Northern Ireland "Gay Cake" case - Supreme Court sides with bakery

[Pankratous]

Ashers 'gay cake' row: Bakers win Supreme Court appeal - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-45789759

Didn't see a thread - could only find a similar thread of pretty much the exact situation that happened in Colorado.

Summary

> Gay man orders cake with "Support Gay Marriage" on the cake
> Bakery refuses because it is "inconsistent with their beliefs", but is happy to make him any other cake that doesn't have a pro-gay message
> Customer sues bakery
> Four years later, the Supreme Court rules in favour of the bakery, claiming it was not discrimination because it was the message on the cake the bakery didn't like, not the customer

Personally I think it's bullshit. However you slice it, the bakery refused because of homophobic, archaic 14th century beliefs. To me that should be a crime. I just don't agree with religious beliefs being used as an excuse to support bigotry in this century.

 

[SlightlyLive]

It's bigotry hiding behind a legal technicality. The tone of the supporters behind cake makers reveals all you need to know.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

That seems hyper specific. Essentially a political message which I think would be fair to refuse. Having said that I'm no NI legal expert so feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Koukalaka]

Interesting that the Supreme Court covers all of the UK, I always assumed it just covered England and Wales. I wonder how that works in practice considering the differences in the law (certainly here in Scotland).

 

[SlightlyLive]

Supreme lord shitwhistle has spoken.

 

[RocknRola]

Imagine not wanting to make money for your business.

Imagine being so backwards you're pissed at what a sugary cake coat says or not.

Sweet Jebus. Hope the couple got some decent cake elsewhere.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

[twitter]https://twitter.com/ianpaisleymp/status/1049963564092588033[/twitter]

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I think you need a media tag
Edit: fixed

 

[Sage]

Interesting that the Supreme Court covers all of the UK, I always assumed it just covered England and Wales. I wonder how that works in practice considering the differences in the law (certainly here in Scotland).

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It's just a court. They apply whatever law is relevant (and for Scotland, only civil law. Criminal law cases cannot be taken outside of Scotland). Like how you have the Court of Arbitration for Sport which for example if a football player or team brings a case to will apply the rules for football and so on.

 

[anariel]

That seems hyper specific. Essentially a political message which I think would be fair to refuse. Having said that I'm no NI legal expert so feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

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I guess to some extent I can understand this rationale (as, for whatever depressing reason, gay marriage is still considered a 'hot topic' in most of the world), but I take umbrage with

but is happy to make him any other cake that doesn't have a pro-gay message

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specifically. Try applying that to any other subset of humanity, where they refuse to work with any pro-minority message whatsoever, and I no longer see it as a 'political message' at all. It's actively refusing an entire set of people.

 

[ann3nova.]

however you slice it

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[Richter1887]

Stupid as hell.

I would have agreed with them if the man told them to write "Fuck Christianity" but all he told them to do was support gay marriage which shouldn't really matter if they supported it or not. It is just writing to them.

In any case, fuck this stupid shit.

 

[Hollywood Duo]

I guess to some extent I can understand this rationale (as, for whatever depressing reason, gay marriage is still considered a 'hot topic' in most of the world), but I take umbrage with



specifically. Try applying that to any other subset of humanity, where they refuse to work with any pro-minority message whatsoever, and I no longer see it as a 'political message' at all. It's actively refusing an entire set of people.

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Was the actual customer gay? It's not clear to me based on the article. Also, funny how they had Bert and Ernie on the cake after that recent proclamation that they are not gay.

 

[Akira86]

what if for religious reasons they couldn't do it. But they would be willing to bring the cake out and let the customer use the Icing Gun to spell out the word "Gay" at a slight discount?

 

[SugarNoodles]

Just a reminder that "pro gay" just means treating LGBTQ people with dignity. That's the message people are "uncomfortable" with.

