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TerminusFox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,851
From a recent Atlantic article on Pelosi:

There it is, folks.

This group trying to replace Pelosi thinks she passed a cap-and-trade bill not to mitigate climate change but to... make her members lose so she'd have less power?

Here you see the intellectual caliber of her opposition.

But NEW BLOOD.
Nancy got like 20 Democrats to END THEIR CAREERS for the ACA.

lol, people think they're good at your job? Ask how many of your co-workers today that you think you could convince to literally do something that could get them fired.

Woman is bona fide badass
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,121

I really hate when people don't actually have context for the things they argue:

What he's referring to is the "Volcker rule," The bill in question exempted banks with < $10,000,000,000 in assets from having t follow it.

The 33 house Democrats who voted for it didn't 'help' the bill pass. There was one Republican no vote, so it was through the house without a single Democrat's vote regardless. This is what playing politics looks like.

More importantly, the substance of that bill:

Under Trump the GOP wasn't enforcing that rule for large banks.

That rule was also hindering small regional banks, but it was worth having to keep the bigger banks in line.

Once the Trump administration stopped enforcing the rule on the larger banks all it was doing was harming the smaller banks who were still following the rule despite the lack of enforcement.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
It's presumptuous to declare what the motivations are in a simple sweeping vilification of all those that oppose Pelosi for speaker. It appears as nothing more than a slander meant to undermine any serious dialogue by questioning the motivation of participants. Disgusting, but this is the way some people seem to operate.
Maybe when you and others have proper arguments against Pelosi instead of the standard Fox News fed vague objections, people would take this seriously.

Until then, you have nothing but empty flowery language.
 

SkyOdin

Member
Apr 21, 2018
2,680
It's presumptuous to declare what the motivations are in a simple sweeping vilification of all those that oppose Pelosi for speaker. It appears as nothing more than a slander meant to undermine any serious dialogue by questioning the motivation of participants. Disgusting, but this is the way some people seem to operate.
The issue is that most of the critics of Pelosi are not offering much in the way of substantial or detailed criticism. The people who are calling for Pelosi to be replaced are generally using one of two arguments:
1) Republicans hate Pelosi and campaign against her.
and
2) Pelosi is out of touch/ineffective and we need new blood.

However, both of these arguments lack substance and aren't being backed up by facts. As far as the first argument goes, no one has supplied any solid evidence that Pelosi is actually hurting Democratic campaigns. On the contrary, evidence seems to be that the Republicans' attempts to use her as a boogeyman have fallen completely flat. As far as this criticism goes, it feels like the critics are presuming that the Republican propaganda works without actually confirming whether or not it actually has.

As far as the second point goes, Pelosi's critics haven't been able to point out any specific failures on Pelosi's part. If you want to criticize a specific vote or decision Pelosi has made, you are free to. However, most of the criticism directed at Pelosi actually seems to be directed at the electoral woes of the Democratic Party as a whole.

Good criticisms are supported by facts and solid arguments. If you think that Pelosi is a bad Speaker, feel free to say so. Just be prepared to support your opinions with facts. If you can't, you open up your motivations and reasons to be called into question. Bias is a real thing, and you need to examine your own biases when you enter into a discussion.
 
Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
Maybe when you and others have proper arguments against Pelosi instead of the standard Fox News fed vague objections, people would take this seriously.

Until then, you have nothing but empty flowery language.
And you appear to have only assumptions that allow you to feel comfortable with denigrating others. Perhaps, your opinions should be more well informed before voicing them.
My objection was not to Pelosi but to the treatment of members who oppose her as speaker.

Looking over the responsibilities of speaker she does appear to be the most qualified, if not the optimal. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a discussion where the ideas of others are engaged on their own merit instead of an opportunity for political activists to insult and degrade others.
 

Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
You know why. Everyone knows why.

But we're on a forum comprising mostly young, white men, and we have to dance around the issue to avoid offending them or making them question their unconscious biases.

The ones who say they want someone fiery who'll say FUCK DECORUM sort of give the game away. What group in society gets to act like that? Whose actions are excused when they act like an asshole?

