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mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
This is incorrect. The 2.5GB/s and 5.5GB/s raw numbers don't account for differing compression approaches. But both platform holders have also given real-world average metrics including compression: 8-9GB/s for PS5, and 4.8GB/s for XSX. Note that the ratio is smaller here; that's presumably the effect of Microsoft's other implementations. But the performance is still at least 67% higher on PS5, up to 95%.
I wish everyone that's hanging on to BCPack being some magic solution that somehow makes XSX's SSD as fast as PS5's would read this post. We already know the SSD speed of both systems WITH compression applied, both manufacturers gave an average throughput. XSX indeed benefits from a higher boost from compression (100%, 2.4GB/s to 4.8GB/s), while PS5's is lower (64%, 5.5GB/s to 9GB/s). But nothing will make the XSX get closer than these numbers. Also, the XSX decompression chip has a theoretical max of around 6GB/s, while PS5's has a theoretical max of 22GB/s.

It's best if console warriors will just accept that XSX has the raw GPU power and memory bandwidth advantage, and PS5 has the SSD advantage.

Right... but if MS' compression is better... it can fit MORE data in the same amount of RAM. In your example Sony has filled up 3.1GB of RAM in 1 second, where as MS only has filled up 2.4GB... for the same amount of data. This gives MS more memory to work with. If they can fit more data in the same amount of RAM.. then they can reduce the amount of pressure streaming in new data from Storage to RAM.

It's not JUST about the throughput... but also how much data you can actually store in the RAM. Of course that's assuming Sony doesn't ALSO have more usable RAM available to developers.

I'm not saying that's going to make up for the ~2x difference between them... but if MS can store more data in RAM.. it will help mitigate some of the difference.
That's not how compression works, it's decompressed before it ever makes it to RAM. Now if you want to say XSX will have an advantage with lower game sizes, that's potentially true.
 
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gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
Right... but if MS' compression is better... it can fit MORE data in the same amount of RAM. In your example Sony has filled up 3.1GB of RAM in 1 second, where as MS only has filled up 2.4GB... for the same amount of data. This gives MS more memory to work with. If they can fit more data in the same amount of RAM.. then they can reduce the amount of pressure streaming in new data from Storage to RAM.

It's not JUST about the throughput... but also how much data you can actually store in the RAM. Of course that's assuming Sony doesn't ALSO have more usable RAM available to developers.

I'm not saying that's going to make up for the ~2x difference between them... but if MS can store more data in RAM.. it will help mitigate some of the difference.

Except for gpu-native compressed texture formats, or other data that can be read as is compressed, I'm not sure how much data you want to have compressed in ram? It's compressed for the package, the disc install, not RAM. You'd want it to be ready for use in RAM. Otherwise there'd be a significant access penalty - in which case you'd be treating your RAM more like storage in terms of additional access latency which seems a little besides the point.
 
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darthkarki

Banned
Feb 28, 2019
129
Right... but if MS' compression is better... it can fit MORE data in the same amount of RAM. In your example Sony has filled up 3.1GB of RAM in 1 second, where as MS only has filled up 2.4GB... for the same amount of data. This gives MS more memory to work with. If they can fit more data in the same amount of RAM.. then they can reduce the amount of pressure streaming in new data from Storage to RAM.

It's not JUST about the throughput... but also how much data you can actually store in the RAM. Of course that's assuming Sony doesn't ALSO have more usable RAM available to developers.

I'm not saying that's going to make up for the ~2x difference between them... but if MS can store more data in RAM.. it will help mitigate some of the difference.

Some interesting speculation about this very thing:

forum.beyond3d.com

Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

psorcerer said: There's a lot of confusion on why SSD is so important for next-gen and how it will change things. Here I will try to explain the main concepts. TL;DR fast SSD is a game changing feature, this generation will be fun to watch! It was working fine before, why do we even need that...

There's a lot of confusion on why SSD is so important for next-gen and how it will change things.
Here I will try to explain the main concepts.
TL;DR fast SSD is a game changing feature, this generation will be fun to watch!

It was working fine before, why do we even need that?
No, it wasn't fine, it was a giant PITA for anything other than small multiplayer maps or fighting games.
Let's talk some numbers. Unfortunately not many games have ever published their RAM pools and asset pools to the public, but some did.
Enter Killzone: Shadowfall Demo presentation.
We have roughly the following:

Type Approx. Size, % Approx. Size, MB
Textures 30% 1400
CPU working set 15% 700
GPU working set 25% 1200
Streaming pool 10% 500
Sounds 10% 450
Meshes 10% 450
Animations/Particles 1% 45

*These numbers are rounded sums of various much more detailed numbers presented in the article above.

