
Then I'll be a little sad.
I kind of love the "WHAT THE FUCK HAVE THEY BEEN DOING!?" mystery, to be honest.
At least until it is confirmed to be NOTHING.
Then I'll be a little sad.
The announcement of which they used in an extremely direct form of public damage control to maintain fan confidence in the project.
And I mean hell, you could even set aside the high expectations for Prime and just look at it this way - literally no one would say "hey, this project we've sunk years of costs into is flailing, let's start it over from scratch at that one incompetent studio we have", regardless of what the project is and how important it is.
I think that people who assume that it was a gameplay problem, are wrong. I think it was a code management and timing problem.
Even if the rumor about the previous setup incorporating a collaboration between teams scattered around the world is false, there can still be a point at which you evaluate the work of a team, and come to the conclusion that their progress is nowhere near as good as you expect it to be. Something might not work as well as you thought it would, and the projected release data is suddenly further than you hoped it'd be.
Which leads into Retro's involvement. It's entirely possible that Retro were busy with another project, and at some point in time, their work schedule freed up enough that they could take on the new game. And Retro are a mostly known quantity - to Nintendo, involving Retro in the project is a massive benefit, not just because they're known as the makers of the original Metroid Prime, but also because they're all around a good development team.
But, switching developers halfway into the project is a terrible idea, because as anyone who ever tried joining an ongoing GitHub project knows, someone else's code takes a long while to learn, and if you have your own ways of doing things then you may end up redoing them all over the codebase just to make everything familiar enough. Thus, it's almost certain that for a major developer switch, it's a far better option to completely scrap the codebase and start anew. It's possible to keep some things, and possibly most of the assets, but even if Retro were to step in and make the exact same game that the previous studio were doing, they would have had to start completely from scratch.
Thus, when it was determined that the current work on MP4 would take longer than anticipated, and Retro's involvement became an imminent possibility, the delay of redoing the game from scratch with Retro was seen as preferable to continuing the already-delaying game with the other team. It may not even have had anything to do with how the game itself were turning out, but was the equivalent of calling up your preferred mechanic whose schedule suddenly cleared up instead of letting this other guy who keeps finding or creating new problems in your car keep working, who you were hiring just because he was the only other option, even if it costs you more and takes longer in the end because you know the job will be done better this way.
Even if the rumor about the previous setup incorporating a collaboration between teams scattered around the world is false, there can still be a point at which you evaluate the work of a team, and come to the conclusion that their progress is nowhere near as good as you expect it to be. Something might not work as well as you thought it would, and the projected release data is suddenly further than you hoped it'd be.
Which leads into Retro's involvement. It's entirely possible that Retro were busy with another project, and at some point in time, their work schedule freed up enough that they could take on the new game. And Retro are a mostly known quantity - to Nintendo, involving Retro in the project is a massive benefit, not just because they're known as the makers of the original Metroid Prime, but also because they're all around a good development team.
But, switching developers halfway into the project is a terrible idea, because as anyone who ever tried joining an ongoing GitHub project knows, someone else's code takes a long while to learn, and if you have your own ways of doing things then you may end up redoing them all over the codebase just to make everything familiar enough. Thus, it's almost certain that for a major developer switch, it's a far better option to completely scrap the codebase and start anew. It's possible to keep some things, and possibly most of the assets, but even if Retro were to step in and make the exact same game that the previous studio were doing, they would have had to start completely from scratch.
Thus, when it was determined that the current work on MP4 would take longer than anticipated, and Retro's involvement became an imminent possibility, the delay of redoing the game from scratch with Retro was seen as preferable to continuing the already-delaying game with the other team. It may not even have had anything to do with how the game itself were turning out, but was the equivalent of calling up your preferred mechanic whose schedule suddenly cleared up instead of letting this other guy who keeps finding or creating new problems in your car keep working, who you were hiring just because he was the only other option, even if it costs you more and takes longer in the end because you know the job will be done better this way.