It's certainly not 78-year-old women.


She is just as unpopular with white women. And she is also unpopular with people of color. She has an "optics" problem, if anything. Kinda like the condescending tone of the Pelosi Defense Force.
 
Last edited:
Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
The issue is that most of the critics of Pelosi are not offering much in the way of substantial or detailed criticism. The people who are calling for Pelosi to be replaced are generally using one of two arguments:
1) Republicans hate Pelosi and campaign against her.
and
2) Pelosi is out of touch/ineffective and we need new blood.

However, both of these arguments lack substance and aren't being backed up by facts. As far as the first argument goes, no one has supplied any solid evidence that Pelosi is actually hurting Democratic campaigns. On the contrary, evidence seems to be that the Republicans' attempts to use her as a boogeyman have fallen completely flat. As far as this criticism goes, it feels like the critics are presuming that the Republican propaganda works without actually confirming whether or not it actually has.

As far as the second point goes, Pelosi's critics haven't been able to point out any specific failures on Pelosi's part. If you want to criticize a specific vote or decision Pelosi has made, you are free to. However, most of the criticism directed at Pelosi actually seems to be directed at the electoral woes of the Democratic Party as a whole.

Good criticisms are supported by facts and solid arguments. If you think that Pelosi is a bad Speaker, feel free to say so. Just be prepared to support your opinions with facts. If you can't, you open up your motivations and reasons to be called into question. Bias is a real thing, and you need to examine your own biases when you enter into a discussion.
The main criticism that I have is based around leadership. Her slow response and once engaged seemingly equivocating tone to the family separation crisis from the zero tolerance policy this summer seemed out of touch with the gravity of the situation. It may have been that she was being careful in responding to it because she wanted to work with R moderates. Regardless, that leadership during the crisis was taken on by other Democrat members who took on the risk of being at the forefront of confronting it. They immediately clearly spoke out against it and got involved to help raise awareness and alleviate the crisis with the goal of stopping it.
Maybe she was there at first and it was a problem with the press. I remember Kamala and Beto being much more outspoken at the time. Although, neither are suitable or available for speaker as far as I know.
It was interesting to read that according to the Constitution the speaker doesn't have to be an elected member even if it has customarily been so. That does open up a lot of possibilities. Hillary?
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
I really hate when people don't actually have context for the things they argue:

What he's referring to is the "Volcker rule," The bill in question exempted banks with < $10,000,000,000 in assets from having t follow it.

The 33 house Democrats who voted for it didn't 'help' the bill pass. There was one Republican no vote, so it was through the house without a single Democrat's vote regardless. This is what playing politics looks like.

More importantly, the substance of that bill:

Under Trump the GOP wasn't enforcing that rule for large banks.

That rule was also hindering small regional banks, but it was worth having to keep the bigger banks in line.

Once the Trump administration stopped enforcing the rule on the larger banks all it was doing was harming the smaller banks who were still following the rule despite the lack of enforcement.

setting aside your specific assertions, you're confusing the vote on weakening Dodd-Frank earlier this year with a 2014 vote where the GOP was far short of a party-line majority, which is what these tweets are actually about. Wonder why you didn't realize that given that the vote breakdowns don't match.

anyway
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
The main criticism that I have is based around leadership. Her slow response and once engaged seemingly equivocating tone to the family separation crisis from the zero tolerance policy this summer seemed out of touch with the gravity of the situation. It may have been that she was being careful in responding to it because she wanted to work with R moderates. Regardless, that leadership during the crisis was taken on by other Democrat members who took on the risk of being at the forefront of confronting it. They immediately clearly spoke out against it and got involved to help raise awareness and alleviate the crisis with the goal of stopping it.
Maybe she was there at first and it was a problem with the press. I remember Kamala and Beto being much more outspoken at the time. Although, neither are suitable or available for speaker as far as I know.
It was interesting to read that according to the Constitution the speaker doesn't have to be an elected member even if it has customarily been so. That does open up a lot of possibilities. Hillary?