We are interested in the "streaming pool" number here (but we will talk about others too)
We have ~500MB of data that is loaded as the demo progresses, on the fly.
The whole chunk of data that the game samples from (for that streaming process) is 1600MB.
The load speed of PS4 drive is (compressed data) <50MB/sec (uncompressed is <20MB/sec), i.e. it will take >30sec to load that at least.

It seems like it's not that big of a problem, and indeed for demo it is. But what about the game?
The game size is ~40GB, you have 6.5GB of usable RAM, you cannot load the whole game, even if you tried.
So what's left? We can either stream things in, or do a loading screen between each new section.
Let's try the easier approach: do a loading screen
We have 6.5GB of RAM, and the resident set is ~2GB from the table above (GPU + CPU working set). We need to load 4.5GB each time. It's 90 seconds, pretty annoying, but it's the best case. Any time you need to load things not sequentially, you will need to seek the drive and the time will increase.
You can't go back, as it will re-load things and - another loading screen.
You can't use more than 4.5GB assets in your whole gaming section, or you will need another loading screen.
It gets even more ridiculous if your levels are dynamic: left an item in previous zone? Load time will increase (item is not built into the gaming world, we load the world, then we seek for each item/item group on disk).
Remember Skyrim? Loading into each house? That's what will happen.
So, loading screens are easy, but if your game is not a linear, static, theme-park style attraction it gets ridiculous pretty fast.

How to we stream then?
We have a chunk of memory (remember 500Mb) that's reserved for streaming things from disk.
With our 50MB/sec speed we fill it up each 10 sec.
So, each 10 sec we can have a totally new data in RAM.
Let's do some metrics, for example: how much new shit we can show to the player in 1 min? Easy: 6*500 = 3GB
How much old shit player sees each minute? Easy again: 1400+450+450+45=~ 2.5GB
So we have a roughly 50/50 old to new shit on screen.
Reused monsters? assets? textures? NPCs? you name it. You have the 50/50 going on.

But PS4 has 6.5GB of RAM, we used only 4.5GB till now, what about other 2GB?
Excellent question!
The answer is: it goes to the old shit. Because if we increase the streaming buffer to 1.5GB it still does nothing to the 50MB/sec speed.
With the full 6.5GB we get to 6GB old vs 3GB new in 1 minute. Which is 2:1 old shit wins.

But what about 10 minutes?
Good, good. Here we go!
In 10 min we can get to 30GB new shit vs 6GB old.
And that's, my friends, how the games worked last gen.
You're as a player were introduced to the new gaming moments very gradually.
Or, there were some tricks they used: open doors animation.
Remember Uncharted with all the "let's open that heavy door for 15sec?" that's because new shit needs to load, players need to get to a new location, but we cannot load it fast.

So, what about SSDs then?
We will answer that later.
Let's ask something else.

What about 4K?
With 4K "GPU working set" will grow 4x, at least.
We are looking at 1200*4 = 4.8GB of GPU data.
CPU working set will also grow (everybody wants these better scripts and physics I presume?) but probably 2x only, to 700*2 = ~1.5GB
So overall the persistent memory will be well over 6GB, let's say 6.5GB.
That leaves us with ~5GB of free RAM in XSeX and ~8GB for PS5.

Stop, stop! Why PS5 has more RAM suddenly?
That's simple.
XSeX RAM is divided into two pools (logically, physically it's the same RAM): 10GB and 3.5GB.
GPU working set must use the 10GB pool (it's the memory set that absolutely needs the fast bandwidth).
So 10 - 4.8 = 5.2 which is ~5GB
CPU working set will use 3.5GB pool and we will have a spare 2GB there for other things.
We may load some low freq data there, like streaming meshes and stuff, but it will hard to use in each frame: accessing that data too frequently will lower the whole system bandwidth to 336Mb/sec.
That's why MSFT calls the 10GB pool "GPU optimal".