MP4 is in pre-production, the other project is getting finished and will probably be announced and release pretty soon.
This happens ALL THE TIME, the bulk of the employees are finishing up on one project, and the lead people are already working in pre-production of the next one so that they don't have to pay a whole team to do nothing for months.
This doesn't tell us anything about Retro beyond the fact they are finished or almost finished with a game they are close to announcing and releasing. The extraordinary part of this is first, knowing about pre-production so soon and second, the way the project got into their hands.
Take your time Nintendo.
Was looking for this on the first page... why wasnt this the first response? Lmao
Metroid Prime Trilogy 2019
2d Metroid Collection early 2021 (including 3DS games)
Would be nice release schedule leading up to Prime 4 for me.
2d Metroid Collection early 2021 (including 3DS games)
Would be nice release schedule leading up to Prime 4 for me.
Whats with the weird schadenfreude? Do you enjoy watching a fanbase get their hopes crushed ?
You're supposed to ignore it. By replying, you let them win. It's like how ridley taunted samus in the manga, to get a rise our of her torment.
I guess youre right, but i dont understand the mindset of people who get actual joy from seeing people upset.
They probably have nothing else to do, so just let them that I guess.
When life gives you lemons, you go be a loser on a message board.
Sorry, I'm coming late to this.
I'll be a conspiracy theorist. I don't think anything has been done on this game and Nintendo was looking for a way to try to spin a massive delay message. Am I an idiot?
I'll be a conspiracy theorist. I don't think anything has been done on this game and Nintendo was looking for a way to try to spin a massive delay message. Am I an idiot?
Why are people assuming this? They would have said it in this video of all videos if this was the case. When you are straight up delivering bad news, you may as well rip off the bandaid. lol
This is wild though, unfortunate, but it happens; And Im glad they are being honest about it and just scrapping it. Don't put out dogshit, Metroid fans would never forgive you. Get it right, or don't bother.
Blizzard has cancelled games they've actually announced and shown trailers for, like Starcraft Ghost.
Sony reportedly cancelled Sony Santa Monica's big new next gen game earlier this generation after putting tens of millions of dollars into development.
EA has even put NBA Live on hold once upon a time when the quality got bad enough.
Everyone does it to various degrees, just depends how bad the product is relative to sunk costs and potential return.
Also this was contracted through Bandai Namco. I would be mildly shocked if Nintendo didn't have significant quality control and completion based compensation structures within the contract. They're losing a much needed core IP release from their calendar but in real dollars Bandai Namco are likely the ones taking the hit.
Well said. I think a lot people assume that pre-production involves EVERY member of staff at a company. Generally speaking, it probably invovles less than a tenth of the overall headcount. The majority of staff at Retro won't be actively working on Metroid for 3-6 months at the earliest.
This is nonsense and no money orientated company works that way.
If they would say the project can't be saves they would have cancelled it completly. They might like their fans but they would never waste money for them.
You need context.
Fable Legends costed over 75 million USD and Microsoft canned the game, there was no reason to start a new Fable from scratch dipping more money, Metroid Prime 4 has been in development for like 2 years? Nintendo of course wasted some million, but it's probably not a big sum of money and they can reboot the game with a new studio without losing too much.
We don't have news, but a lot of games are cancelled or being rebooted while in development, Andromeda is the primal example.
There were leaks out of Bandai Namco's Singapore studio that they were working on this prior to the announcement. It was definitely a real thing. But Bandai Namco and quality single palyer action adventure games comparable to the Metroid Prime IP aren't what I'd call synonymous.
I'd speculate that Nintendo felt like they basically just needed a workforce they could help guide to a quality product, a process they have seen a lot of success with in the recent past, and this time it just didn't workout.
It did with Bandai Namco before with Pokken Tournament, a solid game that really did straddle the line between Tekken and a Pokemon game.