You even bringing up the 'doesn't have to be part of Congress' Part of the speakers job show how much of a fantasy all these arguments are.

There literally has never been a Speaker of the House that isn't also a sitting member of the House of Represenatives

And that isn't going to change when the Dems vote for the next Speaker.
 

Mr. Wonderful

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,295
Guys, it's as simple as this.

Nancy Pelosi is really good at her job. Even if you do not like her personally. Even if she can be seen an icon of Democratic pork barrel spending or corruption. Even if she also energizes Republicans.

We need someone who is incredibly good at their job to check the powers of the President.
 

BobLoblaw

This Guy Helps
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,302
Looks like Steny Hoyer has the votes right now. I completely forgot he was still in Congress. I'd still prefer someone a lot younger and more in touch with 2018, but at least he's someone new to the speakership.
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,729
Looks like Steny Hoyer has the votes right now. I completely forgot he was still in Congress. I'd still prefer someone a lot younger and more in touch with 2018, but at least he's someone new to the speakership.
The majority leader serves under the speaker.

He'd still be her lieutenant.

And he's been in leadership for over a decade. He was majority leader from 2007-11!

Please read next time.
 

BobLoblaw

This Guy Helps
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,302
Booo. Sorry. I'll go back and familiarize myself with the difference between speaker and majority leader. >.<
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,729
Booo. Sorry. I'll go back and familiarize myself with the difference between speaker and majority leader. >.<
No problem. You were probably confused by the fact that the minority leader actually leads the party, whereas the majority leader serves under someone else. It feels a little counterintuitive, I know!
 

Gobias-Ind

Member
Nov 22, 2017
4,025
setting aside your specific assertions, you're confusing the vote on weakening Dodd-Frank earlier this year with a 2014 vote where the GOP was far short of a party-line majority, which is what these tweets are actually about. Wonder why you didn't realize that given that the vote breakdowns don't match.

anyway


Ugh, there's no worse ally in politics than a rich white liberal. It's a shame the party isn't in position to move on.
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,729
Ugh, there's no worse ally in politics than a rich white liberal. It's a shame the party isn't in position to move on.
Do you people ever read anything longer than a YouTube comment?

The man angling to replace her is a conservative Blue Dog from Ohio.

And this "rich white liberal" plans to introduce a bill with automatic voter registration, public financing of elections, and a restoration of the Voting Rights Act. She's been one of the most progressive members of Congress for thirty years.
 

Gobias-Ind

Member
Nov 22, 2017
4,025
Do you people ever read anything longer than a YouTube comment?

The man angling to replace her is a conservative Blue Dog from Ohio.

And this "rich white liberal" plans to introduce a bill with automatic voter registration, public financing of elections, and a restoration of the Voting Rights Act. She's been one of the most progressive members of Congress for thirty years.

The bolded would be an example of the party not being ready to move on. The italicized is some bare minimum good. I hope they see that through. The underlined essentially reads as an indictment given how completely and totally ineffective progressives have been over that time frame.

Alright, I'm off to read some political theory on YouTube.com. Maybe I'll come out the other end as an extremely normal person sporting a politician as my avatar on a gaming forum lmao.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
"you don't have any reason to be against her!"
"She's for bipartisanship and cooperating with white supremacists, LGBTphobes and Cheeto Hitler."
"*crickets*"

I'll admit she's the best we have. The people behind this opposition are more right than she is and should sit down.

But you have to admit she's not as good as we should have, and she is not above critique. It's time to stop going high when they go low- they will always win that way. The ends of stopping bigotry are more important than the means of "following the system". Or at least they should be.
 

Autodidact

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,729
"She's for bipartisanship and cooperating with white supremacists, LGBTphobes and Cheeto Hitler."
Yes, she gave pro forma statements about bipartisanship. They all do. Mitch McConnell does the same thing. Do you believe him?

Look at her record. Find one instance when she's ceded ground to homophobes (she represents San Francisco!) or white supremacists. This is the woman who repealed Don't Ask, Don't Tell and passed the Mathew Shepard Hate Crimes Act. This is the woman who passed a public option. This is the woman who voted against ICE - so much for enabling white supremacists!

