Nintendo's Renaissance

GunFlame · Oct 31, 2017

On thing Nintendo have now, is they're more openly starting to embrace multiple revenue streams. Rather than standard merchandise, and software and hardware sales. They're open to licensing their IP, releasing on mobile, have the theme park coming, and other products like amiibo and expanded merchandise.

Also, Nintendo are huge. Although they had weakened returns with the Wii U, they're still massive. They have resource, the 3DS, software and other non-WiiU sales would have been strong, too.

Sometimes, Nintendo seemed to get spoken about like they're some scrappy start-up. But they're a behemoth in this industry.

Sauce Marlow · Oct 31, 2017

I don't know, I feel like this "renaissance" is way overblown, considering they never stopped making amazing games. True, they started strong with the Switch, but the Wii sold just as strong and we know how that turned out. Yes, they came out the gates with Breath of The Wild, Super Mario Odyssey and Xenoblade coming up, but I don't see much of interest coming on the horizon, at least for me. Pokemon on Switch and Metroid Prime 4 are really the only things we know about that are of real importance, and neither of those is coming before 2019. It's going to be a long time before we see Mario and Zelda again and almost as long until we see a proper new Mario Kart and Smash Bros too.

From a quick search the only games of any note slated to come out in 2018 are Kirby Star Allies, Yoshi, Fire Emblem and Project Octopath Traveller. Unless a few games are announced at the start of next year, I find it hard to see how a majority of Switch owners are going to be satisfied with 2018, particularly coming off the back of 2017.

I'm predicting now that people will look back in December of 2018 and think, "Wow, this wasn't a great year on the Switch."

Phendrift · Oct 31, 2017

I think it can mainly be called a renaissance because the Switch as a console is actually an attractive proposition, not just valuable because it's the key to playing Nintendo software. People have a reason to purchase 3rd party games on the Switch instead of the PS4, while they really didn't have a reason to buy them on Wii U over PS4.

That and they released it with the best possible game to show it's concept and vision off - a magnificent, huge open world console game that can be played on that tiny little tablet.

The Switch and BotW were both insanely good products that complemented eachother beautifully.

It's not like Nintendo ever stopped making great games.

Wamb0wneD · Oct 31, 2017

LightEntite said:
Oh....wow. I'm willing to bet that if Gravity Rush 2 was a 2nd Party Switch exclusive, you'd be praising it to high hell and back right now.

See, this shit here is why I won't even try to argue with you about anything. I own a PS4, so I have no freaking clue what you're talking about, but I'm sure you felt on the right side of the everlasting console warz when you typed that. Maybe ask yourself why you have to step that low as soon your viewpoint gets questioned.

DeuceGamer · Oct 31, 2017

Sauce Marlow said:
I don't know, I feel like this "renaissance" is way overblown, considering they never stopped making amazing games. True, they started strong with the Switch, but the Wii sold just as strong and we know how that turned out. Yes, they came out the gates with Breath of The Wild, Super Mario Odyssey and Xenoblade coming up, but I don't see much of interest coming on the horizon, at least for me. Pokemon on Switch and Metroid Prime 4 are really the only things we know about that are of real importance, and neither of those is coming before 2019. It's going to be a long time before we see Mario and Zelda again and almost as long until we see a proper new Mario Kart and Smash Bros too.

From a quick search the only games of any note slated to come out in 2018 are Kirby Star Allies, Yoshi, Fire Emblem and Project Octopath Traveller. Unless a few games are announced at the start of next year, I find it hard to see how a majority of Switch owners are going to be satisfied with 2018, particularly coming off the back of 2017.

I'm predicting now that people will look back in December of 2018 and think, "Wow, this wasn't a great year on the Switch."

We don't know what's coming in 2018. I think it's best to wait until they actually announce their lineup before judging said lineup.

chrisPjelly · Oct 31, 2017

I really appreciate their strides to create new IPs and be more ambitious with their flagship titles again, definitely. Still a bit lukewarm about the hardware and ESPECIALLY their shittty online that you'll eventually have to pay for. I'm happy that Nintendo is seen more positively again, but I worry that this will make them complacent in other areas.