I don't think Mario + Rabbids could be called anything short of an absolute success, despite coming from a Ubisoft team that didn't exactly have the resume you'd think would deliver a great Mario XCOM fusion title.
Nintendo even did this exact thing with Metroid: Samus Returns working with Mercury Steam well after the bloom was off that rose following their most recent lackluster Castlevania titles, but Nintendo's guidance helped produce arguably (maybe, I'd say definitely) the best game MS ever made.
Nintendo has succeeded here before, many times. Eventually it just doesn't pan out though. Sony greenlit new IPs from Naughty Dog, Sony Santa Monica, and Guerilla Games at the end of last generation or early into this one. The Last of Us and Horizon were huge. SSM's game didn't make it out the door, a non-trivial portion of the studio was laid off, and they rebuilt with Corey Barlog and returned to the God of War IP. Shit happens, I'm sure the money made from TLoU and Horizon more than recouped their losses, and that was an internal project where Sony took all the financial risk.
The new Retro has mostly "fresh blood" it is not the same studio of OG Metroid Prime series.
I don't know of any studio thats been this frank about development hell. At best they joke after the product ships, ala Diablo III, but THIS? Nah. Never seen this.
I like it though.... but looking at how the gaming community is taking it worries me. Because people aren't handling this transparency well at all. Its literally just people spinning up more speculation based on nothing. So far Ive already seen "this whole thing is a ruse, and MP4 was never in development" and "Nintendo just cant release games in a timely manner" as well as "Retros current game has been canceled and they are now working on MP4 because Starfox Grand Prix was a disaster"..... Its like Jesus Christ wtf...?
A list was posted on this forum back in May and referenced in this (admittedly very long) thread.
All the Senior/Lead positions at Retro nowadays
Prime Series Veterans
President
Michael Kelbaught - Prime 2
Game Director
Ryan Harris - Prime
Creative Director
Vince Joly - Prime 2
Audio Director
Scott Petterson - Prime 2
Lead Programmer
Aaron Walker - Prime 3
Art & Animation Manager
Will Bate - Metroid Prime 3
Lead Artist
Ryan Powell - Prime
Lead Effects Artist
Chuck Crist - Prime
Principal Animator
Dax Pallotta - Prime
Senior Enviromment Artist
Teague Schultz - Prime 2
Sean Horton - Prime 2
Senior Programmers
Jim Gage - Prime
Alexander Quinones - Prime
John Sheblak - Prime Trilogy
Design Supervisor
Bill Vanvervoot - Prime 3
Senior Designer
Russel O Henly - Prime 2
Senior Animator
Stephen Zapros - Prime
Operations Director
Kellie Prinz Johnson - Prime 2
Al Artus
Facilities Manager - Prime
Not Prime
Programming Director
Tim Little - DKCR
Lead Animator
Mookie Weisbrod - DKTF
Senior Environment Artist
Maruchy Fernandez
Senior Programmers
Jim Richmond
Gerorgia Nelson
Senior Technical Artist
Rob Kovach
Wonder how weird it must be to be one of these guys just doing his work, but having his name dropped in these crazy speculation threads? Any of these guys makes a move and the forums will light up.
It's like that guy who was a writer and cinematic designer that left / finished his contract at Retro. Folks got word of him leaving, threads popped up, and speculation was rampant.
This was pretty amazing to hear considering it's the sort of thing that would be leaked out in bits but never really confirmed till the game eventually showed its face again. It sucks at the same time, but at least they aren't hiding it.
If the leaks are correct I hope Metroid Prime trilogy does show its face soon, and I hope the SNES emulator hits too, I want to get my Metroid on.
If the leaks are correct I hope Metroid Prime trilogy does show its face soon, and I hope the SNES emulator hits too, I want to get my Metroid on.
Thanks for re-posting this. Always drives me batty when people keep parroting this nonsense about Retro not being the same studio anymore. Yes, a lot of people who only worked on Prime 1 have left, but most of the people who worked on Prime 2 & 3 are still there.