But what about PS5? It also has some RAM reserved for the system? It should be ~14GB usable!
Nope, sorry.
PS5 has a 5.5GB/sec flash drive. That typically loads 2GB in 0.27 sec. It's write speed is lower, but not less than 5.5GB/sec raw.
What PS5 can do, and I would be pretty surprised if Sony won't do it. Is to save the system image to the disk while the game is playing.
And thus give almost full 16GB of RAM to the game.
2GB system image will load into RAM in <1 sec (save 2GB game data to disk in 0.6 sec + load system from disk 0.3 sec). Why keep it resident?
But I'm on the safe side here. So it's ~14.5GB usable for PS5.

Hmm, essentially MSFT can do that too?
Yep, they can. The speeds will be less sexy but not more than ~3sec, I think.
Why don't they do it? Probably they rely on OS constantly running on the background for all the services it provides.
That's why I gave Sony 14.5GB.
But I have hard time understanding why 2.5GB is needed, all the background services can run on a much smaller RAM footprint just fine, and UI stuff can load on-demand.

Can we talk about SSD for games now?
Yup.
So, let's get to the numbers again.
For XSeX ~5GB of "free" RAM we can divide it into 2 parts: resident and streaming.
Why two? Because typically you cannot load shit into frame while frame is rendering.
GPU is so fast, that each time you ask GPU "what exact memory location are you reading now?" will slow it down to give you an answer.

But can you load things into other part while the first one is rendering?
Absolutely. You can switch "resident" and "streaming" part as much as you like, if it's fast enough.
Anyway, we got to 50/50 of "new shit" to "old shit" inside 1 second now!
2.5GB of resident + 2.5GB of streaming pool and it takes XSeX just 1 sec to completely reload the streaming part!
In 1 min we have 60:1 of new/old ratio!
Nice!

What about PS5 then? Is it just 2x faster and that's it?
Not really.
The whole 8GB of the RAM we have "free" can be a "streaming pool" on PS5.

But you said "we cannot load while frame is rendering"?
In XSeX, yes.
But in PS5 we have GPU cache scrubbers.
This is a piece of silicon inside the GPU that will reload our assets on the fly while GPU is rendering the frame.
It has full access to where and what GPU is reading right now (it's all in the GPU cache, hence "cache scrubber")
It will also never invalidate the whole cache (which can still lead to GPU "stall") but reload exactly the data that changed (I hope you've listened to that part of Cerny's talk very closely).

But it's free RAM size doesn't really matter, we still have 2:1 of old/new in one frame, because SSD is only 2x faster?
Yes, and no.
We do have only 2x faster rates (although the max rates are much higher for PS5: 22GB/sec vs 6GB/sec)
But the thing is, GPU can render from 8GB of game data. And XSeX - only from 2.5GB, do you remember that we cannot render from the "streaming" part while it loads?
So in any given scene, potentially, PS5 can have 2x to 3x more details/textures/assets than XSeX.
Yes, XSeX will render it faster, higher FPS or higher frame-buffer resolution (not both, perf difference is too low).
But the scene itself will be less detailed, have less artwork.

OMG, can MSFT do something about it?
Of course they will, and they do!
What are the XSeX advantages? More ALU power (FLOPS) more RT power, more CPU power.
What MSFT will do: rely heavily on this power advantage instead of the artwork: more procedural stuff, more ALU used for physics simulation (remember, RT and lighting is a physics simulation too, after all).
More compute and more complex shaders.

So what will be the end result?
It's pretty simple.
PS5: relies on more artwork and pushing more data through the system. Potentially 2x performance in that.
XSeX: relies more on in-frame calculations, procedural. Potentially 30% performance in that.
Who will win: dunno. There are pros and cons for each.
It will be a fun generation indeed. Much more fun than the previous one, for sure.

P.S.
adding the bonus rounds here:

But what the 60:1 new/old ratio will give us, gamers?
Did you ever wonder why none of the open world game ever featured a city?
Like real city, with blocks, apartments, etc.?
Because it would be boring as fuck.
You will enter each and every room to see almost exactly the same props and furniture.
Exactly the same NPCs. Doing same things.
With next get flash drive an apartment in the city can use the whole non-resident RAM space to render that.
And load a new one when you go from one door to another.
Think about it. 1sec 5.5Gb. Behind each door you can have a full new world. Completely different from the other.