 

[Deleted member 26372]

Glad to see the bakery get the upper hand of this entire farce. This should have been thrown out instantly, the money wasted over a 35 quid cake is quite frankly disgusting. These people (gay or not) should be ashamed of themselves for making a pantomime out of something so stupid. No one forced them to approve of the store owners beliefs and how the owners run their business is up to them. Don't like it? They can take their business somewhere else! Make a stink on social media! Protest at a school and make everyone know how hurt your feelings are. Don't try and drag them through the courts on outlandish claims, hopefully this sets an example to others.

The owner of this store would offer them business no problems at all, had no problems with providing them a cake for their gay wedding. No issues at all. But refused to push and promote an agenda/slogan against the store and the families Christian beliefs. The customers should have respected the shops position on the matter and moved on to another store. This clearly isn't how you change hearts and minds.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Glad to see the bakery get the upper hand of this entire farce. This should have been thrown out instantly, the money wasted over a 35 quid cake is quite frankly disgusting. These people (gay or not) should be ashamed of themselves for making a pantomime out of something so stupid. No one forced them to approve of the store owners beliefs and how the owners run their business is up to them. Don't like it? They can take their business somewhere else! Make a stink on social media! Protest at a school and make everyone know how hurt your feelings are. Don't try and drag them through the courts on outlandish claims, hopefully this sets an example to others.

The owner of this store would offer them business no problems at all, had no problems with providing them a cake for their gay wedding. No issues at all. But refused to push and promote an agenda/slogan against the store and the families Christian beliefs. The customers should have respected the shops position on the matter and moved on to another store. This clearly isn't how you change hearts and minds.

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Wow, what a terrible opinion. But I'm not surprised. The family is a bunch of homophobic idiots, and not matter how you try to twist it, this is on them.

This kind of bullshit shouldn't be accepted. Bakery should get treated with the utmost contempt. Can't say I'm exactly "disappointed" with the supreme court, it's just what I expect these days.

 

[Tempy]

drek

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Yeah, no.

 

[Deleted member 26372]

Wow, what a terrible opinion. But I'm not surprised. The family is a bunch of homophobic idiots, and not matter how you try to twist it, this is on them.

This kind of bullshit shouldn't be accepted. Bakery should get treated with the utmost contempt. Can't say I'm exactly "disappointed" with the supreme court, it's just what I expect these days.

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Homophobic? Idiots? *rolls eyes* having some nobody off the street, walk into YOUR business and demand you make a cake pushing some controversial agenda/slogan that you as a person or a business may accept on a morality level, but don't approve of on a religious and personal basis .. lol let me stop you right there, that's not how this world works.

 

[ShyMel]

Four years later, the Supreme Court rules in favour of the bakery, claiming it was not discrimination because it was the message on the cake the bakery didn't like, not the customer

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So are we supposed to ignore how religious homophobes think gay people are sinning by engaging in homosexuality?

 

[Brerlappin]

Wow, what a terrible opinion. But I'm not surprised. The family is a bunch of homophobic idiots, and not matter how you try to twist it, this is on them.

This kind of bullshit shouldn't be accepted. Bakery should get treated with the utmost contempt. Can't say I'm exactly "disappointed" with the supreme court, it's just what I expect these days.

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Look im as liberal and pro gay as anyone, but in this case, i dont think anyone should be compelled by law to do something like this if they dont believe in it. Like if i ran a print shop i wouldnt want someone coming in telling me "You have to print all my Trump 2020 posters or ill sue you". No. fuck out of my shop with that shit. Do i think its shitty and bigoted of the cake shop owners? Yeah, theyre pricks. But as i said, i wouldnt want someone telling me that my business has to create something with a logo on it that is against MY beliefs either

 

[HellforLeather]

Thank god people are finally focusing on the REAL issues.....bigot bakeries!

