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psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
People who want to talk about the gameplay are not really free to do that when the discussion was shifted to talk just about those designs and nothing else. The same thing happened with Xenoblade 2.
But please, do tell what is acceptable to talk about or not, while giving moral lessons at the same time.
So instead of getting mad at the devs for making these abhorrent designs, you get mad at the people who have had the game ruined for them by association because of them.
If someone is to blame for the derailing, it's the devs. Not the people who are disgusted by the sexy kids and can't look past them, which is the normal, understandable reaction.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,346
People who want to talk about the gameplay are not really free to do that when the discussion was shifted to talk just about those designs and nothing else. The same thing happened with Xenoblade 2.
But please, do tell what is acceptable to talk about or not, while giving moral lessons at the same time.

I don't see one person being uncivil to a member who is discussing the gameplay. It seems like what you want is for people to stop talking about the disgusting images and focus only on the gameplay. I'm saying we can have both at the same time. Pretending these images don't exist won't make them go away.
 

Dynheart

Self-requested ban
Member
Oct 31, 2017
658
I don't see one person being uncivil to a member who is discussing the gameplay. It seems like what you want is for people to stop talking about the disgusting images and focus only on the gameplay. I'm saying we can have both at the same time. Pretending these images don't exist won't make them go away.
I think what the person wants is to talk about how the game will play, but the flow of the thread right will not allow that. This thread, ideally, would be the place to do it, as a "game play" thread would most likely get shot down (especially since is was just announced, it will most likely get merged with this one). Historically, between this site and the other, if people interested in any game with questionable art design, they most likely have to wait for the storm to blow over to talk about it. Call it fair, call it unfair, call it what ever you want, but at this forums heart...it's gaming, right? I do not see why there cannot be separate threads for separate discussion: Art design and social issues, and leave the other one for people who just want to talk about how the will play.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I think what the person wants is to talk about how the game will play, but the flow of the thread right will not allow that. This thread, ideally, would be the place to do it, as a "game play" thread would most likely get shot down (especially since is was just announced, it will most likely get merged with this one). Historically, between this site and the other, if people interested in any game with questionable art design, they most likely have to wait for the storm to blow over to talk about it. Call it fair, call it unfair, call it what ever you want, but at this forums heart...it's gaming, right? I do not see why there cannot be separate threads for separate discussion: Art design and social issues, and leave the other one for people who just want to talk about how the will play.
Since when did we separate out criticism of visuals, (or writing etc for that matter) from gameplay in a thread about an upcoming game? It's just as valid as discussion of the gameplay, and if more people want to talk about it, perhaps that's because sexualised depictions of children disgusts some posters just as much as others might want to praise the visuals of another game instead.
 

foxuzamaki

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,556
Since when did we separate out criticism of visuals, (or writing etc for that matter) from gameplay in a thread about an upcoming game? It's just as valid as discussion of the gameplay, and if more people want to talk about it, perhaps that's because sexualised depictions of children disgusts some posters just as much as others might want to praise the visuals of another game instead.
I have been staying out of this thread but I will say in xenoblade 2's case it actually did get so bad that mods had to come in and either closed the threads or put a warning that the discussion was to keep to the discussion of the actual game, most notably in the OT
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,165
I'm not seeing anything unusual here for Harada designs. Isn't most of what he draws fanservice? I mean, I've been playing games that have art by Takehito Harada for like over a decade now. This just looks like the typical kind of thing he draws, whether it be the older or younger characters.
 

Dandy Crocodile

Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
The discussion about the art has completely monopolized the discussion.
I really hope it doesn't happen in the OT on release for those who want to discuss the actual game.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,346
I think what the person wants is to talk about how the game will play, but the flow of the thread right will not allow that. This thread, ideally, would be the place to do it, as a "game play" thread would most likely get shot down (especially since is was just announced, it will most likely get merged with this one). Historically, between this site and the other, if people interested in any game with questionable art design, they most likely have to wait for the storm to blow over to talk about it. Call it fair, call it unfair, call it what ever you want, but at this forums heart...it's gaming, right? I do not see why there cannot be separate threads for separate discussion: Art design and social issues, and leave the other one for people who just want to talk about how the will play.

Again, I don't see it. If people would rather discuss the gameplay but are conflicted or distracted by all the controversy, there's probably some cognitive dissonance happening.
 