But, but I swapped HDD to SSD in my PS4 and nothing changed! What's going on?
You see. Let's return to that Killzone example.
We have that 500MB streaming buffer and we load it with the new data in 10 sec, on HDD.
Now we swapped in SSD with 500MB/sec and we load that buffer in 1 sec!
But, guess what, game was not designed around that.
Game was designed to demand and use that data in next 10 sec, not right now.
So, no matter how fast your SSD is, it will not change anything.
I would say in a properly designed game it will even make things worse.
Why? Because you used 500MB/sec of memory bandwidth right now, for the data that won't be needed at all until game will require it 10 sec later, wasted 500Mb/sec for nothing instead of giving it to the GPU!

But how do I know if game was designed around SSD?
Simple. It will not work on HDD, like at all.
Like giving you 1fps, 0.2fps, complete slideshow.
Unless it behaves like that. It's not a game for SSD.

PS5 could end up having a lot more memory available for streaming data due to some of the custom designs.
 

Liabe Brave

Professionally Enhanced
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,672
Right... but if MS' compression is better... it can fit MORE data in the same amount of RAM. In your example Sony has filled up 3.1GB of RAM in 1 second, where as MS only has filled up 2.4GB... for the same amount of data. This gives MS more memory to work with.
But a developer on the PS5 has an option: instead of transferring 3.1GB more rapidly, they can intentionally run slower than the max speed, and spread out the transfer over a full second just like on XSX. Then RAM usage is identical over time. So if a developer does need to be thrifty with RAM, they can temporarily give up the PS5 speed advantage to accommodate. But the reverse is not true. In situations where RAM needs more data quickly--a scenario seemingly far more common, given we've heard repeatedly that the main I/O bottleneck this gen has been the HDD, not the RAM--XSX can't speed up nearly as much as PS5 can. Further, if most of the data in RAM is exchanged in very small pieces, PS5's higher speed will improve occupancy metrics.

In addition, BCPack isn't likely to be a huge differentiator to begin with. I believe it's about a 50% ratio, as opposed to perhaps 25% for Kraken. But remember that it only applies to texture data, which at a rough estimate might fill a third of the resident RAM when a game is running. So that third will be faster. But the other two-thirds will be slower, since XSX supports not Kraken but the less efficient zlib.

I think a bigger benefit to XSX memory efficiency will be SFS. This is where only the active portion of a texture is actually loaded at all. That has much more potential, I think, and something like it hasn't yet been confirmed for PS5. AMD and others have been working on such partially resident textures for years, though, so there's a good chance other implementations besides Microsoft's will be available.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
I think a bigger benefit to XSX memory efficiency will be SFS. This is where only the active portion of a texture is actually loaded at all. That has much more potential, I think, and something like it hasn't yet been confirmed for PS5. AMD and others have been working on such partially resident textures for years, though, so there's a good chance other implementations besides Microsoft's will be available.
Based on https://github.com/microsoft/DirectX-Specs/blob/master/d3d/SamplerFeedback.md it appears to be available on multiple GPU's and shouldn't be exclusive to XSX. It's similar to PRT, and is sometimes known as PRT+ apparently.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
All compression efficiencies are already included in the real world numbers. Remember, the actual throughput of the physical hardware is 5.5 or 2.4GB/s. More than that is literally impossible to shove down the connection. Therefore, when metrics are given that "exceed" that, it's meant to indicate what size the data would be if uncompressed. That is, 4.8GB of data comes off the SSD, is compressed down to 2.4GB, and passes to RAM in one second. On PS5 the compression seems to be less efficient, so 4.8GB off SSD becomes ~3.1GB to pass to RAM. However, it can also move faster through the pipes, so the lesser compression is more than made up for, and the same 4.8GB is transferred more quickly.
Errr... sure you aren't making a small error there?

I was under the impression that 2.4GB/s and 5.5GB/s represent raw data throughput. So yes on the XSX 4.8GB/s of compressed data is passed through that 2.4GB/s pipe and the PS5 its ~8GB/s worth of data that is compressed and passed through that 5.5GB/s pipe.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
Errr... sure you aren't making a small error there?

I was under the impression that 2.4GB/s and 5.5GB/s represent raw data throughput. So yes on the XSX 4.8GB/s of compressed data is passed through that 2.4GB/s pipe and the PS5 its ~8GB/s worth of data that is compressed and passed through that 5.5GB/s pipe.
Yeah I think that's what they were saying, just in an awkward way maybe? The PS5 number is 8-9GB/s though, to be 100% accurate. :)
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,066
one frame is 33 milliseconds or 16.6. You are not teleporting on one frame with 100% different data from the SSD in memory on PS5 either.
Ignoring latency constraints(assuming you spend full 33ms on a read), both consoles should have enough throughput to swap an entire frame worth of data in at 30fps.