Baleoce · Oct 31, 2017

I wonder where things go after switch. Nintendo being a consistent innovator. But then I guess that's the whole point. If any of us had that answer, we'd be working for them. It does feel like a big of a renaissance at the moment though, for sure.

Darmik · Oct 31, 2017

I wish I could be a fly on the wall during the Nintendo meetings in 2013 after the Wii U sales results were coming in. I think that was the year a lot of them buckled down and started planning ahead. I think Iwata was involved in a lot of the stuff that came out in the last couple of years. It just took time since they were stuck with the Wii U.

You could see Nintendo pivoting gradually during the following years. Stuff like those quirky E3 Directs, Splatoon and Super Mario Maker show a lot of unique enthusiasm and them embracing their fans and roots. On the business side you had the mobile deal and Amiibos.

When it came to the general public I could feel the tide starting to turn last year. Pokémon Go was the ultimate catalyst. That game was the most massive thing I had seen in a long time. The NES Classic was not long after (which they did screw up a bit). The Switch reveal was overall positive too and people understood the hook immediately. Even I underestimated how appealing that hook was going to be for people.

But now 2017 has been the year where what they've been building up to for the last few years has finally paid off. It's great to see. Reminds me a lot of the build up Sony was doing leading up to the PS4 launch.

LightEntite · Oct 31, 2017

Wamb0wneD said:
See, this shit here is why I won't even try to argue with you about anything. I own a PS4, so I have no freaking clue what you're talking about, but I'm sure you felt on the right side of the everlasting console warz when you typed that. Maybe ask yourself why you have to step that low as soon your viewpoint gets questioned.

Well i admittedly judged your viewpoint the moment you mentioned waypoints and Zelda (Nintendo's) lack thereof. I don't know where such a statement would come from, especially considering Nintendo hasn't designed any games where waypoints would even be considered appropriate until relatively recently. But such simple observations usually tend to elicit "console warz" statements from people for whatever reason, I gave up trying to figure it out.

I don't operate well in these discussions because of the things people say, and your post had way too many common flags. So a more measured response would be:

Nintendo absolutely and very obviously took inspiration from at least one of those games, calling Horizon's world "non-interactive" sounds overly reductive and it most certainly did more right than "visuals and the robo dinosaurs". And I don't see how GR2's reception (or BotW's reception in comparison for that matter) has absolutely anything to do with what I was getting at.

Wamb0wneD · Oct 31, 2017

LightEntite said:
Well i admittedly judged your viewpoint the moment you mentioned waypoints and Zelda (Nintendo's) lack thereof. I don't know where such a statement would come from, especially considering Nintendo hasn't designed any games where waypoints would even be considered appropriate until relatively recently. But such simple observations usually tend to elicit "console warz" statements from people for whatever reason, I gave up trying to figure it out.

I don't operate well in these discussions because of the things people say, and your post had way too many common flags. So a more measured response would be:

Nintendo absolutely and very obviously took inspiration from at least one of those games, calling Horizon's world "non-interactive" sounds overly reductive and it most certainly did more right than "visuals and the robo dinosaurs". And I don't see how GR2's reception (or BotW's reception in comparison for that matter) has absolutely anything to do with what I was getting at.

They have made exactly one game so far where waypoints would be appropriate, and went out of their way to not make them part of the game, designing the map in a way it's always visible where you are and where the next landmark is. You have what, 4 waypoints in the entire game, and even then they don't show up on the actual screen, only on the map.

I don't have the slightest clue how you can say "at least" when Horizon came out days before Zelda and GR2 two months. Do you think they crammed elements of those games in Zelda in the last days before it got shipped? This doesn't make sense in the slightest.

Horizon did the visuals, the combat including fighting cool creatures and the story right. It's a great game, but you do jack shit with the world itself compared to Zelda and the waypoints with distance indicators are grating as fuck but also nessecary because otherwise you would get lost. The games are inherently different in their focus.

It's not really about reception, but about the notion that GR2 had any influence on Nintendo's design decisions. It's laughable.

Sauce Marlow · Oct 31, 2017

DeuceGamer said:
We don't know what's coming in 2018. I think it's best to wait until they actually announce their lineup before judging said lineup.

