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DevilMayGuy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,572
Texas
Can you tell me the difference between Nintendo games and third parties game on handhelds? Does Nintendo have a super proprietary way of software design were only they have ability to create multi million selling titles of portable software? Or do developers/publishers in the West release utter trash and garbage on handhelds, to the point, were a Sony labeled it a "handheld gettho".
There is a long history of Nintendo software drastically outpacing third party software on their hardware.

In part that's because they have excellent software. Not sure why some huge third party franchises don't do as well on their hardware. There are also several third party franchises like Just Dance that perform very well on Nintendo HW.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
Can you tell me the difference between Nintendo games and third parties game on handhelds? Does Nintendo have a super proprietary way of software design were only they have ability to create multi million selling titles of portable software? Or do developers/publishers in the West release utter trash and garbage on handhelds, to the point, were a Sony labeled it a "handheld gettho".

Did Sony actually coin that phrase as you claim? I did not know that if so, seems like a stupid thing to say as a (once?) manufacturer of handhelds.
 

legend166

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,113
Right, the death of handhelds was a greatly exaggerated narrative throughout the industry. Weirdly it still seems to persist even at high corporate levels even.

Sure, it didn't die, but it suffered a huge contraction the likes of which the industry hasn't seen, well, ever.

In the seven years from 2004 - 2011, dedicated handhelds sold what, 230 million units or so? In the seven years after they've sold 85 million? One of the main manufacturers has completely left the market, and the other won't make dedicated handhelds any more.

Of course, it makes sense. The smartphone is one of the biggest technology game changes ever and certainly the biggest in computing since the PC. I really can't think of anything that could have possibly kept dedicated handheld sales that high. It was all about damage control.
 

Deleted member 2785

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,119
So what killed these two systems so badly?

Just like no simple explanation can be pointed to as to why something does well, the same goes for when things do poorly. Unless there's something REALLY obvious.

In the case of these two systems, I think there were some bad assumptions made on consumer wants. It happens.

How Xbox One performs against itself historically is more important.

Exactly. You figure this part out, the rest of the picture comes into clear focus.
 

Malakai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
565
Did Sony actually coin that phrase as you claim? I did not know that if so, seems like a stupid thing to say as a (once?) manufacturer of handhelds.

Below:

Kaz Hirai said:
"PSP will elevate portable entertainment out of the handheld gaming ghetto, and Sony is the only company that can do it,"

Source

Kinda rich given they will years latter go on to release the "Vita".
 
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Ryng™

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,641
Italy
You do have to wonder what has helped the Xbox One this January compared to every other year. The extra week can't be THE reason for its performance and being close to PS4 and Switch in units, and even the extra week of the holiday price cut doesn't tell the full story because revenue wouldn't be as close between the top 3 as it is. Something or multiple somethings kept sales afloat in January compared to previous years, where Xbox One would crater to ~150K.

PUBG is #2 in revenue on the Xbox chart, and being a $30 game means it sold a massive amount of units compared to the games below it, and was enough to hit #4 on the Overall chart. We are going to have to wait for February and potentially March to see where PUBG stands in chart placement and Xbox One in sales. February should be a great month for XB1 thanks to the 2 week price cut, but after that is a big question mark.


That means nothing. We have no idea how far it is from PS4 and Switch but that in itself doesn't matter. How Xbox One performs against itself historically is more important.

Interesting comment, and i totally agree with you. We don't have XB1 numbers yet, but is very likely the actual range for the console is 200-250K, which would be 160-200K in a 4 weeks month. Now, of course there is a big difference in 160K and 200K, but even in the probabily worst scenario, XB1 had the best MOM drop from December to January, if we esclude December 2013-January 2014 , which was still in the launch window, so better ignore that in this comparation.

In January 2015, XB1 had a MOM drop of 88.4%
In January 2016, XB1 had a MOM drop of 90.4%
In January 2017, XB1 had a MOM drop of 89.5%
In January 2018, The MOM drop is between 88.3% and 85.3% using a 4 weeks month, Most likely (this is probabily the right range, but we can't know this for sure yet)

XB1 selling less than Switch or PS4 right there is irrevelant, the real question should be, why this year the January drop was better than in the past years? And the argument of 5 weeks VS 4 weeks should not even be a thing, because i'm already using 4 weeks as a reference. In my opinion, the main reasons must be PUGS sales and XB1X, i don't see others reasons.

February will be indeed interesting for XB1. So far 2018 start as the best year for the console, i'm more than sure that this won't continue till the end, but the firsts months of the year are still gonna be important for the system. After this great January, February looks like a strong month thanks that PUBG bundle and the pricedrop, so let's see how it can do.
 

BishopLamont

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
377
I also think this year will have the highest variety in NPD winners ever since forever.
All three consoles winning at least 3 months and no console winning more than 6 could totally happen.