You don't know that. You don't know what BCPack could possibly do.
Lossless compression isn't magic - there are mathematical limitations to whatever it 'can do'. Also what I recall of BCPack is a LZ derivative with splitting color/LUT of DXT data into separate blocks, something you can ostensibly emulate with any compressor.
 
Mar 22, 2020
87
Ignoring latency constraints(assuming you spend full 33ms on a read), both consoles should have enough throughput to swap an entire frame worth of data in at 30fps.
It's not so much about throughput than it is about latency, a few 100ns to a few ms is too much even though the SSD can ramp up if the access isn't completely random and the queue is fairly small. This is TLC NAND, not 3D XPoint we're talking about. Big progress on bandwidth, yes, big progress on latency, absolutely not, this is not DRAM class storage.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,657
Everything you just typed, is wrong. Please inform yourself better. 'GPU instruments'. What?
lol

fetchimage


Every start to a generation the same kinda people crawl out making all kinds of shit up and making themselves believe they're knowledgeable about a subject they don't have a clue about.
 
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gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,127
It's not so much about throughput than it is about latency, a few 100ns to a few ms is too much even though the SSD can ramp up if the access isn't completely random and the queue is fairly small. This is TLC NAND, not 3D XPoint we're talking about. Big progress on bandwidth, yes, big progress on latency, absolutely not, this is not DRAM class storage.

Faf is a dev i sure he took all of that into mind before saying that .
Still i really enjoying you post so far since always good get more info about how things work .
 
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Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,221
Was wondering if maybe in someone in this thread could shed some light on the relationship between the power draws and graphics that Cerny was talking about, this was my post

I'm still trying to get my head around the relationship of how much power the chip uses and why something like GOW would push so much wattage vs Horizon and how that will be adjusted for PS5. Cerny states you can guess the high power draws on PS4 by the loud fan, and something like Horizon's flat map works up the fans more than its gameplay. I can remember moments in GOW and Spider-Man that sent it into overdrive as well, but it doesnt seem to be consistent as to what is causing the higher draws (GOW I would suspect streaming). I wonder where the general titles sit on that scale of quiet to loud, and how many titles would sit at the higher GOW side of the spectrum. These would represent the situations in which we might see downclocks, but I would think planning for the very far end of that spectrum where you get a drop to maybe 10.21TF at the lowest might be smart if they can keep devs from drawing too much power to begin with while normalizing the cooling level and sound. I also wonder what this would mean for their power supply solution.
 
Mar 22, 2020
87
Faf is a dev i sure he took all of that into mind before saying that .
I'd advise to read my recent (long) post here about bottlenecks for more on that matter. While you could definitely see stutters or large frame drops on old HDD systems, and certainly some low frametimes when entering a new area on older gaming systems, a whole memory hierarchy and caching exists to make sure high density storage isn't a bottleneck. In fact, if this was true, you would see a measurable difference in framerate when:
  • on PC, swapping your HDD for an 6GB/s SATA drive SSD in prolonged sessions within a similar area, moving very fast (maybe seconds after loading you'd see spikes on the HDD, nothing on the SSD)
  • on PC, swapping your HDD or SATA SSD for an NVMe SSD on PCIe 3.0 4x (again, this is the law of diminishing returns)
  • on PC, setting up RAID 0 of PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives on a CPU with enough Gen 4 lanes. You'd reach multiple dozens of GB/s in bandwidth, but latency would be similar. You could also keep most of the assets in RAM or in 3D XPoint memory.
For all of the above, you'd also be using peak performance CPU and GPU, and unless you'd be using that, it would make the delta smaller.

The PS5 to XboX SSD difference shouldn't translate in any measurable, and perceptible differences in frametimes, at any percentile. Now Sony's coherency engine ASICs and cache scrubbers working with SSD, RAM and VRAM to avoid overutilizing VRAM ? Sure, they will prevent RDNA2 stalls and help a lot. But we're talking ASICs and GPU bottlenecks, nothing related to SSDs. Evidence points to Microsoft also having their own equivalent feature.
 

Liabe Brave

Professionally Enhanced
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,672
Errr... sure you aren't making a small error there?