It's hard not to judge when we're two months away from 2018. Unless there's a January Direct that announces a bunch of stuff, I find it hard to believe there will be any more major exclusive releases on Switch in 2018 that aren't straight-up ports of Wii U games.

LightEntite · Oct 31, 2017

Wamb0wneD said:
They have made exactly one game so far where waypoints would be appropriate, and went out of their way to not make them part of the game, designing the map in a way it's always visible where you are and where the next landmark is. You have what, 4 waypoints in the entire game, and even then they don't show up on the actual screen, only on the map.

I don't have the slightest clue how you can say "at least" when Horizon came out days before Zelda and GR2 two months. Do you think they crammed elements of those games in Zelda in the last days before it got shipped? This doesn't make sense in the slightest.

Horizon did the visuals, the combat including fighting cool creatures and the story right. It's a great game, but you do jack shit with the world itself compared to Zelda and the waypoints with distance indicators are grating as fuck but also nessecary because otherwise you would get lost. The games are inherently different in their focus.

It's not really about reception, but about the notion that GR2 had any influence on Nintendo's design decisions. It's laughable.

Nobody said anything about GR2 influencing Zelda

Nobody even said anything about Horizon influencing Zelda.

What i said is that a modern adventure game like Zelda modeled after Skyward Sword is not going to look impressive in the light of other open world games with extremely detailed environments or massive, unhindered exploration, and that other games in the open world genre obviously influenced BotW. How couldn't they? The genre has been evolving for ages now.

And finally....I personally don't (and NEVER have) seen the point in comparing a game like Horizon to a game like BotW anyway. Or Witcher 3 to Zelda, or anything else that people love comparing to Zelda but never to anything else....

They are not similar titles, they do not have similar content, they do not aim for the same experience, and as far as technology goes they are in two completely different leagues from one another. The only similarities are that they're open world, in which case YES they are all evolving from the same predecessors, something that Zelda is not immune from just because Nintendo has a reputation for being innovative.

As far as Zelda goes, my only point is that Nintendo didn't pull that game's design out of a god damn vacuum. That's it.

DeuceGamer · Oct 31, 2017

Sauce Marlow said:
It's hard not to judge when we're two months away from 2018. Unless there's a January Direct that announces a bunch of stuff, I find it hard to believe there will be any more major exclusive releases on Switch in 2018 that aren't straight-up ports of Wii U games.

They haven't announced any release dates for 2018, but we know titles will release in 2018. Why is it so hard to believe there will be new, unannounced titles?

Keep in mind ARMS, Xenoblade 2, Splatoon 2, Mario Odyssey, Mario Rabbids, Doom, Skyrim, etc... we're all announced and will release in the same calendar year. Nintendo routinely show games only a few months before release. No reason we shouldn't expect a few more announcements in 2018.

Remapped88 · Oct 31, 2017

After BotW and Mario, I really wanna see how Fire Emblem and Pokemon will turn out since they we're mainly handheld games. Also, I love their smaller games on the 3DS games like Miitopia, Sakura Samurai, Dillion, etc and hope they can find a place on the Switch also.

Sauce Marlow · Oct 31, 2017

DeuceGamer said:
They haven't announced any release dates for 2018, but we know titles will release in 2018. Why is it so hard to believe there will be new, unannounced titles?

Keep in mind ARMS, Xenoblade 2, Splatoon 2, Mario Odyssey, Mario Rabbids, Doom, Skyrim, etc... we're all announced and will release in the same calendar year. Nintendo routinely show games only a few months before release. No reason we shouldn't expect a few more announcements in 2018.

I'm willing and hoping to be proved wrong on this, but I just get the feeling they're going to drop the ball. Being burned on the Wii and WiiU are probably what's causing this scepticism.

GuitarGuruu · Oct 31, 2017

Sauce Marlow said:
It's hard not to judge when we're two months away from 2018. Unless there's a January Direct that announces a bunch of stuff, I find it hard to believe there will be any more major exclusive releases on Switch in 2018 that aren't straight-up ports of Wii U games.

Why would they reveal their hand before consumers have a chance to get a taste of whats coming this Holiday season? They can easily have a direct January to reveal release dates for Kirby, Yoshi, and even maybe Fire Emblem. I have no doubt they have more to announce beyond ports like you said.