What in her actual record would lead you to think she'd give an inch to these people?
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
"you don't have any reason to be against her!"
"She's for bipartisanship and cooperating with white supremacists, LGBTphobes and Cheeto Hitler."
"*crickets*"

I'll admit she's the best we have. The people behind this opposition are more right than she is and should sit down.

But you have to admit she's not as good as we should have, and she is not above critique. It's time to stop going high when they go low- they will always win that way. The ends of stopping bigotry are more important than the means of "following the system". Or at least they should be.
In this past election, the upper-income white neighborhoods were the ones flipping, many unexpectedly because they were actually Romney->Trump. The rural "WWC" areas aren't. Dems got better margins in them, which helped in many statewide races, but it wasn't enough to turn them blue because they're so overwhelmingly conservative.

It turns out that the people who actually interact with people who don't look like them on a regular basis are far more likely to be willing to ally on these issues than the ones who don't.
 

Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
Yes, she gave pro forma statements about bipartisanship. They all do. Mitch McConnell does the same thing. Do you believe him?

Look at her record. Find one instance when she's ceded ground to homophobes (she represents San Francisco!) or white supremacists. This is the woman who repealed Don't Ask, Don't Tell and passed the Mathew Shepard Hate Crimes Act. This is the woman who passed a public option. This is the woman who voted against ICE - so much for enabling white supremacists!

What in her actual record would lead you to think she'd give an inch to these people?

Exactly.

I wish more people would understand this.
 
"you don't have any reason to be against her!"
"She's for bipartisanship and cooperating with white supremacists, LGBTphobes and Cheeto Hitler."
"*crickets*"
Not "crickets". That's bog-standard rhetoric about being committed to making the government work and appeal to the swing electorate (i.e., all those suburban voters who delivered them the majority). People complaining about that don't understand how politics works.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,729
Pelosi kinda has to be for "bipartisanship" as they don't have the other two parts needed to pass anything.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
"you don't have any reason to be against her!"
"She's for bipartisanship and cooperating with white supremacists, LGBTphobes and Cheeto Hitler."
"*crickets*"

This is the quote you're responding to, right?

"We will strive for bipartisanship in the belief that we have a responsibility to seek common ground where we can," Pelosi said during a packed press briefing just outside her office in the Capitol.

"Where we cannot, we must stand our ground," she continued. "But we must try."

Do you really read this and say "oh, she's clearly saying she loves Nazis and homophobes?"

Or did you, by chance, not read the full quote before passing judgement?
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Autodidact Sean C.
I would respond to your posts but given what was pointed out below, my opinion has changed.
This is the quote you're responding to, right?

Do you really read this and say "oh, she's clearly saying she loves Nazis and homophobes?"

Or did you, by chance, not read the full quote before passing judgement?
First off I never implied she "loves" Nazis and homophobes.

However you are correct I did not see the full quote. I am still not fond of the implication that there is anything at all we can agree on with the current Republicans in power that will not inevitably lead to people being hurt, because I truly feel there is not. But hopefully she can help the Democrats be good obstructionists.

Look. I'm a pansexual man. The friend of mine who retweeted the partial quote in order to criticize it is a black woman. I am terrified for myself and my friends with this current administration and its support in Congress. The mere idea that these 'liberal' 'progressive' leaders would give even an inch to people in power who'd rather us dead is fucking dreadful. Keeps me up at night, with all honesty.

Also
Kirblar
I uh. Never brought up the WWC. I've accepted they're a nonstarter. We're not getting their vote. Maybe their kids'll be different.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Look. I'm a pansexual man. The friend of mine who retweeted the partial quote in order to criticize it is a black woman. I am terrified for myself and my friends with this current administration and its support in Congress. The mere idea that these 'liberal' 'progressive' leaders would give even an inch to people in power who'd rather us dead is fucking dreadful. Keeps me up at night, with all honesty.