And just the possibility of this happening shows how well the 3 console maker doing right now.
Yeah i make that my bold prediction for the year...
switch will easily win 6+ months

i think xb1 will trail both switch/ps4 by alot if we are counting won months
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,905
Sure, it didn't die, but it suffered a huge contraction the likes of which the industry hasn't seen, well, ever.

In the seven years from 2004 - 2011, dedicated handhelds sold what, 230 million units or so? In the seven years after they've sold 85 million? One of the main manufacturers has completely left the market, and the other won't make dedicated handhelds any more.

Of course, it makes sense. The smartphone is one of the biggest technology game changes ever and certainly the biggest in computing since the PC. I really can't think of anything that could have possibly kept dedicated handheld sales that high. It was all about damage control.
Yes, it was similar to the massive drop for dedicated home consoles during those same years. Over 300m to under 150m. And one of the 3 dropped out of the market, sort of.
 

Deleted member 3017

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,653
Vita could have used microSD cards and it still would have failed. A bigger issue with Vita was a complete lack of internal flash memory for the user (at launch), but the system would have failed with that included as well.
 

Pablo Mesa

Banned
Nov 23, 2017
6,878
Vita could have used microSD cards and it still would have failed. A bigger issue with Vita was a complete lack of internal flash memory for the user (at launch), but the system would have failed with that included as well.
Normal memory card >lower entry price > more sales > more support from 3rd parties > More sales > more support from Sony itself
Vita missed the Thunder and let 3DS recover to never be able to catch up
 

Benji

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,114
You do have to wonder what has helped the Xbox One this January compared to every other year. The extra week can't be THE reason for its performance and being close to PS4 and Switch in units, and even the extra week of the holiday price cut doesn't tell the full story because revenue wouldn't be as close between the top 3 as it is. Something or multiple somethings kept sales afloat in January compared to previous years, where Xbox One would crater to ~150K.

PUBG is #2 in revenue on the Xbox chart, and being a $30 game means it sold a massive amount of units compared to the games below it, and was enough to hit #4 on the Overall chart. We are going to have to wait for February and potentially March to see where PUBG stands in chart placement and Xbox One in sales. February should be a great month for XB1 thanks to the 2 week price cut, but after that is a big question mark.


That means nothing. We have no idea how far it is from PS4 and Switch but that in itself doesn't matter. How Xbox One performs against itself historically is more important.

I respect you so much Welfare. Great head on your shoulders
 

CeroMiedo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,337
You do have to wonder what has helped the Xbox One this January compared to every other year. The extra week can't be THE reason for its performance and being close to PS4 and Switch in units, and even the extra week of the holiday price cut doesn't tell the full story because revenue wouldn't be as close between the top 3 as it is. Something or multiple somethings kept sales afloat in January compared to previous years, where Xbox One would crater to ~150K.

PUBG is #2 in revenue on the Xbox chart, and being a $30 game means it sold a massive amount of units compared to the games below it, and was enough to hit #4 on the Overall chart. We are going to have to wait for February and potentially March to see where PUBG stands in chart placement and Xbox One in sales. February should be a great month for XB1 thanks to the 2 week price cut, but after that is a big question mark.


That means nothing. We have no idea how far it is from PS4 and Switch but that in itself doesn't matter. How Xbox One performs against itself historically is more important.
I have a feeling some people really want the X1 version to bomb for some reason
 

Rainrir

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,337
You do have to wonder what has helped the Xbox One this January compared to every other year. The extra week can't be THE reason for its performance and being close to PS4 and Switch in units, and even the extra week of the holiday price cut doesn't tell the full story because revenue wouldn't be as close between the top 3 as it is. Something or multiple somethings kept sales afloat in January compared to previous years, where Xbox One would crater to ~150K.

PUBG is #2 in revenue on the Xbox chart, and being a $30 game means it sold a massive amount of units compared to the games below it, and was enough to hit #4 on the Overall chart. We are going to have to wait for February and potentially March to see where PUBG stands in chart placement and Xbox One in sales. February should be a great month for XB1 thanks to the 2 week price cut, but after that is a big question mark.


That means nothing. We have no idea how far it is from PS4 and Switch but that in itself doesn't matter. How Xbox One performs against itself historically is more important.

Do we really know how far apart the unit sales are? We only know revenue is close...

That said PUBG and MH combined probably did help Xbox do better than its historical baseline (assuming the 150k january base line is true).
 

bane833

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,530
I meam ViTa does had all need to succed, good hardware and it main competitor (3DS) had a god forsaken terrible release.
imo what doomed Vita from the start a and forever was the literal rip off Memory cards
Not really. Sony simply doesn´t have the brands that can really push a handheld device. Thirds weren´t really on board with it either regarding bigger projects that actually drive sales.
 