Sauce Marlow · Oct 31, 2017

GuitarGuruu said:
Why would they reveal their hand before consumers have a chance to get a taste of whats coming this Holiday season? They can easily have a direct January to reveal release dates for Kirby, Yoshi, and even maybe Fire Emblem. I have no doubt they have more to announce beyond ports like you said.

Why wouldn't they? Just because they have games coming out this year doesn't mean they shouldn't be looking beyond. I have no doubt there are a bunch of people holding off on the Switch because they were sucked in by the Wii/WiiU and ended up not having a library they were happy with. A guarantee from Nintendo that this thing is going to be receiving a non-stop stream of games could go a very long way with lapsed fans.

Xiaomi · Nov 1, 2017

The Renaissance started back during the last years of the Wii U. Unfortunately nothing could save that combo disaster of the console's name and its marketing campaign.

azeke · Nov 1, 2017

There is no such thing as "Nintendo's Renaissance". Switch's most lauded games are standing on top of the "failure" that was Wii U:

Breath of the Wild is a Wii U game, it was built as such and was only ported to Switch in the last year of production.

So is Splatoon of which Splatoon 2 is a retread of.

So is Mario Maker, that doesn't even have an analogue on Switch.

Nintendo's software quality always stays more or less the same (dependably great and constantly innovative) and is independent of people's narratives about one console's commercial success .

You just weren't paying attention while Nintendo kept chugging along.

kodax_shc · Nov 1, 2017

Kyzer said:
I hope Game Freak applies a new approach, as a big Pokemon fan I feel like it's been long enough that even they know it's time

Me too. Id rather the game come out in late 2019 if it means big things for the game. This is gamefreak though. Always two steps forward one step back.

MidiPour · Nov 1, 2017

kodax_shc said:
Me too. Id rather the game come out in late 2019 if it means big things for the game. This is gamefreak though. Always two steps forward one step back.

Let's face it, it's a quarter of an inch baby steps forward for Gamefreak.

TheMisterManGuy · Nov 1, 2017

AndrewGPK said:
Switch I think really is the culmination and full realization of a lot of half-baked ideas from the Wii and WiiU - when I'm playing Odyssey on split Joy Cons and then switch over to BOTW on handheld or Splatoon 2 with the pro controller, the versatility of the console itself feels really amazing. I liked the originality and fun of the Wii and motion controls, but N became obsessed with games at times that were too simplistic and motion control gimmicks. I liked the off-screen play of WiiU and the games line-up to me was solid, but I was frustrated that I couldn't take the off-screen play even across the house.

Nintendo is back to making complex games, with motion controls that are mostly complimentary and enhancing, and you can take them anywhere. Lots of failures and partial successes led to the Switch.

Now denying Nintendo stepped up it's first party game with the Switch. But, I find the people who think BotW and Mario Odyssey are "Complex" to be a bit delusional. BotW and Mario Odyssey, are ambitious, but they're no more complex than any other Nintendo game. Nintendo games were never "complex" they were almost always very simple games that anyone can pick up and play. And the Switch Mario and Zelda's are no exception. Sure, these two games are ambitious. But ambition =/= complexity.

Also, you can bet that Nintendo's going to make a lot more games that exploit the Switch's gimmicks, that's just who they are as a company. Thing is, The Switch is a very versatile console, so developers don't have to worry about limited button layouts or whatnot.

MisterGrey3000 · Nov 1, 2017

NinjaCoachZ said:
I would argue that MK8, Splatoon, and Mario Maker have helped build up to this point. All those games I think had the real creative spark you can see really let loose on BOTW, Odyssey, etc. That plus feedback from games like 3D World, Skyward Sword, and here we are.

???
Is there, like, any reason to assume that Odyssey was born out of enthusiast feedback of 3D World?
Did I miss a few interviews?
Like, every time Koizumi and the Mario team talk about Odyssey's creation they're just like "We just wanted to do a 64 style one this time, and bring back and revitalize a style that we haven't touched in 15 years."
Where as the Zelda team has repeatedly said stuff like "Yeah we couldn't connect all the areas together in Skyward Sword due to the Wii's numerous limitations so we connected them here in this big open world!", "Yeah...some people were bummed out with the linearity in Skyward Sword so this one is very open ended!", and "Yeah...people missed riding the horse Skyward Sword so we added in new horse mechanics!" in regards to BotW.