I was under the impression that 2.4GB/s and 5.5GB/s represent raw data throughput. So yes on the XSX 4.8GB/s of compressed data is passed through that 2.4GB/s pipe and the PS5 its ~8GB/s worth of data that is compressed and passed through that 5.5GB/s pipe.
I was responding to claims about Microsoft's better compression providing advantage. So to isolate the effect of compression, rather than compare how much data each solution could pass in a second, I held the amount of uncompressed data constant and showed how fast each layout could transfer the compressed amount. So 4.8GB for XSX would compress to 2.4GB, and be moved in 1 second. The same 4.8GB for PS5 would only compress to ~3.1GB. But it would move in about .6 seconds. That's why I said the faster interface more than makes up for the lesser compression, and "the same 4.8GB is transferred more quickly."

Of course, a PS5 dev also has the option to move more data in the same amount of time, as I discussed in my next post. My belief is that's what they'll choose, most of the time.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,127
I'd advise to read my recent (long) post here about bottlenecks for more on that matter. While you could definitely see stutters or large frame drops on old HDD systems, and certainly some low frametimes when entering a new area on older gaming systems, a whole memory hierarchy and caching exists to make sure high density storage isn't a bottleneck. In fact, if this was true, you would see a measurable difference in framerate when:
  • on PC, swapping your HDD for an 6GB/s SATA drive SSD in prolonged sessions within a similar area, moving very fast (maybe seconds after loading you'd see spikes on the HDD, nothing on the SSD)
  • on PC, swapping your HDD or SATA SSD for an NVMe SSD on PCIe 3.0 4x (again, this is the law of diminishing returns)
  • on PC, setting up RAID 0 of PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives on a CPU with enough Gen 4 lanes. You'd reach multiple dozens of GB/s in bandwidth, but latency would be similar. You could also keep most of the assets in RAM or in 3D XPoint memory.
For all of the above, you'd also be using peak performance CPU and GPU, and unless you'd be using that, it would make the delta smaller.

The PS5 to XboX SSD difference shouldn't translate in any measurable, and perceptible differences in frametimes, at any percentile. Now Sony's coherency engine ASICs and cache scrubbers working with SSD, RAM and VRAM to avoid overutilizing VRAM ? Sure, they will prevent RDNA2 stalls and help a lot. But we're talking ASICs and GPU bottlenecks, nothing related to SSDs. Evidence points to Microsoft also having their own equivalent feature.


I am not really understand your point .
Games on PC are not made with SSD in mind .
So that not really going to tell you much about up coming software where engines build around that .
 
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Mar 22, 2020
87
Was wondering if maybe in someone in this thread could shed some light on the relationship between the power draws and graphics that Cerny was talking about, this was my post
I made some points about it in my longer post here. For the part on game x and game y pulling more power, it is simply because every workload is different. Like you mentioned, maybe Horizon draws a lot of long-distance geometry when on open areas, maybe GOW just uses very detailed assets and relatively large textures while also needing high refresh rates on rather complex geometry.
AMD firmware drives the APU based on thermals (GDDR6, CPU, GPU and VRM) as well as power thresholds, overcurrent protection. Smartshift detects overutilization of either the iGPU or the CPU and lowers the underutilized device's frequency, lifts up the other. A frequency "boost" is a not sustainable frequency rise for an uncertain duration. Boost till thermal are too high, a certain duration passed, or something else happens.
From what I can gather on my larger post, the CPU is likely drawing less than 100W of power, probably 60W when on really conservative clocks and no SMT is on (-15% due to SMT, -10% from TSMC N7P, -x% from lowered clocks to a more efficient part of the f/v curve).
This means the GDDR6 ICs and the GPU are probably drawing up to 200W of power, based on another finding from r/AMD that the XboX PSU is rated for 255W+60W (likely 255W is system-wide).
In modern systems, management firmware makes sure the device runs on the lowest stable voltage for the highest sustainable frequency in current conditions.
  • Find the current temperature of any device on the chip, select a given voltage and frequency for the given temperature.
  • This means as temperature goes up, boosts clocks get lower, above 80/90°C you will throttle back on boost and maybe stock clocks.
  • Constantly check for power limit, if they are reached, lower clocks and voltages for the APU
  • Check for VRM current and voltage limits, if reached, go in overvoltage and overcurrent protection = shutdown.
  • If tjunction exceeds 95°C for GPU, 105°C for the CPU, throttle to a few hundred MHz clocks, if not sustainable go in overtemperature protection.
Spoilers though, Microsoft's APU cannot possibly hold 1825MHz on 52CUs, it's insane.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
I'd advise to read my recent (long) post here about bottlenecks for more on that matter. While you could definitely see stutters or large frame drops on old HDD systems, and certainly some low frametimes when entering a new area on older gaming systems, a whole memory hierarchy and caching exists to make sure high density storage isn't a bottleneck. In fact, if this was true, you would see a measurable difference in framerate when:
  • on PC, swapping your HDD for an 6GB/s SATA drive SSD in prolonged sessions within a similar area, moving very fast (maybe seconds after loading you'd see spikes on the HDD, nothing on the SSD)
  • on PC, swapping your HDD or SATA SSD for an NVMe SSD on PCIe 3.0 4x (again, this is the law of diminishing returns)
  • on PC, setting up RAID 0 of PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives on a CPU with enough Gen 4 lanes. You'd reach multiple dozens of GB/s in bandwidth, but latency would be similar. You could also keep most of the assets in RAM or in 3D XPoint memory.
For all of the above, you'd also be using peak performance CPU and GPU, and unless you'd be using that, it would make the delta smaller.