 

[Deception]

Look im as liberal and pro gay as anyone, but in this case, i dont think anyone should be compelled by law to do something like this if they dont believe in it. Like if i ran a print shop i wouldnt want someone coming in telling me "You have to print all my Trump 2020 posters or ill sue you". No. fuck out of my shop with that shit. Do i think its shitty and bigoted of the cake shop owners? Yeah, theyre pricks. But as i said, i wouldnt want someone telling me that my business has to create something with a logo on it that is against MY beliefs either

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I think this is the right take on the matter. Shitty on the shop owners for refusing but it is fully within their rights to refuse to make a cake with the message.


Edit: I am not condoning homophobia or excusing it.

 

[Deleted member 1478]

Look im as liberal and pro gay as anyone, but in this case, i dont think anyone should be compelled by law to do something like this if they dont believe in it. Like if i ran a print shop i wouldnt want someone coming in telling me "You have to print all my Trump 2020 posters or ill sue you". No. fuck out of my shop with that shit. Do i think its shitty and bigoted of the cake shop owners? Yeah, theyre pricks. But as i said, i wouldnt want someone telling me that my business has to create something with a logo on it that is against MY beliefs either

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That's kind of where I land on it as well.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Homophobic? Idiots? *rolls eyes* having some nobody off the street, walk into YOUR business and demand you make a cake pushing some controversial agenda/slogan that you as a person or a business may accept on a morality level, but don't approve of on a religious and personal basis .. lol let me stop you right there, that's not how this world works.

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"Controversial", man, you're too much.
Feel free to keep rolling your eyes, but also explain how someone refusing to make a cake like this is not, per definition, homophobic. Just because they use supernaturally imposed homophobic morality doesn't mean it stops being clearly homophobic.
The bakers are too full of themselves. As long as the message on the cake doesn't break any laws, it is not a valid reason to deny the order. That's absolutely how society works, unless you want to live on a world where people can use their religion to justify basically any form of discrimination against any customer. Which you possibly do, I guess.

Look im as liberal and pro gay as anyone, but in this case, i dont think anyone should be compelled by law to do something like this if they dont believe in it. Like if i ran a print shop i wouldnt want someone coming in telling me "You have to print all my Trump 2020 posters or ill sue you". No. fuck out of my shop with that shit. Do i think its shitty and bigoted of the cake shop owners? Yeah, theyre pricks. But as i said, i wouldnt want someone telling me that my business has to create something with a logo on it that is against MY beliefs either

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No. "Print it or fuck off" would be my judgement in that hypothetical scenario. If you're offering a service to the public, you should be required to do it for anyone who wants to use it within the confines of the law. Its not the same for every job (a personal service needs to be able to be turned down for any reason), but for printers, bakeries, that kind of thing? Absolutely.

 

[WascallyWabbit]

Look im as liberal and pro gay as anyone, but in this case, i dont think anyone should be compelled by law to do something like this if they dont believe in it. Like if i ran a print shop i wouldnt want someone coming in telling me "You have to print all my Trump 2020 posters or ill sue you". No. fuck out of my shop with that shit. Do i think its shitty and bigoted of the cake shop owners? Yeah, theyre pricks. But as i said, i wouldnt want someone telling me that my business has to create something with a logo on it that is against MY beliefs either

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To pick a less controversial example to prove your point, if I was a bakery no way in hell would I want to be compelled to make a cake that says "Vote Republican" with an elephant on it.

 

[Kinsei]

It is possible to not be a homophobe but not support homosexuality on a moral level.

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No it's not.

 

[Nightwing123]

Wow, what a terrible opinion. But I'm not surprised. The family is a bunch of homophobic idiots, and not matter how you try to twist it, this is on them.

This kind of bullshit shouldn't be accepted. Bakery should get treated with the utmost contempt. Can't say I'm exactly "disappointed" with the supreme court, it's just what I expect these days.

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Check out his other posts when it comes to stuff like this is not exactly shocking to me.

 

[Karasseram]

I think this is the right take on the matter. Shitty on the shop owners for refusing but it is fully within their rights to refuse to make a cake with the message.
It is possible to not be a homophobe but not support homosexuality on a moral level.