Henrik

Member
Jan 3, 2018
1,607
Not really. Sony simply doesn´t have the brands that can really push a handheld device. Thirds weren´t really on board with it either regarding bigger projects that actually drive sales.
This.

I remember Monster Hunter team criticised PS Vita for being overpriced as a handheld. And Vita didn't make games look any better so it was easier and cheaper to let MHP3rd team to do a MH on 3DS while main MH team after 4G started development on MHW for PS4/Xbox One which was planned in the early of 2013.

Soul Sacrifice was the reaction to Capcom's decision on MH for 3DS.
 

Jon Carter

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,746
Normal memory card >lower entry price > more sales > more support from 3rd parties > More sales > more support from Sony itself
Vita missed the Thunder and let 3DS recover to never be able to catch up

Look back at Sony's releases for the system and you'll see a much bigger reason why it failed. Uncharted Golden Abyss? ModNation Racers Road Trip? Little Deviants? Resistance Burning Skies? A deal with Activision resulting in Call of Duty Black Ops Declassified? A port of PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale? With those games as tentpole releases, a Nintendo handheld would have failed too. The legitimately good games—Wipeout 2048, Gravity Rush, Little Big Planet—were not gonna sell systems.
 

slavesnyder

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,127
SlaveSnyder Media Corp.
the success of that so-called monster hunter game on xbox is no big surprise. in fact, it's a typical example of a quick cash-in. we still remember the mourning of xbox owners after the release of horizon. even if the dinosaurs somehow looked very mechanical and unnatural, and the chick wore far too many clothes, there was a big thirst for a game where you can club huge stuff on the xbox family's systems. not surprisingly, a ruthless asian hole-in-the-wall just copied the basic idea, put together a surrogate game in a few weeks and gave it the completely uninspired name "monster hunter". so, once again, some cheap foreign shovelware profited from sony's iron fist of exclusivity in the long run.
 
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Celine

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,030
There is a long history of Nintendo software drastically outpacing third party software on their hardware.

In part that's because they have excellent software. Not sure why some huge third party franchises don't do as well on their hardware. There are also several third party franchises like Just Dance that perform very well on Nintendo HW.
To give a perspective:
Historically Nintendo published games almost always sell at least 30% of the whole software sales on Nintendo consoles.
This percentage is higher on the struggling 3DS and WiiU due to weaker third-party support and Nintendo shifting gradually resources priority from their home console (WiiU) to their handheld (3DS).

Videogame Console with interchangeable software (in million of units):
HmmkTXQ.jpg


Note: Virtual Boy total shipment is until March 1996. So may not be definitive as the system was discontinued in the fiscal year ending March 1997.

* What is referred as "First-party software" is actually an approximation calculated by summing every million-seller.
Since most Nintendo games sell at least 1 million units it should be a close enough approximation.

EDIT:
Note 2: Million seller lists for WiiU and 3DS are incomplete at the moment.
I wouldn't be surprised if 3DS was already at 50% and above as far as first-party/total software ratio.
 

Celine

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,030
I would greatly appreciate your input on the Wii U and the PS Vita (in the context of the discussion that was being had about factors that lead to successful launches for a game system); specifically, given that both systems seemed to be priced reasonably well, and had reasonably good launch lineups, what exactly was the reason for both faltering at retail in your opinion? For the Vita, I can assume that Sony not pushing its own weight behind the system (as Nintendo did with the 3DS once the 3DS flailed out of the game) may have been a contributing factor; with the Wii U, at least, it took until the end of 2014 before it became apparent Nintendo might be washing its hands off the system, and starting late 2013 through to the end of 2014, at least, Nintendo did release multiple big games for it with proper marketing pushes, and there was decent sentiment for the system amongst the press, at least.
You and I have different opinion on what a good launch lineup is (unless you weren't talking in the perspective of selling power).
 

Psycho_Mantis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,965
It's part of the equation but an AAA marketing campaign, global launch, double-gen graphics leap and QOL design decisions were likely equal factors in World's western success. It's not like these are simply the natural results of moving from 3DS to PS4/One alone. World is a global AAA success for sure, but it's also the first time a AAA global effort has been given to the franchise.

And it's also not like MH didn't already do better on 3DS than it did on Wii and PS2 in the west either.

Moving to console was the biggest factor though and even Capcom knows it.

Most of the factors that led to MHW success comes directly from the move to consoles:

1) big graphics leap
2) online functionality
3) being on platforms that are actually popular online
4) streaming
5) advertising with help from Sony

So yeah it's a pretty natural result from the move to handheld to next gen console.
 
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v_iHuGi

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,155
No Nintendo Console delivered a billion software sales? That´s surprising since Ps2 sold like 1.6 billion copies of software.

i thought Wii would be closer or even DS.

Anyone knows how much SW Ps1 or Ps3 sold? i know 360 was a monster SW wise so it probably hit the billion mark.
 