Dynheart

Self-requested ban
Member
Oct 31, 2017
658
Hey, go for it. Just stating the obvious. IMO, I'd like to talk about a game from time to time, but the criticisms can drudge on for 20 pages+ (not saying it isn't warranted). When the discussion is that deep, the thread content has obviously changed; and at risk for derailing. I know, I was 3 day banned once at the old site for derailing on an announcement thread. The thread was no longer about the game in general, really, about about the visuals of the game, and the thread title didn't reflect it. All I am saying is if it gets to that point, and it does often with visuals, why not create a separate thread OR change the thread title, because at that point it's not an announcement for a title, but rather the visual of said title.

In short, I do not believe games are immune to criticism. I just wish the threads reflect the discussion proper, especially when threads like this one organically change it's content VS what the thread title leads on.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,165
It's interesting that people bring up Etrian Odyssey in this thread. Yuji Himukai, the face of EO as its artist, is a huge fan of Takehito Harada's work on stuff like Disgaea and was very clearly inspired by him - they both really love drawing risque designs, Himukai having been a porn artist himself before EO.

Himukai's work has even appeared in Disgaea as victory card guest art.
 
Dec 18, 2017
1,374
What is the purpose of turning the thread into this? Venting?

It isn't' going to create a discussion because no one is allowed to disagree with you and anyone who dissents from your worldview will be punished.
It isn't creating discussion if only one viewpoint is allowed and the other is a bannable offense.

I do think this is a thread derail and we should be talking about the game instead. I think that it would be more productive if this thread were more about other aspects of the game, rather than dogpiling on a character's physical appearance.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,346
What is the purpose of turning the thread into this? Venting?

It isn't' going to create a discussion because no one is allowed to disagree with you and anyone who dissents from your worldview will be punished.
It isn't creating discussion if only one viewpoint is allowed and the other is a bannable offense.

What is the alternative opinion?

If it's that the game looks really fun, I don't see the problem.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,165
One of my friends is absolutely ecstatic about this being localized. She can't wait to play it on Switch, too, because IIRC she played the Japanese version on Vita already and in her words it's "kamige."
 

halvvapoori

Member
Oct 25, 2017
368
Amsterdam
That mod edit really is all I need to know about this game

The rest of y'all have fun tho
SNjGfCL.png
 

Dandy Crocodile

Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
One of my friends is absolutely ecstatic about this being localized. She can't wait to play it on Switch, too, because IIRC she played the Japanese version on Vita already and in her words it's "kamige."
I usually don't care much for DRPGs beyond Etrian Odyssey as they tend to fall short for me but the more I read up on the mechanics of the game the better this seems. The different parties seem super customizable and unique in the genre so I hope it's as good as all the talk makes it seem.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,165
I usually don't care much for DRPGs beyond Etrian Odyssey as they tend to fall short for me but the more I read up on the mechanics of the game the better this seems. The different parties seem super customizable and unique in the genre so I hope it's as good as all the talk makes it seem.
Again, my experience with the game is purely from people telling me about it. However, everything I've heard indicates that this is EO tier dungeon crawling, except with considerably more story. Obviously, combat isn't the same, but it's not one of those shit garbage throwaway Vita DRPGs.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I have been staying out of this thread but I will say in xenoblade 2's case it actually did get so bad that mods had to come in and either closed the threads or put a warning that the discussion was to keep to the discussion of the actual game, most notably in the OT
I think that was a bit of an extreme example as it carried across multiple general threads partially down to the hard limit on who could create threads on Era at the time. There's a big difference in exactly how much discussion is generated by a reaction to naff character design in a tentpole Nintendo release in the first winter of their successful new console, and a niche dungeon crawler with sexualised depictions of children.

I just don't see why only raw game mechanics should be regarded as the central official discussion, and criticism of character design, animation etc quarantined off somewhere, the latter two are also central to the game and prominent due to their position in the advertising campaigns and trailers.

I love JRPGs and dungeon crawls, but it seems like the running theme of what puts me off buying them at the moment is character design. I don't see why I should not be allowed to criticise visuals in threads about upcoming games when the main hook of such threads is usually visual media like trailers and screenshots long before we have raw info on gameplay mechanics.