AndrewGPK · Nov 1, 2017

TheMisterManGuy said:
Now denying Nintendo stepped up it's first party game with the Switch. But, I find the people who think BotW and Mario Odyssey are "Complex" to be a bit delusional. BotW and Mario Odyssey, are ambitious, but they're no more complex than any other Nintendo game. Nintendo games were never "complex" they were almost always very simple games that anyone can pick up and play. And the Switch Mario and Zelda's are no exception. Sure, these two games are ambitious. But ambition =/= complexity.

Also, you can bet that Nintendo's going to make a lot more games that exploit the Switch's gimmicks, that's just who they are as a company. Thing is, The Switch is a very versatile console, so developers don't have to worry about limited button layouts or whatnot.

Well, I can agree with you for the most part, perhaps complex isn't the right word. All Nintendo games are generally built with a core gameplay mechanic/idea that is usually pretty basic and the game is built around that. As with BOTW's concept originally being created using a version of the NES Zelda.

The primary thing that makes the Switch a success is that it's core gimmick is not gimmicky at all. The ability to switch between a console and handheld is really meaningful and I think will become a standard for at least one or more of the platforms in coming generations. I think companies I worked for started switching from desktops to laptops with a docking station like 12 years ago - its the most efficient way to work. And its also the most efficient way to play - being able to carry around Triple AAA titles on the go is a game changer for the industry IMO. In fact, I think Microsoft is going to need to consider it next generation, given that they aren't competing as well with exclusive games like they used to and will never have great Japanese developer support. That would be a way to differentiate themselves from Sony in a meaningful way on all the big 3rd party games they share.

Lots of Switch owners are willing to skip technically superior versions of games on other platforms just to have portability.

Raijinto · Nov 1, 2017

Sauce Marlow said:
Why wouldn't they? Just because they have games coming out this year doesn't mean they shouldn't be looking beyond. I have no doubt there are a bunch of people holding off on the Switch because they were sucked in by the Wii/WiiU and ended up not having a library they were happy with. A guarantee from Nintendo that this thing is going to be receiving a non-stop stream of games could go a very long way with lapsed fans.

You're being ridiculous. So Nintendo's only games in a 12 month period coming off one of their best years ever will be Yoshi, Kirby and Fire Emblem.

There's scepticism and remaining cautious after being 'burned' but then there is also being ridiculous.

If you genuinely believe what you're typing here you're being ridiculous. Borderline "that Mario game was a tech demo/auto-runner" ridiculous.

Servbot24 · Nov 1, 2017

A "Renaissance" would mean a sustained period of excellence. So far we have a few great games in a year. I need to see more before I consider it more than a coincidentally great year.

MP! · Nov 1, 2017

I would like to submit that while I'm sure Nintendo has made some changes ... the Biggest change is that of the public's general opinion of them as a company... so it's not that Nintendo has changed a ton... but that the public perception of them has changed. To me their software output has almost always been top notch, wii U included.

apozem · Nov 1, 2017

Nintex said:
There's this weird thing that 'anyone' could've made the Switch. Any tablet maker could've done what market analysts told them to do for the past 4 years. Add buttons and core games to your smartphones and tablets.

The only reason the Switch exists is because:
- The Wii U bombed, leading to Nintendo re-examining their entire handheld/console strategy that the company ran on for 20 years including hardware vendors
- Mobile technology has gotten to a point that it can match HD consoles and engines are build to scale and adapt
- Nvidia was stuck with a truckload of Tegra's and they had no clients to buy them

Had Apple or Samsung introduced a coherent gaming strategy 2 years ago we'd be playing DOOM on our iPads and Galaxy tabs instead.
None dared to make the plunge and Nintendo stepped into the void. Microsoft stuck with some dumb companion tablet streaming/app stuff and Sony lost hope in the portable business when the Vita tanked.

I wonder if the Xbox Surface rumors from before the Xbox One announcement were actually the real deal and Microsoft was contemplating releasing such a device.

