Nintendo's social conservatism & their apolitical veneer of 'fun' are such BS

[Lime]

The "Do people ever call Nintendo "kiddy" anymore?" thread made me think of the ways that Nintendo brands their corporate brand for decades with "family-friendly entertainment" that never tries to rock the boat or offend anyone (read: certain type of consumers). But in fact, this veneer of 'comfortable entertainment for all ages' is often used to deflect criticisms of the very conservative politics they put in their games. This has been reiterated over and over again with their incredibly dumb excuse of "not making any political statements" and that Nintendo "just want to have fun". Just think of the excuse to exclude non-hetero relationships in Tomodachi Life in 2014 with their shitty excuse of saying that they want to focus on 'fun' in their games and not have any politics. Instead of understanding and taking the feedback into account, their corporate branding strategy basically tells us that their version of 'fun' does not include other non-straight forms of relationships, as Dr. Todd Harper wrote back then:

Both Nintendo and Pardo rhetorically position "fun" and "entertainment" and "gameplay" as inherently opposed to "socially responsible/progressive. [...] "It's very much disheartening to hear a company say they 'value fun' as an excuse for excluding gay relationships," Gaymer X president Toni Rocca said. For Rocca, using the primacy of fun as a logic for cutting diverse content is basically a cop out. "That's just valuing straight relationships, or at best saying that fun is exclusive to them," she explained"

Click to shrink...

And I was unfortunately saddened to see that as recently as this June in 2017 before E3, the PR mouthpiece Reggie Fils-Aime came out and continued this false and harmful dichotomy between 'fun' and political identities:

Which the website Femhype aptly skewered for its defense and maintenance of the status quo:

I am still rather disappointed that you continue to claim an apolitical stance when you clearly have not done so. The games you make all have their own political messages whether you realize it or not, and these messages can have a profound impact — both positive and negative — on the gamers who play them. By refusing to make a "statement," you actually made one: that you prefer to maintain the status quo rather than try to step outside of the box and appeal to the wide spectrum of gamers you have in your fanbase.

Click to shrink...

And apparently this PR veneer of 'fun' seems to be working, as I don't see many people criticize Nintendo for their very socially conservative depictions of e.g. gender in the for example otherwise critically lauded Breath of the Wild. Somehow this game is wildly celebrated as an artistic achievement, yet its constant centering of the male Link as the hero of the story after decades of the same old conservative narrative, the key to Zelda's destiny is a tired sexist trope, and the game'scasual transphobia as Jennifer Unkle for Paste Magazine writes:

I don't fault critics for falling in love with Breath of the Wild. The game's willingness to throw out series staples and chart a new course is commendable. But I can't help feeling bitter when I read the glowing acclaim, or eyeball its perfect review scores. Surely these same critics saw Link's horror at Vilia's face? When they praised the developers for showing progress, or Tweet about "thirsty Nintendo," did the game's blatantly transphobic joke not count as a step backward? The game's disdainful stance toward my existence stings even worse when no one else acknowledges it as a problem. Should I let this slide as a small misstep and move on, or address a hurtful joke others ignored and risk looking oversensitive?

Click to shrink...

As Feminist Frequency tweeted back in March and which is relevant for the current GOTY discussions surrounding the game:



I honestly think it's about time Nintendo wises up and evolves away from their very conservative approach to their games in relation to social themes and characters, and that gaming culture and critics don't turn a blind eye to their maintenance of the gaming status quo.

 

[PattonFiend]

Link and Mario could both dress as women in their newest games... but Nintendo is sooooo closed-minded towards social happenings..?

I guess I am just not seeing it... :(

 

[Robin]

Link and Mario could both dress as women in their newest games... but Nintendo is sooooo closed-minded towards social happenings..?

I guess I am just not seeing it... :(

Click to shrink...

I don't particularly agree with OP but Link's crossdressing in BotW was actually seen as problematic by a whole slew of people.

I'd understand your stance better if Nintendo hadn't been improving in representation of women and minorities while spouting their usual spiel. Games like Animal Crossing and Pokemon finally have inclusive casts, gay people finally exist to the company as of Fire Emblem, and there are more playable women then there ever have been.