If a thread is specifically titled 'game mechanics discussion only' then sure, let's keep it that way. However, I don't agree with removing discussion of character design from 'general' or 'upcoming' game threads just because it makes some people uncomfortable that others find it creepy as hell. If there wasn't such a dedicated defence of such shit, it wouldn't derail so easily.
 
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Spikematic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,357
Why can't they just make the girls look older? I mean, yes, it's art and they're not real (as many of the loli defenders repeatedly point out), but WHY do they have to look like they're between 8 and 12 years old (not counting the massive breasts, of course). Drawing half naked toddlers with exposed panties HAS to get creepy eventually. And yet they keep churning this shit out. It's disappointing and gross because I really do like the DRPG concept and would love to explore this genre further. Alas, doing that also means supporting games with blatant pedophilia. It's quite frustrating. Having said that, could anyone recommend similar games that don't feature such trashy "art?" I have a vita and 3DS gathering dust and I have some long flights coming up soon.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,165
Why can't they just make the girls look older? I mean, yes, it's art and they're not real (as many of the loli defenders repeatedly point out), but WHY do they have to look like they're between 8 and 12 years old (not counting the massive breasts, of course). Drawing half naked toddlers with exposed panties HAS to get creepy eventually. And yet they keep churning this shit out. It's disappointing and gross because I really do like the DRPG concept and would love to explore this genre further. Alas, doing that also means supporting games with blatant pedophilia. It's quite frustrating. Having said that, could anyone recommend similar games that doesn't feature such trashy "art?" I have a vita and 3DS gathering dust and I have some long flights coming up soon.
Because Takehito Harada has been drawing those since the PS2 days. I mean, he invented the original "1000 year old demon," Etna.
 

Lunchbox

ƃuoɹʍ ʇᴉ ƃuᴉop ǝɹ,noʎ 'ʇɥƃᴉɹ sᴉɥʇ pɐǝɹ noʎ ɟI
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,548
Rip City
Why can't they just make the girls look older? I mean, yes, it's art and they're not real (as many of the loli defenders repeatedly point out), but WHY do they have to look like they're between 8 and 12 years old (not counting the massive breasts, of course). Drawing half naked toddlers with exposed panties HAS to get creepy eventually. And yet they keep churning this shit out. It's disappointing and gross because I really do like the DRPG concept and would love to explore this genre further. Alas, doing that also means supporting games with blatant pedophilia. It's quite frustrating. Having said that, could anyone recommend similar games that don't feature such trashy "art?" I have a vita and 3DS gathering dust and I have some long flights coming up soon.
Etrian
 

ivb

Member
Oct 28, 2017
54
This picked my attention, however, I am going to buy SMT: Strange Journey for the 3DS when it hits. So I have some doubts, do I go directly for SMT or is Coven of Dusk worth my time? (By which I mean if the quality of it is remotely similar)
 

Kiunch

Member
Oct 26, 2017
239
I wish they would put more efforts into their collector's edition like StarCraft, Diablo, BG2, etc.

I heard a lot of praise for this game, but people usually over hyped games that never got localized. It seems like this is EO with more story? I guess the question now is switch or steam, been way too long since I got to play anime drpg.
 

Dandy Crocodile

Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
without map-drawing I reckon?
is the difficulty comparable? and the gameplay?
Yeah no map drawing. It's automatically done for you as you progress.
I don't know about the difficulty but probably. EO hasn't been as rough as it's infamously known in recent entries.
The gameplay looks more complex but I haven't looked too far into class specialization and skills yet due to the lack of English information.
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
Why can't they just make the girls look older? I mean, yes, it's art and they're not real (as many of the loli defenders repeatedly point out), but WHY do they have to look like they're between 8 and 12 years old (not counting the massive breasts, of course). Drawing half naked toddlers with exposed panties HAS to get creepy eventually. And yet they keep churning this shit out. It's disappointing and gross because I really do like the DRPG concept and would love to explore this genre further. Alas, doing that also means supporting games with blatant pedophilia. It's quite frustrating. Having said that, could anyone recommend similar games that don't feature such trashy "art?" I have a vita and 3DS gathering dust and I have some long flights coming up soon.

7th Dragon III on 3DS is fantastic, and only has a tiny bit of fanservice.
 