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"It is possible to not be a racist but not support black people on a moral level."

 

[Lundren]

make everyone know how hurt your feelings are

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You're certainly an expert.

PS, it's marriage. Not gay marriage. It's not controversial or an agenda.

 

[impingu1984]

It's a difficult one as a legal technicality.

You can refuse a service based on your beliefs (ie I'll give you a cake, but not a cake with a slogan I don't believe in), but what if rufusing that service makes a it direct discrimination of the customer (ie you won't allow a gay couple to share a room in a hotel, they can 2 rooms, but not share)??

It's not straight forward..... or very clear tbh

 

[Westbahnhof]

To pick a less controversial example to prove your point, if I was a bakery no way in hell would I want to be compelled to make a cake that says "Vote Republican" with an elephant on it.

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I guess this is a very American thing, freedom for the business, not the customer. I think it's terrible.

 

[Tempy]

Good, the homophobe got banned. Hopefully perm.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Individuals have the right to believe whatever they want.
A business has no such rights.

I refuse to believe there's not a single person in Ashers business who could have done the order with no issues and, if so, their hiring process is incredibly discriminatory.

 

[Brerlappin]

To pick a less controversial example to prove your point, if I was a bakery no way in hell would I want to be compelled to make a cake that says "Vote Republican" with an elephant on it.

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Exactly, or on the opposite end of the same scale, if a perfectly nice, christian couple came into my fictional cake shop and said they wanted a "Ban Gay Marriage" cake, id politely tell them to get lost. But then a Court comes along and say youre discriminating against them, make the fucking cake, id be god damn pissed. And you just KNOW that if the court had ruled in favour of the gay couple, well then bigots all over would now be trolling cake shops asking them to make anti-gay marriage cakes and then forcing them to comply or get sued.

 

[Deception]

No it's not.

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Please educate me then. From my understanding, homophobia is having a prejudice against LGBTQ in a discriminatory manner but if someone were to say "You are fully within your right to be gay but I don't agree with it because of X" then is that considered homophobia?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Please educate me then. From my understanding, homophobia is having a prejudice against LGBTQ in a discriminatory manner but if someone were to say "You are fully within your right to gay but I don't agree with it because of X" then is that considered homophobia?

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Yes of course it is

 

[Kinsei]

Please educate me then. From my understanding, homophobia is having a prejudice against LGBTQ in a discriminatory manner but if someone were to say "You are fully within your right to gay but I don't agree with it because of X" then is that considered homophobia?

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Yes it would be.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

No. "Print it or fuck off" would be my judgement in that hypothetical scenario. If you're offering a service to the public, you should be required to do it for anyone who wants to use it within the confines of the law. Its not the same for every job (a personal service needs to be able to be turned down for any reason), but for printers, bakeries, that kind of thing? Absolutely.

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I understand what you're saying and agree with your sentiment, but can you think of this in reverse though? Say, for example, you were the baker and a customer came into your shop and asked you to make a cake with a message on it that said "Marriage is between one man and one woman", would you print it? It's perfectly legal to say that (Regardless of how ignorant or narrow minded), but (I assume) it sure as hell doesn't represent your views. Would you still make the cake, or would you decline?

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

In theory this would also happen int he us under freedom of speech, even if sexual orientation was a protected class. The same right would come into effect if a baker refused to write any other message they disagreed with, for or against any cause.

Compare this to say, refusing to make a cake period, which is something they normally sell to anyone. One is refusing to write a message, the other refusal to do business.

Still sucks that the baker is a bigot, but he's probably within his rights here. Granted I don't know the exact law for the country in question.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

Exactly, or on the opposite end of the same scale, if a perfectly nice, christian couple came into my fictional cake shop and said they wanted a "Ban Gay Marriage" cake, id politely tell them to get lost. But then a Court comes along and say youre discriminating against them, make the fucking cake, id be god damn pissed. And you just KNOW that if the court had ruled in favour of the gay couple, well then bigots all over would now be trolling cake shops asking them to make anti-gay marriage cakes and then forcing them to comply or get sued.