The PS5 to XboX SSD difference shouldn't translate in any measurable, and perceptible differences in frametimes, at any percentile. Now Sony's coherency engine ASICs and cache scrubbers working with SSD, RAM and VRAM to avoid overutilizing VRAM ? Sure, they will prevent RDNA2 stalls and help a lot. But we're talking ASICs and GPU bottlenecks, nothing related to SSDs. Evidence points to Microsoft also having their own equivalent feature.
Sampler feedback isn't really an equivalent feature to Sony's custom hardware I/O, and the hardware needed for the feature is most likely present on both consoles. Even the website you posted mentions multiple GPU's currently should support the feature.
 

ShaDowDaNca

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,647
I see the PS5 having the edge with it's 16GB's @448gb/s ram vs the split 10GB's @560gb/s | 6GB's @336gb/s of XSX.
 
Mar 22, 2020
87
I am not really understand your point .
Games on PC are not made with SSD in mind .
So that not really going to tell you much about up coming software where engines build around that .
As a hardware engineer I can definitely tell you this is not the case.
It sounds counter intuitive, but HDDs also were not causing perceptible frametime differences for as long as I can remember. SSDs came out in around 2010, so I'm not quite sure what to make of the statement PC games are not made with SSD in mind
  • either it means "games are not optimized" for SSDs, which would mean going for faster SSDs (on consoles too), or 3D XPoint drives or even going straight up for a RAM drive would see performance gains. It's not the case, hence bottlenecks come from the memory wall, and limits of what GPUs can achieve.
  • An interesting experiment would be to try and raise all clocks from the GPU and CPU under LN2, also raise memory frequency to stable levels, then lower all levels of detail, then lowering rendering resolution to under single digit resolutions. I'm not even convinced we would be able to measure a high density storage bottleneck if it all works out. Because even an HDD has pretty efficient caching so we would rely on it. Maybe even PCIe speeds should be toned down, and VRAM/DRAM capacities lowered as well.
  • so if you mean "we're not yet capable of making use of such a thing" then why would a system not optimized for it show absolutely no scaling when tweaked ? Sony's ASICs and cache scrubbers modifications to RDNA2 might make a difference, but they're hardly part of the SSD and are not specific to Sony.
Sampler feedback isn't really an equivalent feature to Sony's custom hardware I/O, and the hardware needed for the feature is most likely present on both consoles. Even the website you posted mentions multiple GPU's currently should support the feature.
Yes, that is my point actually.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
As a hardware engineer I can definitely tell you this is not the case.
It sounds counter intuitive, but HDDs also were not causing perceptible frametime differences for as long as I can remember. SSDs came out in around 2010, so I'm not quite sure what to make of the statement PC games are not made with SSD in mind
  • either it means "games are not optimized" for SSDs, which would mean going for faster SSDs (on consoles too), or 3D XPoint drives or even going straight up for a RAM drive would see performance gains. It's not the case, hence bottlenecks come from the memory wall, and limits of what GPUs can achieve.
  • An interesting experiment would be to try and raise all clocks from the GPU and CPU under LN2, also raise memory frequency to stable levels, then lower all levels of detail, then lowering rendering resolution to under single digit resolutions. I'm not even convinced we would be able to measure a high density storage bottleneck if it all works out. Because even an HDD has pretty efficient caching so we would rely on it. Maybe even PCIe speeds should be toned down, and VRAM/DRAM capacities lowered as well.
  • so if you mean "we're not yet capable of making use of such a thing" then why would a system not optimized for it show absolutely no scaling when tweaked ? Sony's ASICs and cache scrubbers modifications to RDNA2 might make a difference, but they're hardly part of the SSD and are not specific to Sony.