Black_Red

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,929
I loved EO games on 3DS (except for the desings), so waiting for reviews to see if this is on the same level :)


Again, I don't see it. If people would rather discuss the gameplay but are conflicted or distracted by all the controversy, there's probably some cognitive dissonance happening.
Nope, same thing happened with Xenoblade, people are just trying to boycott threads when they dont like the designs (I agree that they're awful, but people shouldnt try to boycott threads.
 
Nov 2, 2017
6,807
Shibuya
oTdkrDY.jpg

I gotta' say, while not all the designs are winners, some of them are really neat! It's impractical, but the combination of ribbon and plate armor on this one is pretty dope.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
So I hear this actually has a good story? Is that true and is it prominent within the game itself? Not really a fan of DRPGs, but I'd give it a shot if so.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,346
Nope, same thing happened with Xenoblade, people are just trying to boycott threads when they dont like the designs (I agree that they're awful, but people shouldnt try to boycott threads.

People I think can refuse to buy games that disagree with their own values, and of course they're free to discuss the games in a respectful manner. I have personally never gotten into this debate where people reject games because their art is hideous. I play games that look any sort of way, but I do object to the child designs, especially as an educator of young children.

Further, I don't think anyone in this thread has said they *like* those designs everyone is talking about, thankfully. The most they've said is that they don't want people to keep bringing it up.
 
Oct 26, 2017
945
So I hear this actually has a good story? Is that true and is it prominent within the game itself? Not really a fan of DRPGs, but I'd give it a shot if so.

It's more of "good for a drpg" (a genre with nonexistent to "meh" stories as is), rather than in general. If you're looking for a story worth mentioning, I would honestly look elsewhere, especially if you don't like drpgs.
 

Black_Red

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,929
People I think can refuse to buy games that disagree with their own values, and of course they're free to discuss the games in a respectful manner. I have personally never gotten into this debate where people reject games because their art is hideous. I play games that look any sort of way, but I do object to the child designs, especially as an educator of young children.

Further, I don't think anyone in this thread has said they *like* those designs everyone is talking about, thankfully. The most they've said is that they don't want people to keep bringing it up.

Of course, people can avoid buying those games, trying to boycott other type of discussions about the game is wrong.
 

Graciaus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
732
Anyone play it? Watching gameplay is difficult since I can't read Japanese. DRPGs where your characters only have a few attacks for most of the game usually bore me.
People I think can refuse to buy games that disagree with their own values, and of course they're free to discuss the games in a respectful manner. I have personally never gotten into this debate where people reject games because their art is hideous. I play games that look any sort of way, but I do object to the child designs, especially as an educator of young children.

Further, I don't think anyone in this thread has said they *like* those designs everyone is talking about, thankfully. The most they've said is that they don't want people to keep bringing it up.
You'd probably get banned.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
I just don't see why only raw game mechanics should be regarded as the central official discussion, and criticism of character design, animation etc quarantined off somewhere, the latter two are also central to the game and prominent due to their position in the advertising campaigns and trailers.

Because these kind of discussions are usually started by people who didn't play the game and probably never will. People who are actually playing the game need a separate space to talk about what they are actually playing, instead of just enduring pages of posts that are irrelevant to them. XB2 threads were a nightmare.

What I really don't understand is, if you don't like the design, just post "I don't like it" and move on. That's what I do, I don't look back to games that I already crossed off from my list. But some people seem to come to every thread of XB2 just to say how surely they definitely aren't going to play it. It's literally a boycott and it's really annoying.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
7th Dragon III on 3DS is fantastic, and only has a tiny bit of fanservice.
I'll second this, 7th Dragon Code VFD is a fantastic entry point into DRPGs, has a lot better presentation values than EO or other similar games, but sacrifices little in the way of mechanical depth. The story is only ok and I do think the game focuses too much on the story at times, but it's a great game. Also there are very few, if any, fanservice designs.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,346
What I really don't understand is, if you don't like the design, just post "I don't like it" and move on.

Well, I should think that if you don't like something because it places a child in a bikini, you might have something more to say about it. (just for starters that such a thing should never have been created by the artist in the first place).

Expanding on that a bit, we all agree on this point. Decent people agree that given the choice between that design existing and not existing, we would rather it not exist. This point of view accomplishes the goal of getting the discussion back on the gameplay and off the sickening nature of sexualising children.