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I think the important distinction is that you couldn't tell them to "get lost" (because that would be discriminatory based on their views, in this case religious) but you could say that you would not print that particular message, but would do something else for them.

Granted I don't know the exact law for the country in question.

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It's fairly similar.

 

[Poltergust]

Please educate me then. From my understanding, homophobia is having a prejudice against LGBTQ in a discriminatory manner but if someone were to say "You are fully within your right to gay but I don't agree with it because of X" then is that considered homophobia?

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Absolutely. Homosexuality isn't something you "agree" or "disagree" with; it's something that exists. Period.

This is literally the argument for homosexuality being a "lifestyle choice", which is completely wrong.

 

[Westbahnhof]

I understand what you're saying and agree with your sentiment, but can you think of this in reverse though? Say, for example, you were the baker and a customer came into your shop and asked you to make a cake with a message on it that said "Marriage is between one man and one woman", would you print it? It's perfectly legal to say that (Regardless of how ignorant or narrow minded), but (I assume) it sure as hell doesn't represent your views. Would you still make the cake, or would you decline?

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I would grumnlingly, and I would ask them to please not come back. That's the price for that freedom, sadly. Of course, if its something that could be considered hate speech, I'd refuse.

...I'd probably get in a fight with them. Make the product, if the still want it, but I'm sure they wouldn't return.

 

[Tempy]

As long as the text is not an illegal expression (hate speech, incitement to violence, etc), you don't have to agree with it - just make the damn cake. Don't like it? Stop offering custom cake decoration services.

 

[Lundren]

Please educate me then. From my understanding, homophobia is having a prejudice against LGBTQ in a discriminatory manner but if someone were to say "You are fully within your right to gay but I don't agree with it because of X" then is that considered homophobia?

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I'm not gay, but I assume that since they are human beings, all they want from you is to be able to live their lives in peace and have the same rights as you.

What exactly is there to disagree with?

 

[Tregard]

Bakers aren't publishers, they had taken payment for the product and this whole thing is a fucking joke.

Living in NI we've had to put up with this shit for years now, further pushing the rhetoric that we are some overzealous hyperreligious cult. This whole country is in tatters, and shit like this just fuels the vocal minority who continue to set my homeland back.

Anytime I walk past Ashers in City Centre, I make sure to check if someone has tied a rainbow ribbon to their door. They usually have.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

I would grumnlingly, and I would ask them to please not come back. That's the price for that freedom, sadly. Of course, if its something that could be considered hate speech, I'd refuse.

...I'd probably get in a fight with them. Make the product, if the still want it, but I'm sure they wouldn't return.

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But you do understand many would associate your business with enabling and supporting that message? You see on this very forum the way people take a "with us or against us" stance. Your course of action would open a can of worms to the character of your business and yourself, in the eyes of many people.

(Not saying you're wrong, I'm just pointing out real consequences.)

 

[Illusion]

Eh. This is a fair technicality. I'm trying to imagine drawing/writing something I was uncomfortable with and someone suing. Like no, I am not writing Pineapple Doesn't Belong on Pizza, it fucking does. I'll write almost anything else.

 

[DontHateTheBacon]

Why does this always happen at bakeries?

 

[Lundren]

But you do understand many would associate your business with enabling and supporting that message? You see on this very forum the way people take a "with us or against us" stance. Your course of action would open a can of worms to the character of your business and yourself, for mang people.

(Not saying you're wrong, I'm just pointing out real consequences.)

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How would anyone know? This isn't something mass produced or advertised. You make a cake that you keep in a cooler so any customers who walk into the store can't see. Then you give the cake to the person who bought it and they take it home in a white box which usually doesn't have any logos or store names.

Why does this always happen at bakeries?

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Because they want their cake and to eat it too.

 

[Lundren]

Double post.