I agree with a lot of this. Kind of surprising it took this long, but not shocking it was Nintendo that did it. They have the experience manufacturing consoles and the first-party library that ensures someone will buy.

Also I would argue Apple (and Google, since they own the other big app store) does have a coherent gaming strategy. That strategy is less build a console and more put a smartphone in the pocket of literally everyone so the sheer size of their audience attracts game devs. Games are some of the only apps people still regularly download, so they do care.

Sauce Marlow · Nov 1, 2017

Raijinto said:
You're being ridiculous. So Nintendo's only games in a 12 month period coming off one of their best years ever will be Yoshi, Kirby and Fire Emblem.

There's scepticism and remaining cautious after being 'burned' but then there is also being ridiculous.

If you genuinely believe what you're typing here you're being ridiculous. Borderline "that Mario game was a tech demo/auto-runner" ridiculous.

Is it really so hard for you to wrap your head around the idea that Nintendo possibly blew their load super early to have a successful launch year (can't fault them for that) and are going to have a slight drought in the aftermath? Mario, Zelda, Splatoon 2, ARMS and Xenoblade have already come out and Metroid and Pokemon are 2019 at best. Outside of Kirby, Yoshi, Fire Emblem and Octopath what else could you see them dropping in 2018, outside of Retro announcing their game? Like I've said, I'm willing and hoping to be proved wrong.

Raijinto · Nov 1, 2017

Sauce Marlow said:
Is it really so hard for you to wrap your head around the idea that Nintendo possibly blew their load super early to have a successful launch year (can't fault them for that) and are going to have a slight drought in the aftermath? Mario, Zelda, Splatoon 2, ARMS and Xenoblade have already come out and Metroid and Pokemon are 2019 at best. Outside of Kirby, Yoshi, Fire Emblem and Octopath what else could you see them dropping in 2018, outside of Retro announcing their game? Like I've said, I'm willing and hoping to be proved wrong.

It is very hard in fact for me to believe that Nintendo will release a grand total of 3 games and announcing one more in an entire year.

It is a laughable supposition.

NinjaCoachZ · Nov 1, 2017

MisterGrey3000 said:
???
Is there, like, any reason to assume that Odyssey was born out of enthusiast feedback of 3D World?
Did I miss a few interviews?
Like, every time Koizumi and the Mario team talk about Odyssey's creation they're just like "We just wanted to do a 64 style one this time, and bring back and revitalize a style that we haven't touched in 15 years."
Where as the Zelda team has repeatedly said stuff like "Yeah we couldn't connect all the areas together in Skyward Sword due to the Wii's numerous limitations so we connected them here in this big open world!", "Yeah...some people were bummed out with the linearity in Skyward Sword so this one is very open ended!", and "Yeah...people missed riding the horse Skyward Sword so we added in new horse mechanics!" in regards to BotW.

I didn't say that was the only thing that happened or the only reason why Odyssey is the way it is but it's probably not unthinkable that the devs looked at and evaluated both praise and critiques of the latest 3D Mario games and at least took them into consideration. Maybe it's coincidence that it ended up this way but people definitely started being very vocal about the desire for a less linear 3D game after 3D World was announced and the next thing we got was a less linear 3D game that maintained the creativity and spark 3D World and Galaxy 1/2 had. All I was saying!

?oe?oe · Nov 1, 2017

I guess Nintendo is doomed again.

Timbuktu · Nov 1, 2017

As other have said, Nintendo's games themselves are reliably good. They don't go through the sustained periods of ups and downs in quality like Disney Animation has, so Renaissance might not be the right term. I guess their core staff and talent are actually relatively stable in comparison. They are also forced to take pretty big risks in their business strategy, but at least they know well enough to be able to endure through lows and always survived.

Like a lot of people, I'm just getting a switch this holiday season so I'm ok if their is a bit of a drought in 2018.

Digital Dinosaur · Nov 1, 2017

The irony in the Switch is how the whole thing is predicated on a single concept introduced by the Wii U: start playing a game on the TV, pull the device out of a dock and keep playing, then come back again. Tellingly that feature - off-screen play - was the one thing many people consistently praised about the Wii U. Nintendo evidently noticed that.