No one has said "You like this game? You're a sicko." because that punishes the players who didn't draw these designs.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
Well, I should think that if you don't like something because it places a child in a bikini, you might have something more to say about it. (just for starters that such a thing should never have been created by the artist in the first place).
In XB2's case, anything anyone wants to say has been said a thousand times before. You think you might have something more to say, but you really don't.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Because these kind of discussions are usually started by people who didn't play the game and probably never will. People who are actually playing the game need a separate space to talk about what they are actually playing, instead of just enduring pages of posts that are irrelevant to them. XB2 threads were a nightmare.

What I really don't understand is, if you don't like the design, just post "I don't like it" and move on. That's what I do, I don't look back to games that I already crossed off from my list. But some people seem to come to every thread of XB2 just to say how surely they definitely aren't going to play it. It's literally a boycott and it's really annoying.
I already said why I thought the general XB2 threads were a special case, due to thread making privileges not being available to most users until this year combined with shitty fan service in a tentpole, high profile Nintendo game generating a lot of discussion. I still don't see how one extreme example justifies removing all discussion of visual elements like the bloody main characters from general discussion of a game. Plenty of people who played it have posted both positive and negative impressions of various aspects, shutting down criticism of lead visuals but not game mechanics is odd when both are parts of the game, and generalising that anyone criticising the visuals probably hasn't played it is ridiculous, particularly in threads before a game is even released.

Also, slightly ironic that XB2 discussion is now dragging this thread away from discussion of objection to sexualised child character design that was apparently already dragging it away from the premise! Maybe XB2 is Era's 'Dark Souls' where all discussion leads back to it in the end.
 
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Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,346
In XB2's case, anything anyone wants to say has been said a thousand times before. You think you might have something more to say, but you really don't.

Well I don't think the originality of the comment is as important as the substance of it. Some people wish to disassociate themselves from sexualized children art. I'm being as generous as I possibly can in assuming that grown adults aren't enamored with the bikini drawing that got removed on the first page. So what's left is for the creators to take some responsibility for their design choices.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,086
Halifax, NS
Well, at the other place, the prevailing attitude was that works of fiction were pretty well immune from criticism of their content. Anyone who would point out the harmful effects of child-like characters dressing or acting sexually provocative was told that it was just a game, movie, picture, etc. and these images were not real because no one was getting hurt. I know this because I was part of these discussions. People even took it a step further and argued that far from being harmful, these things were actually beneficial because they somehow allowed perverts to engage in their fantasies without it crossing the boundaries into real life.

Resetera has thankfully repealed all that, and rejected it in all of its facets. The administration of this forum have made it very clear that these images are not acceptable, or normal, or harmless. They are immoral, as we knew they were. The days of "thousand year old dragons" and people fetishing and/or winking at each other over their 8 year old "waifus" are over.

In all honestly though if we're going to reject the argument that they're not real thus no one is getting hurt, then I expect the same for all depictions of glorified violence as well. If "it's not real" isn't a valid defense for this, it's not a valid defense for every other depiction of heinous shit out there.

Child pornography is bad. Worse than bad. Ranks right up there in the list of most heinous shit possible. We all know this, no one disagrees with it. It shouldn't entirely get a free pass either just because it's fictional. You're still depicting what is and will forever be unacceptable in real life. And I have zero doubt people with sick sexual persuasions probably use it for their enjoyment. But to accept that "this shit is harmful because it enables pedophiles" veers too far close to "Call of duty trains kids to be killers", something we've long rejected as fact.

And I'm being genuine in this statement, is there any real, hard link between depictions of fictional minors in a sexual manner and those who commits those crimes in real life? Is there just too few studies on this to make the case one way or the other?

I get why discussion of games like Criminal Girls is banned. A game depicting minors in sexually compromised positions that you abuse, yeah that runs too far foul of good taste to justify in any way. But if the game just has character designs that have zero factor in the actual gameplay itself, while I welcome people criticizing the shit out of it, I just don't see that on the same level.

I don't entirely buy into the idea that it "helps" perverts from crossing the line though, but I'd honestly love to see some studies one way or the other showing what harm it is (or isn't) doing relative to actual child porn.