If the giant isn't moving fast enough for you it's understandable, but to pretend like this is a distraction tactic while they sit on their ass and do nothing is disingenuous.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much, this.

 

[brainchild]

You can criticize how they represent politics in their games just fine, but you shouldn't conflate the acclaim of their games with acceptance of bad political representation.

People are capable of looking at those components separately and assigning how much each element of a game's design influences their overall critique of a game. Some people don't factor the political elements of games as heavily into their critiques as others and they're perfectly well within their right to do so.

 

[Cap G]

I'd understand your stance better if Nintendo hadn't been improving in representation of women and minorities while spouting their usual spiel. Games like Animal Crossing and Pokemon finally have inclusive casts, gay people finally exist to the company as of Fire Emblem, and there are more playable women then there ever have been.

If the giant isn't moving fast enough for you it's understandable, but to pretend like this is a distraction tactic while they sit on their ass and do nothing is disingenuous.

 

[PattonFiend]

I don't particularly agree with OP but Link's crossdressing in BotW was actually seen as problematic by a whole slew of people.

Click to shrink...

...and it was seen as a step in the right direction by others by allowing the player to choose.

 

[Raijinto]

For a start your Tomdatchi Life piece is missing a crucial piece of information. After they were put on blast for how they handled the situation, I am 99.9% certain that Nintendo apologised and promised at the very least to consider having homosexual relationships in a potential sequel.

And BoTW has many great women characters so I don't understand the FF tweet aside from being disappointed at Zelda's damsel in distress role.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

are they suggesting that the crossdressing scene means that people dont give a damn about women, and that it should have had significant points deducted for this?
that seems like such an extreme stance to take over such a tiny part of a game. I thought the scene was dumb, but if you're part of any fan art community people seemed to really love the crossdressing Link unironically.

 

[Deleted member 8001]

I'd understand your stance better if Nintendo hadn't been improving in representation of women and minorities while spouting their usual spiel. Games like Animal Crossing and Pokemon finally have inclusive casts, gay people finally exist to the company as of Fire Emblem, and there are more playable women then there ever have been.

If the giant isn't moving fast enough for you it's understandable, but to pretend like this is a distraction tactic while they sit on their ass and do nothing is disingenuous.

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't use Fire Emblem as a defense, the representation there is honestly pretty bad. Also more playable women in Fire Emblem is nice except for how much they get fan serviced compared to the male characters.

 

[P-MAC]

But I can't help feeling bitter when I read the glowing acclaim, or eyeball its perfect review scores. Surely these same critics saw Link's horror at Vilia's face?

Click to shrink...

This entirely didn't happen. It was more like mild surprise, and not in a negative way.

 

[?oe?oe]

No fun allowed!

Or is it no "fun" allowed?

 

[Aprikurt]

I can see the cross dressing in BotW is problematic, but I absolutely don't agree that games need to have a political message in order to be successful or respected.

What do you need exactly, the ruler of a Fire Emblem kingdom to be an orange-skinned, loud-mouthed tyrant with a shock of blonde "hair"?

 

[perfectchaos007]

...and it was seen as a step in the right direction by others by allowing the player to choose.

Click to shrink...

Have you played the game? I don't want to give spoilers away but theres an entire city in the game that you can't enter unless.....
Anyways, you can't choose in this case

 

[jonjonaug]

Xenoblade X is a progressive wet dream of a game (bikini armor aside) full of political statements, along with Xenoblade 1 and 2 to lesser extents, so I don't know what Reggie was ever going on about there.

 

[PattonFiend]

Have you played the game? I don't want to give spoilers away but theres an entire city in the game that you can't enter unless.....
Anyways, you can't choose in this case

Click to shrink...

But you can choose to dress as a woman any time you want in both games. You are limiting the game to one experience by saying that...

...and yes, I have played the game:

 

[Cap G]

I wouldn't use Fire Emblem as a defense, the representation there is honestly pretty bad. Also more playable women in Fire Emblem is nice except for how much they get fan serviced compared to the male characters.

Click to shrink...

Both characters suck, but the company outright didn't have any gay characters that were taken even moderately seriously prior. Gay people existing > gay people not existing.