Jiggy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,267
wherever
Fiendcode didn't lie. How is the comparison disingenuous?

Because there's a clear difference between the current state of dedicated consoles and dedicated handhelds. One is thriving, the other is basically done once the 3DS stops selling, and the 3DS, despite its success, still declined roughly 50% from its predecessor. Rather than creating a dedicated handheld successor like they've been doing since the original Gameboy (which probably would have declined even further), Nintendo decided to switch things up (har har har)

The Vita declined so much from the PSP that Sony left the handheld business entirely.

The PS4 is nearing PS3 lifetime shipments, and I believe the XBO is still tracking ahead of the 360 in the US. But I might be wrong about that. And thanks to all the online subscriptions and GaaS, the market is also more profitable than ever.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,905
Lmao at trying to compare it to home consoles.

There's a reason why none of the three are making dedicated portable consoles.
No, but the best selling console can be played as a dedicated handheld. That's pretty notable.

Because there's a clear difference between the current state of dedicated consoles and dedicated handhelds. One is thriving, the other is basically done once the 3DS stops selling, and the 3DS, despite its success, still declined roughly 50% from its predecessor. Rather than creating a dedicated handheld successor like they've been doing since the original Gameboy (which probably would have declined even further), Nintendo decided to switch things up (har har har)

The Vita declined so much from the PSP that Sony left the handheld business entirely.

The PS4 is nearing PS3 lifetime shipments, and I believe the XBO is still tracking ahead of the 360 in the US. But I might be wrong about that. And thanks to all the online subscriptions and GaaS, the market is also more profitable than ever.
I'm not saying they're equal, I'm just pointing out both markets suffered historic contractions this cycle almost simultaneously. There's a similarity here even if the scale and reasons differ.

The hybrid model Nintendo took also arguably had more to do with their tv console line failing, it's a solution to long term for them to still serve both markets. Right now though from software to interface to marketing, Switch has effectively replaced their home console line while their handheld console line is co-existing alonside it and actually showing continued growth.

Also I believe Xbox One is now tracking behind 360 in the US. Likewise PS4 is also tracking well behind last gen's US 1st placer (Wii), although globally it should catch up in the end.

Moving to console was the biggest factor though and even Capcom knows it.

Most of the factors that led to MHW success comes directly from the move to consoles:

1) big graphics leap
2) online functionality
3) being on platforms that are actually popular online
4) streaming
5) advertising with help from Sony

So yeah it's a pretty natural result from the move to handheld to next gen console.
It may have kickstarted some of these other elements but a home console MH that looked and played like the handheld games, with a similar staggered release and AA promitional campaign, more likely would've sold similarly to them in the west (1-2m). Platform shift isn't the only element here and a platform shift alone probably wouldn't have moved the needle much everything else being equal.
 
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I meam ViTa does had all need to succed, good hardware and it main competitor (3DS) had a god forsaken terrible release.
imo what doomed Vita from the start a and forever was the literal rip off Memory cards
The memory cards didn't help one bit, but there were many issues that killed the system early on:
-the whole "console-quality gaming on the go" aspect fell apart pretty quickly for western games, when even the best of them in that regard with Uncharted: Golden Abyss still felt like a cheap direct-to-video sequel; the less said about games like Resistance, Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed, the better, and even supposed no-brainers like porting PS2 games over resulted in decidedly mixed results that could at times look and run worse than they did on their original hardware, let alone on the PS3
-somewhat related: they fixed one complaint about the PSP's controls (having two sticks and making them actual sticks) without addressing the other ones (still nowhere near enough buttons for games, and the "solution" of using the touchscreen and the rear touchpad were poor substitutes for traditional inputs, to say the least), which made the prospects for Remote Play dodgy at best when it didn't have enough inputs to play PS3 and PS4 games comfortably
-the lack of a universal cross-buy option made it close to impossible to recommend ever getting third party retail games on the Vita in lieu of their PS3 version, even in instances where they were priced higher on the latter
-Sony's western branches kinda just stopped caring about it at all shortly after launch, and though much of that has to do with all of their resources shifting towards producing content for the PS4, it left the Vita entirely without a focus and was forced to drift aimlessly

The system is great on paper, but the execution and follow-through revealed that they never had their heart in it. As I mentioned, the western branches were all too happy to cut bait early on and focus 100% on the PS4, which was the right decision to make in the long run, but it did mean that the major titles dried up really quickly, especially after the first year when they threw almost everything at it.
 

Deleted member 4021

Oct 25, 2017
1,707
I'm still not sure what Sony was thinking with the lack of inputs on the Vita. Nintendo did the same thing (the Circle Pad Pro is still a laughable add-on), but it's especially baffling when Sony really wanted to make remote play a thing.

At least with the Switch, we finally have a handheld with inputs on par with home consoles, and then some.