In this sense, the Switch very well might not have existed and Nintendo wouldn't be benefiting now if they had not experimented with Wii U. It is a reason why the Wii U era of shitposting was so tiring - the constant "fire Iwata! Who could allow a failure to ever happen!" was ridiculous. Every company has failures. The important thing is what they do next.

Cranston · Nov 1, 2017

I don't think they ever went away. The Wii U was their only genuine failure, but only in terms of hardware.

Nintendo are and always have been the greatest game developer around and anything that comes out of Tokyo EAD is guaranteed God tier.

Deleted member 6730 · Nov 1, 2017

Lewpy said:
Give me an example of a Switch title that wasn't a port, or originally being developed for the Wii U. I would say considering how quickly Odyssey saw the light of day, it was more than likely originally a Wii U swan song, than it was an original Switch title.

Why exactly does that matter? Breath of the Wild is considered more of a Switch game than a Wii U game to many people and there's no proof Odyssey was supposed to be a Wii U title at all.

Deleted member 1413 · Nov 1, 2017

It's nice that they've changed things around to find both critical and commercial success for their two biggest Core franchises.

I'm hoping it's a sign of things to come. Nintendo recently restructured their main game studios and we're seeing the results now. Koizumi at the helm should have great results as well.
It's otetty exciting.

Something I've come to appreciate is Nintendo creating so many new characters.
The inklings, the great ARMS cast, and even the new characters in Odyssey feel really fresh.

MisterGrey3000 · Nov 1, 2017

NinjaCoachZ said:
I didn't say that was the only thing that happened or the only reason why Odyssey is the way it is but it's probably not unthinkable that the devs looked at and evaluated both praise and critiques of the latest 3D Mario games and at least took them into consideration. Maybe it's coincidence that it ended up this way but people definitely started being very vocal about the desire for a less linear 3D game after 3D World was announced and the next thing we got was a less linear 3D game that maintained the creativity and spark 3D World and Galaxy 1/2 had. All I was saying!

I don't know, I don't feel like it was a coincidence at all,
Now was the "right time and place" to make something like Super Mario Odyssey, open world games are HUGE right now and they already made 4 big "AAA" linear 3D Mario platformers that were all great successes (both financially and critically) in their own right- it was about time to switch things up (no pun intended).
Plus they've got a (relatively) powerful HD system where they can create a big, beautiful seamless open ended games with little to no hiccups.
I don't believe for a second though that Odyssey was some sort of response to Super Mario 3D World (a game that sold 4 million+ units on the ridiculously unappealing 13 million selling WiiU, and holds a 90+ on metacritic with critical acclaim) in the same way that BotW clearly is, and that's mostly because the devs haven't even alluded to the idea AFAIK.
Unlike the Zelda team, who was saying that BotW was basically a response to (enthusiast) criticism lobbed at Skyward Sword since 2016.

lowlifelenny · Nov 1, 2017

Renaissance is a word I'd hesitate to use. Their software has been exemplary for two generations running, and as has already been mentioned (and pointed out by Nintendo themselves), the Switch is essentially an amalgamation of the best and defining elements of past hardware.

There's definitely a sense of switching gears and thinking outside the box which probably goes back a few years, but I don't think the company's approach, output, or fortunes have drastically changed. The Switch represents (aside from the failure of the Wii U) business as usual- great games and great hardware.

Phendrift · Nov 1, 2017

Sauce Marlow said:
It's hard not to judge when we're two months away from 2018. Unless there's a January Direct that announces a bunch of stuff, I find it hard to believe there will be any more major exclusive releases on Switch in 2018 that aren't straight-up ports of Wii U games.

There will absolutely be a January direct announcing a bunch of stuff.

There was one this year that announced Odyssey, Xenoblade 2, MK8D and ARMS. Mario + Rabbids didn't get announced until E3 for fucks sake and came out two or three months after.

Nintendo has been holding their cards close to their chest. It's very safe to say there are quite a few 2018 games we don't know about.