 

[Kyra]

Isn't link bossed around by several women in powerful positions for much of the game? I feel as if BotW has some of the best treatment of women in a game I've played. Is it bad because link is still a man?

 

[Ereineon]

But I thought BotW depicted women as the main force?

Spoiler

The princess is the one who saved the world (and the hero), the princess is the protagonist of the story in the end with her growing up depicted on the memories, the one sacrifices herself, the one who imprison ganon in the end... yes, Link is the protagonist of the story, but we also see 2 female champions (who also lead their people), 2 male champions, and the princess saves the day/century...

I dont understand those groups and their agendas.

Did they even play the game or are they just trying to use its fame for exposure?

Also the coment about trans or gay characters and their interactions with Link are totally out of place, those kind of interactions where more like the anecdotal joke moment as they tease him...

Anyway, whatever they do, some of these "feminist" groups will find some excuse anyway so... whatevs

 

[Sahasrahla]

Link and Mario could both dress as women in their newest games... but Nintendo is sooooo closed-minded towards social happenings..?

Click to shrink...

I've been meaning to ask about Japanese people and how they view cross-dressing. I'm just starting to learn a tiny bit about Japanese culture and heard that in the past in theatres men would play also the female roles. That made me wonder if they see cross-dressing as we do in the west, either as fetish / raunchy fun or more recently as transgender, or do they view it more like just dressing up in a costume in general?

 

[Sylverstone]

I'd understand your stance better if Nintendo hadn't been improving in representation of women and minorities while spouting their usual spiel. Games like Animal Crossing and Pokemon finally have inclusive casts, gay people finally exist to the company as of Fire Emblem, and there are more playable women then there ever have been.

If the giant isn't moving fast enough for you it's understandable, but to pretend like this is a distraction tactic while they sit on their ass and do nothing is disingenuous.

Click to shrink...

Explained it better than I could.

I'm not gonna expect sweeping changes to be made overnight. If you're expecting that, you're gonna be disappointed all the while, even with the bits of progress that come through.

 

[Rmagnus]

Simple just don't buy their games if it means so much to you

 

[Shroki]

I don't particularly agree with OP but Link's crossdressing in BotW was actually seen as problematic by a whole slew of people.

Click to shrink...

Oh fucking brother.

He has to dress up like a women to get into a place where only women are allowed. It has all the social commentary of a typical Bosom Buddies episode (read: none at all).

 

[Robin]

...and it was seen as a step in the right direction by others by allowing the player to choose.

Click to shrink...

It's hard to spin it as a positive when the game is constantly fetishizing Link in the gerudo outfit as well as them making a gag out of the guy with a beard who sells it to you. In my friend group many of my trans friends oggled and cheered the slew of fan art, and I honestly found it cute and fun as well, but really critically looking at the game itself and how it's presented it's rather hard to actually spin it as a positive.

Oh fucking brother.

He has to dress up like a women to get into a place where only women are allowed. It has all the social commentary of a Bosom Buddies episode (read: none at all).

Click to shrink...

I'm not certain what you're getting at. Intent has nothing to do with whether something is ultimately a positive or negative representation.

 

[Charamiwa]

How you get the Gerudo clothes can be seen as problematic (or really immature, if anything). But the fact is you can then cross dress to your heart desire for the rest of the game (including the final boss and the end cutscene), and NPCs will compliment your look, or don't say anything at all. Passed the original scene, you won't ever get criticized or mocked for wearing women's clothes, on the contrary. I don't see that as problematic.

 

[Killingmoon]

I play games because I want to relax and have fun. I don't play it to be embroiled in stupid politics because I already encounter that every day in my working hours. I'm fine with Nintendo games taking a conservative and neutral stance in these topics. And it's not like they're not improving in that front either.

Frankly, I have no fucking idea how you can enjoy games. Even in the old forums, it's like you're always looking for something to be politically outraged over.

 

[P-MAC]

Isn't link bossed around by several women in powerful positions for much of the game? I feel as if BotW has some of the best treatment of women in a game I've played. Is it bad because link is still a man?

Click to shrink...