And really, Retro's output speaks for itself. They are the masters of level design and DKCR/DKCTF continue to showcase that. They're not Rare (who are definitely not the same developer they once were); Retro's track record is still impeccable.
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I'm completely okay with this. Nintendo strives for quality, and MP4 has to be a fucking beast when it comes out. Rebooting the entire development sucks, that means minimum 3 years before we see it. Retro studios taking over is a godsend though, the absolute best possibility for this game.
Pokemon Switch has to be huge, Animal crossing has to be huge, to make up for this though, and that kinda blows.
Pokemon Switch has to be huge, Animal crossing has to be huge, to make up for this though, and that kinda blows.
FF was Tanabe's baby through and through. All the bad decissions of that game come from him directly and Next level games were just doing grunt work.
When Next level games (and retro in older cases with Tanabe, and actually the majority of games released by studios working with Nintendo, were he is just a simple producer) are left with creative freedom you can see a bunch of interviews with the directors and leads of the games, with tanabe overseeing them. When Tanabe is the only one who talks, were he jas the main idea and then looks for a team to amke what he wants, like happened with FF by NLG, MPH by NTS and mp4 by namco singapour, were he is the mouthpiece of every article released of the gane, or cases were the press had to actually look for which team he was working for, because Tanabe never wants to say it, he is a producer acting as a director and he is demonstrating again and again thats bad news. See the diference also with Sakamoto doing the same with other M and team ninja, and actually leaving the director of Samus Returns talk on interviews with him this time. And Sakamoto is a thousand times better creative person than Tanabe.
So dont shit over NLG, they are an awesome studio that had the displeasure of working with Tanabe on a forced game with his shitty ideas (something that retro has talked about in some interviews in the past, i think it was the mp3 iwata asks were they say the have to somewhat play with some of Tanabe's absurd ideas, in fact Tanabe says that yep, he does that to see what sticks), instead of tanabe just acting as a producer and them doing all creative work as in the mario strikers games, punch-out!! Luigis mansion 2 and now 3.
The only thing that tanabe has going for him is that he actually owned the fault of him thinking FF was a good idea by making the infamous video explanation after the deserved uproar. But that also demonstrates he is not good with lead creative decissions now.
If sylux is nowhere to be seen or doesnt act as the main villain of the game in retro's version of MP4, you will see who actually got the complete creative reigns of the games, because from what Tanabe has said multiple times, is what he wanted MP4 heading to. And the less input he has over the games the best for all of us.
They're one of the most productive publishers (if not the most productive).
New IPs regularly appear (splatoon, Arms, sushi striker, etc).
You need to source some of this rant if you want it to be taken seriously. We know for a fact that prior to Luigi's mansion 2, NLG went to Nintendo do with a pitch for Metroid, that when they got the chance to later, they only ended up doing grunt work and had no input is unlikely at best.
It seems like they didn't really want to work on Tanabe's version of Prime 4. After two disastrous Metroid projects in a row (Federation Force and the Namco Prime 4), Tanabe's position is weak and Retro seem to have usurped him and taken control themselves. Of course he will still be involved but if NCL were that impressed with Retro's pitch they have to let them take the reigns.
Okay here's my theory about the "other project"
1) Before Tropical Freeze was announced rumors appeared on Retro losing many key developers while other developers from the original DKC Returns team leaving after the Wii U project (Tropical Freeze) with the studio facing a transitional period in the upcoming years, because not only they had to hire new people but also to teach them to think like Nintendo, to make games like Nintendo would.
https://www.gamespot.com/forums/sys...es-many-key-developers-more-after-w-29199174/
2) Retro started working on a new game in 2014 with Tanabe immediately after Tropical Freeze. Both Tanabe and Kelbaugh confirmed that
12/28/2014: "Producer Kensuke Tanabe confirmed that Retro is at work on a new game, and Kelbaugh added that it's been in development for a few months since Tropical Freeze was finished. Neither of them were willing to elaborate on what the project is, however."