Phendrift · Nov 1, 2017

MisterGrey3000 said:
I don't know, I don't feel like it was a coincidence at all,
Now was the "right time and place" to make something like Super Mario Odyssey, open world games are HUGE right now and they already made 4 big "AAA" linear 3D Mario platformers that were all great successes (both financially and critically) in their own right- it was about time to switch things up (no pun intended).
Plus they've got a (relatively) powerful HD system where they can create a big, beautiful seamless open ended games with little to no hiccups.
I don't believe for a second though that Odyssey was some sort of response to Super Mario 3D World (a game that sold 4 million+ units on the ridiculously unappealing 13 million selling WiiU, and holds a 90+ on metacritic with critical acclaim) in the same way that BotW clearly is, and that's mostly because the devs haven't even alluded to the idea AFAIK.
Unlike the Zelda team, who was saying that BotW was basically a response to (enthusiast) criticism lobbed at Skyward Sword since 2016.

I mean, it very well could be. Skyward Sword has the same Metacritic score as 3D World. Both scored well, but less than their predecessors.

I remember the reaction to 3D World's reveal at E3 2013 being pretty mixed to negative. There's no way Nintendo didn't pick up on some of that.

MisterGrey3000 · Nov 1, 2017

Phendrift said:
I mean, it very well could be. Skyward Sword has the same Metacritic score as 3D World. Both scored well, but less than their predecessors.

I remember the reaction to 3D World's reveal at E3 2013 being pretty mixed to negative. There's no way Nintendo didn't pick up on some of that.

Eeeh.
That was a negative reaction to a really mediocre trailer on a laggy live stream that made the game almost look like a glorified 3DS port in a time when Nintendo was floundering out of the gate with the WiiU and looked really out of touch (people were saying Nintendo wasn't even at E3, there was a lot of negativity surrounding the company at that time).
You really gotta think about what was going on at the time.
I don't know if Nintendo/EPD took anything from that other than "yeah we put out a bad trailer and we need to do better with our digital event next year...", I mean everybody was pretty god damned hyped when that kick ass October trailer came out for 3D World back in 2013.
People weren't negative about 3D World all the way up until release.
I don't feel like it's likely that that specific goof up in 2013 had anything to do with Odyssey's shift in style.

I mean I don't know, the game definitely has a few detractors who think it isn't "epic" or "ambitious" enough, but AFAICT 3D World seems to have a pretty dang positive reputation among most Mario fans and the general enthusiast audience.
Unlike say Sunshine which seems to garner a love it or hate it "mixed" response in enthusiast spaces like resetera despite being critically acclaimed.

Like I'm not saying it's impossible that criticism towards 3D World and even the Galaxy games influence Odyssey's direction...but seeing as they (the Mario EPD team) haven't said anything about that and the Zelda team has been very candid about BotW being a sort of response to Skyward Sword, I just think it's unlikely that it was a big influence for the change in direction.

Jaded Alyx · Nov 1, 2017

Sauce Marlow said:
Unless there's a January Direct that announces a bunch of stuff,

That's what tends to happen.

Sauce Marlow · Nov 1, 2017

Jaded Alyx said:
That's what tends to happen.

There tends to be a January Direct, it remains to be seen what of note they'll announce during it.

Chumes · Nov 1, 2017

Definitely a result of new blood coming into their own at Nintendo. Splatoon and Mario Maker were BOTH made by younger devs.

Neoleo2143 · Nov 1, 2017

As far as I see, it's really just a continuation of the efforts and fruits developed during the Wii U and 3DS, only more noticeable with the success of the Switch Hardware.

Lewpy · Nov 2, 2017

Spyder_Monkey said:
Why exactly does that matter? Breath of the Wild is considered more of a Switch game than a Wii U game to many people and there's no proof Odyssey was supposed to be a Wii U title at all.

I think if you'd have read my post then you may understand why I felt it matters. Regardless of whether 'people' consider BOTW a Switch title, it isn't... It was a port from the Wii U. As for Odyssey, granted no one has come out and explicitly said it wasn't originally a Wii U title, however, common sense suggests that Nintendo of all companies didn't turn around a polished mainline, flagship Mario title in such a short period of time.

Which is my argument as to why the Switch is making its success from the demise of the Wii U. This brings me back to why I even mentioned it in light of the OP to begin with; this 'renaissance' isn't recent, it's only now people are noticing it.

Nintendo's Renaissance

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