I think people who criticise that scene are saying it's offensive to cross dressers and the trans community not women. It's about sneaking into a city run by woman so if not, that stance would be pretty stupid. I still agree with you though, it's just a bit of fun that doesn't suggest anything negative about those groups at all.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Eh, I think it's pretty disengenous to label Breath of the Wild as a game that treats it's female characters poorly. Two of the five champions are women, and Gerudo Town got a lot of praise for it's wide variety of body types as well as portraying a society full of women eschewing traditional gender roles. Yes, the scene in which Link reacts to Vilia can definitely come across as problematic, but acting as though Link's cross dressing or the way the game represents women is universally derided by the LGBT and feminist gaming community is just false.

On top of that, you are conveniently ignoring the areas in which Nintendo's representation of women or LGBT characters are slowly but surely getting better, because it doesn't fit your point. ARMS has nearly half of its roster as female characters, representing a wide variety of ages, looks, playstyles, etc. Fire Emblem is finally featuring openly gay characters.

 

[Lord Azrael]

Just because their games are praised doesn't mean people are turning a blind eye to some problematic aspects. People can buy a game without condoning everything in it, and there have been plenty of discussions about some of the examples you listed.

I hate Reggie and his dumb PR statements but I wouldn't take that as a reflection of the views held by the people actually making the games. The developers themselves have been trending much better on a lot of these things recently.

 

[Pancakes R Us]

I'd understand your stance better if Nintendo hadn't been improving in representation of women and minorities while spouting their usual spiel. Games like Animal Crossing and Pokemon finally have inclusive casts, gay people finally exist to the company as of Fire Emblem, and there are more playable women then there ever have been.

If the giant isn't moving fast enough for you it's understandable, but to pretend like this is a distraction tactic while they sit on their ass and do nothing is disingenuous.

Click to shrink...

My problem is why has it taken this long. Why in what was it...2013, when Animal crossing New Leaf released we could not make our charachter a non-Caucasian one? It's not like this was the dark ages or anywhere close the various traditional civil rights movements. I love Nintendo. Love the company and its games and characters. However, it is still run by a bunch of old men in Japan that don't seem to either care or have the faintest clue about certain things. Or both.

 

[Majukun]

not everything is political,not everything is a statement.

it doesn't magically become one just because you wish it was

 

[Metal Gear Miyamoto]

In your dreams they'll change this policy, maybe. This type of deflection is what's kept Nintendo out of some very hot political waters in both the 80's and 90's. David Sheff wrote about some very though experiences the company had to go through when entering the marketplace.

The easy answer here is that those times are over but that's horseshit. In recent weeks we've seen a big hollywood blockbuster highjacked by rightwingers to air grievances about diversity. All of it bullshit but it had enough impact to influence popular perception in a negative way.

Simply put, becoming part of the resistance is something Nintendo will never do. It cedes control of the narrative of the products they put out. Only when the resistance had become the defacto status quo will you see Nintendo adapt. Untill then, it's like trying to scream at the tide to turn back.

Good luck with that OP.

 

[Copper]

I agree with that declaration by films-aime being problematic especially as he is american, but their games? They're probably the most progressive your could get from japan which is 100% homogeneous and incredibly misoginist. See:
- how competent are depicted women in general in the last Zelda
- how varied are skintones in the latest Nintendo games, including splatoon and arms
- how u can dress as a woman in both Mario and Zelda and no one care
- how there's an use of non-gendered character choices in the latest pokemon

I was sad to see botw's link not a woman, but Keep in mind what kind of people are making this. I mean, look at what misoginist garbage come out from japan on average. Nintendo have been trying to improve at least.

 

[Celine]

"Making political statements are for other people to do, we want people to smile and have fun when they play our games."

Click to shrink...

Good, that's why many Nintendo game are ageless.

 

[Kyra]

I think people who criticise that scene are saying it's offensive to cross dressers and the trans community not women. It's about sneaking into a city run by woman so if not, that stance would be pretty stupid. I still agree with you though, it's just a bit of fun that doesn't suggest anything negative about those groups at all.

Click to shrink...

I mean as a whole.. Zelda has to defeat ganon and needs links help to do it but she's been fighting evil while link has been in dreamland.. If anything link is trying to catch up with her and hey on her level while everyone else in the world has their shit together. If anyone is in distress in this game it's link.