3) Nintendo announced Federation Force at E3 2015, this is what Tanabe said a couple of months after:
8/5/2015 "The whole development has been done by Next Level Games. There was just one part — for the design for the mechs, Retro had the supervisory role for this game. I'm not quite sure about the stuff that Retro is working on at this time."
(which makes me believe that the new game started in 2014 was already cancelled)
4) Since then i think they had some rough transitional 2-3 years, with many developers leaving the studio (that's not a theory, that's a fact), only pitches to Nintendo but nothing concrete. By the end of 2016 they started hiring new developers:
They worked on Tropical Freeze port for the Switch, beyond that maybe nothing else concrete, or maybe there was something.
5) 1/25/2019 Takahashi announced Retro is starting now working on Metroid Prime 4 with producer Tanabe.
If there was really another project, development started in 2017 so, i don't think that game is complete now, or it was a very small game but we have never seen Retro working on smaller scale projects. Personally i'd focus more on Metroid Prime 4 and what this studio could make with that IP, rather than discussing an hypothetical other project we don't know if it really exists.
- Is it really shocking to realize Retro faced some transitional period after Tropical Freeze? I don't think so since it was the same before Metroid Prime was announced, and after the Trilogy came out and even after Returns.
- Should we be worried about Retro? No, all the games they have been able to make are all amazing, people were skeptical about Tropical Freeze because key developers like Bryan Walker left the company and the game came out great anyway.
Yeah, you' re right and that wasn't what I meant. What I quoted sounded to me like they gave Retro the game because the fans would be otherwise sad if they had to cancel the game and that was nonsense for me. :)
Or maybe their previous game is done and waiting for an adequate time slot. In any case, what this DOESN'T mean is that Retro just cancelled a game after five years.
Think whatever you want mate, for me its obvious what has been happening with Tanabe.
You want sources? try to look for interviews and Iwata asks of NLG other games, you will see Bryce Holliday and other NLG employees talking in a bunch of them. Same with Retro's and Monster Games respective games were he was producer.
Now look at Federation Force, tell me if you see anyone other than Tanabe adressing the game and why he thinks the choices were good. Now go and do the same for MP4, were he never revealed the team he was working for but still was the mouthpiece and how much he wanted the story be Samus and Sylux. Look for who had the main idea of MPH and who talks a lot about the title even if he was only a producer, like many other games at Nintendo were he never talks about them, as NTS were the ones making the game. How curious, every modern game with his complete creative input and he acts as the game's mouthpiece is mediocre, terrible or cancelled.
Its not even hidden, a simple google search will find all this.
Oh but NLG is at fault because they released 4 great games and a shitty one were they never even talked about it. Yeah, im sure it was NLG fault. Probably also their fault that Bandai Namco Singapour also failed to deliver something thats was falling apart from every seam to the point of cancellation, sure sure.
My rant at least has foundation of interviews and game reception, yours only uses some old NLG concept art as the base for thinking it was NLG who had the fault.
yep, basically this.
hahah, ok, no worries :P
I kind of want to see what Sakamoto could achieve with Retro Studios. I feel like this would have been the best opportunity to assign him to the job. He's probably busy working on another game though.
I'm still not too pessimistic about this endeavour -
As I see it, there is no reason not to "salvage" and re-use anything appropriate from the previous project, given the money invested, even when it means re-working the assets to whatever degree.
They are obviously just being carefully pessimistic, when saying "it will be a long road ahead" - I'm sure they can put out some "surprise teaser" before the year's end.
As I see it, there is no reason not to "salvage" and re-use anything appropriate from the previous project, given the money invested, even when it means re-working the assets to whatever degree.
They are obviously just being carefully pessimistic, when saying "it will be a long road ahead" - I'm sure they can put out some "surprise teaser" before the year's end.