I'm a child of an immigrant myself. It is not unclear to me that they want to put us all in camps. I wasn't comfortable with the idea of Pelosi calling for bipartisanship either, until I read the full quote.

I agree that we should absolutely stay attentive and be ready to protest and push back if Pelosi gives anything away. But ultimately Pelosi's record thus far is clear, and it's a lot better than a lot of other Democrats. I think we should give her a chance to do the job she's proven to be good at. We can always replace her later!
 

brochiller

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,191
Not "crickets". That's bog-standard rhetoric about being committed to making the government work and appeal to the swing electorate (i.e., all those suburban voters who delivered them the majority). People complaining about that don't understand how politics works.

Exactly. If you want to enable a progressive agenda you first need to focus on gaining as much power as possible. Posturing is great, but it doesn't appeal to the majority of the electorate.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
I'm a child of an immigrant myself. It is not unclear to me that they want to put us all in camps. I wasn't comfortable with the idea of Pelosi calling for bipartisanship either, until I read the full quote.

I agree that we should absolutely stay attentive and be ready to protest and push back if Pelosi gives anything away. But ultimately Pelosi's record thus far is clear, and it's a lot better than a lot of other Democrats. I think we should give her a chance to do the job she's proven to be good at. We can always replace her later!
I'm glad you at least understand where my initial criticism of her was coming from, and I apologize if it at all came off as me implying otherwise. You're right in that her record is good right now. I do hope it continues, as I said.
 

MrMephistoX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,754
Hate that I have to caveat this in today's climate: I will never vote Republican again.

Now that I have that out of the way mandated and funded retirement age should be 55 in any industry. Let the young Turks change things before they get burned out by boomers telling them how to play the game.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,854
This doesn't have a chance of happening.

Democrats elected on opposing Pelosi are just lining up to do their song-and-dance as the biggest earner takes her position back once again.
 

Deleted member 11046

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
942
You know why. Everyone knows why.

But we're on a forum comprising mostly young, white men, and we have to dance around the issue to avoid offending them or making them question their unconscious biases.

The ones who say they want someone fiery who'll say FUCK DECORUM sort of give the game away. What group in society gets to act like that? Whose actions are excused when they act like an asshole?

It's certainly not 78-year-old women.
This entire topic frustrates me enough that I stopped paying attention around page ten, but I sure am glad I glanced back to see this post.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237


Also, I want to point out that a challenge from the right was inevitable when we relaxed our standards on what it meant to be democrat. Sure, we took the House, but now we have someone who isn't keen on social issues attempting to take the mantle.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,496
Dallas, TX
This is who those that oppose Pelosi want as the next speaker

Do people still wish for Pelosi to not be speaker?

This is why I think it would be best for Pelosi to step aside and actively shepherd her own succession, instead of letting a bunch of young, idealistic leftists get played by a handful of straggling Blue Dogs desperately clinging to relevancy. I hope Pelosi beats off any challenge from the right, and doesn't concede to them any ability to push right-wing policy through via discharge petitions, but it feels like there would've been a good way around this fight if Pelosi had been willing to step aside back when she lost the majority.
 

Veggen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,246
This is why I think it would be best for Pelosi to step aside and actively shepherd her own succession, instead of letting a bunch of young, idealistic leftists get played by a handful of straggling Blue Dogs desperately clinging to relevancy. I hope Pelosi beats off any challenge from the right, and doesn't concede to them any ability to push right-wing policy through via discharge petitions, but it feels like there would've been a good way around this fight if Pelosi had been willing to step aside back when she lost the majority.
It's naive to think any appointed successor wouldn't face the same if not more vitriol. The important part here is that these conservatives doesn't manage to push the party right.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
"We want a woman... who opposes LGBT rights."

Hard no.
I agree but blue dogs are gonna blue dog

It's naive to think any appointed successor wouldn't face the same if not more vitriol. The important part here is that these conservatives doesn't manage to push the party right.
Yup. This is the gamble we take when we elect conservative Democrats. They get the idea that they want to be in charge. You can never trust them.