 

[Charamiwa]

It's hard to spin it as a positive when the game is constantly fetishizing Link in the gerudo outfit as well as them making a gag out of the guy with a beard who sells it to you. In my friend group many of my trans friends oggled and cheered the slew of fan art, and I honestly found it cute and fun as well, but really critically looking at the game itself and how it's presented it's rather hard to actually spin it as a positive.

Click to shrink...

This is absolutely not true. At most he gets compliment for how good he looks, but most of the time it's just treated like any other outfits. Like I said,you can finish the game with it, can do the whole game like that, and it's never brought up.

 

[Watershed]

I think Nintendo is changing and in a progressive direction in many ways. Their stance shouldn't be understood as static.

Gay relationships are much more common in Nintendo games lately such as FE. Animal Crossing is becoming more inclusive with skin color options and allowing cross-dressing without any humor. And BOTW features strong female characters like Urbosa despite Zelda being fairly absent by nature of the story.

And I think there is some truth on Nintendo's part in the idea that they do not consider political messages when making their games. Historically you can see how this creates some challenges for English localizations when problematic ideas or visuals that are normal in Japan run into issues with NOA.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

My problem is why has it taken this long. Why in what was it...2013, when Animal crossing New Leaf released we could not make our charachter a non-Caucasian one? It's not like this was the dark ages or anywhere close the various traditional civil rights movements. I love Nintendo. Love the company and its games and characters. However, it is still run by a bunch of old men in Japan that don't seem to either care or have the faintest clue about certain things. Or both.

Click to shrink...

You are right, Nintendo is a company run by old Japanese men, their games are primarily developed in an extremely conservative environment. Yet despite that, they've begun to slowly adapt and change for the better.

 

[MusclesAreGirly]

Uh, Anita says some things I agree with. But the one about Breath of the Wild I certainly don't agree with.

It seems almost like she's trying to shame or pressure reviewers into lowering the score of Breath of the Wild. Or acting as if thinking or treating BOtW as a 10/10 game and feminism are mutually exclusive. That tweet sounds a bit unreasonable.
If rating Breath of the Wild 10/10 means you can't be a feminist or don't care about feminism, I guess that means I can't be a feminist.

 

[Caligula13]

I am very happy how they handle that.

 

[Wiped]

What a load of nonsense.

Nintendo makes a point of deliberately avoiding anything political, or controversial. Will that lead to Nintendo games feeling super old fashioned in like another 100 years time? Maybe. But you can already feel a hint of modernity with things like the androgynous designs of the squid people in Splatoon, or the ability to cross-dress in Mario & Zelda.

Not everything needs to be a political statement. I don't think we need a big statement about gay relationships or feminism in Super Mario Odyssey or Zelda Breath of the Wild. I really don't.

 

[Robin]

How you get the Gerudo clothes can be seen as problematic (or really immature, if anything). But the fact is you can then cross dress to your heart desire for the rest of the game (including the final boss and the end cutscene), and NPCs will compliment your look, or don't say anything at all. Passed the original scene, you won't ever get criticized or mocked for wearing women's clothes, on the contrary. I don't see that as problematic.

Click to shrink...

It's a mixed bag IMO. I'm just hesitant to call it purely positive, which the poster I was quoting was.

 

[Real Hero]

This is like complaining Dexters lab doesn't deal enough with racial violence

 

[Jebusman]

I've been meaning to ask about Japanese people and how they view cross-dressing. I'm just starting to learn a tiny bit about Japanese culture and heard that in the past in theatres men would play also the female roles. That made me wonder if they see cross-dressing as we do in the west, either as fetish / raunchy fun or more recently as transgender, or do they view it more like just dressing up in a costume in general?

Click to shrink...

Half and half? It's definitely used to deconstruct gender roles in certain media, stuff like Revolutionary Girl Utena, Rose of Versailles, etc. Essentially exploring themes that would still be considered relatively taboo ("forbidden love") at the time in the general public.

And then for some it's really just dressing up in a costume.

The Takarazuka Revue is a good example of this. All female theatre troupe that's been around since the 1910s. I would have no doubt some of the actors there may be using the crossdressing as a liberating way to escape the perceived gender roles they are expected to be in. And some of them might just consider it a job and just dressing up.

 

[Subconian Dreamer]

I guess at least they aren't intentionally using politically loaded imagery and themes and then going "haha, of course our game doesn't actually have anything to say" like Detroit and Far Cry 5?

 

[PattonFiend]

It's hard to spin it as a positive when the game is constantly fetishizing Link in the gerudo outfit as well as them making a gag out of the guy with a beard who sells it to you. In my friend group many of my trans friends oggled and cheered the slew of fan art, and I honestly found it cute and fun as well, but really critically looking at the game itself and how it's presented it's rather hard to actually spin it as a positive.

Click to shrink...

I don't agree at all. Giving the player the choice seems to me to be a step in the right direction towards change, and that it what is important here. Maybe they did not pull it off exactly how everyone wanted, but they tried something new, they tried to bring a little change in their games with not only these two games (Mario and Zelda) but also games like Fire Emblem and Animal Crossing. Agree to disagree :)

 

[psychowave]

Reggie's statement was dumb as hell (like most of what he says as a PR mouthpiece tbh). Nintendo has been getting a lot better with social issues, but they have a long way to go.

I don't agree at all. Giving the player the choice seems to me to be a step in the right direction towards change, and that it what is important here. Maybe they did not pull it off exactly how everyone wanted, but they tried something new, they tried to bring a little change in their games with not only these two games (Mario and Zelda) but also games like Fire Emblem and Animal Crossing. Agree to disagree :)

Click to shrink...

I don't see how Fire Emblem is a positive example of anything when it comes to social issues, unless I misunderstood you and you were talking about something else.

 

[Majukun]

Uh, Anita says some things I agree with. But the one about Breath of the Wild I certainly don't agree with.

It seems almost like she's trying to shame or pressure reviewers into lowering the score of Breath of the Wild. Or acting as if thinking or treating BOtW as a 10/10 game and feminism are mutually exclusive. That tweet sounds a bit unreasonable.
If rating Breath of the Wild 10/10 means you can't be a feminist or don't care about feminism, I guess that means I can't be a feminist.

Click to shrink...

now it has became her job,so he has to create controversy to "spread awareness"

basically it's like PETA,no one in their right mind would ever dismiss their main mission, but the ways they try to keep the matter relevant ends up hurting the fight altogether...when you call wolf all the time, nobody will really care when the pack comes to town.

It's hard to spin it as a positive when the game is constantly fetishizing Link in the gerudo outfit as well as them making a gag out of the guy with a beard who sells it to you.

Click to shrink...

how in the blue hell is the game fetishizing LInk in gerudo clothes ò_ò?

 

[mjp2417]

Good, that's why many Nintendo game are ageless.

Click to shrink...

Nintendo games are evergreen because their game designers are the best in the industry, not because their corporate talking heads spew corporate talking heads pablum.

 

[Typhon]

I play games because I want to relax and have fun. I don't play it to be embroiled in stupid politics because I already encounter that every day in my working hours. I'm fine with Nintendo games taking a conservative and neutral stance in these topics. And it's not like they're not improving in that front either.

Frankly, I have no fucking idea how you can enjoy games. Even in the old forums, it's like you're always looking for something to be politically outraged over.

Click to shrink...

I'm not agreeing with the OP's argument but don't you ever want to be challenged? Plenty of games made me think in new ways because they were bold enough to challenge my preconceptions and not play it safe. Just how movies, tv shows and books have done the same. Why should games be any different?

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Uh, Anita says some things I agree with. But the one about Breath of the Wild I certainly don't agree with.

It seems almost like she's trying to shame or pressure reviewers into lowering the score of Breath of the Wild. Or acting as if thinking or treating BOtW as a 10/10 game and feminism are mutually exclusive. That tweet sounds a bit unreasonable.
If rating Breath of the Wild 10/10 means you can't be a feminist or don't care about feminism, I guess that means I can't be a feminist.

Click to shrink...

Agreed, especially when considering all the positive discussion surrounding the Champions or Gerudo town. That tweet reads as if they are telling everyone what they should think rather than experiencing the game for themself and coming to their own conclusion. It's gatekeeping, and I hate to see a normally positive force for feminism in gaming engaging in that kind of behavior.