Yes, that is my point actually.
Gotcha, I didn't quite read your post correctly and thought you were saying SFS was an XSX exclusive feature, my bad. :)

Edit: Would you agree that PC's have a much larger overhead while reading from SSD's than these consoles will? I know AC: Odyssey had ridiculous CPU usage when being played from a SSD because the strain on the CPU from having to move that much data on PC. (There were benchmarks actually showing less CPU usage if you played from a HDD vs SSD using the exact same hardware otherwise)

PC's don't have hardware decompression units, they currently don't have the DirectStorage API to reduce CPU usage, and they don't have the PS5's other custom I/O hardware, which translates into either massive CPU usage from trying to process that much data or a much lower amount of data being throughput due to lack of compression.

So I think it's fair to say games aren't built for SSD's currently, PC's literally can't currently handle the throughput these consoles will allow for.
 
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gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,127
As a hardware engineer I can definitely tell you this is not the case.
It sounds counter intuitive, but HDDs also were not causing perceptible frametime differences for as long as I can remember. SSDs came out in around 2010, so I'm not quite sure what to make of the statement PC games are not made with SSD in mind
  • either it means "games are not optimized" for SSDs, which would mean going for faster SSDs (on consoles too), or 3D XPoint drives or even going straight up for a RAM drive would see performance gains. It's not the case, hence bottlenecks come from the memory wall, and limits of what GPUs can achieve.
  • An interesting experiment would be to try and raise all clocks from the GPU and CPU under LN2, also raise memory frequency to stable levels, then lower all levels of detail, then lowering rendering resolution to under single digit resolutions. I'm not even convinced we would be able to measure a high density storage bottleneck if it all works out. Because even an HDD has pretty efficient caching so we would rely on it. Maybe even PCIe speeds should be toned down, and VRAM/DRAM capacities lowered as well.
  • so if you mean "we're not yet capable of making use of such a thing" then why would a system not optimized for it show absolutely no scaling when tweaked ? Sony's ASICs and cache scrubbers modifications to RDNA2 might make a difference, but they're hardly part of the SSD and are not specific to Sony.

Well the bottle neck is getting data from the HDD into the ram when streaming .
I was asking this dev how ram management will change and this is what he had to say .

"Again, this is another thing that is hard to imagine. I've only worked on consoles as far back as PS3/360 generation up to current boxes, and all of them have been so incredibly slow to fill your RAM that you are designing around the streaming and loading bottlenecks. When Mark was talking about having a drive so fast that you could just clear your RAM and in a blink of an eye and load a whole 10+ GB of assets in there my mind was racing. His example of "no need for a giant canyon corridor to load the next vista" is entirely appropriate. It's one of those things that may not even be obvious to the player the way a load screen comparison would be. World and game design will just change in a qualitative way that is not easily measurable."
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,073
I was responding to claims about Microsoft's better compression providing advantage. So to isolate the effect of compression, rather than compare how much data each solution could pass in a second, I held the amount of uncompressed data constant and showed how fast each layout could transfer the compressed amount. So 4.8GB for XSX would compress to 2.4GB, and be moved in 1 second. The same 4.8GB for PS5 would only compress to ~3.1GB. But it would move in about .6 seconds. That's why I said the faster interface more than makes up for the lesser compression, and "the same 4.8GB is transferred more quickly."

Of course, a PS5 dev also has the option to move more data in the same amount of time, as I discussed in my next post. My belief is that's what they'll choose, most of the time.

Kinda wish MS had said 97% or something for their compression gains. 100% sounds like it might be a perfect scenario number that they might not ever quite hit.
 
Mar 22, 2020
87
Well the bottle neck is getting data from the HDD into the ram when streaming .
I was asking this dev how ram management will change and this is what he had to say .

"Dev talk."
Okay so we can agree on the fact that loading times and the whole way devs design around them is gonna change. I'm honestly unsure if a game would saturate the XboX's NVMe in a similar case.

I don't think your post is related to our previous ones ? I'm trying very hard to find a use for it outside that specific use case, as in actually performance during gameplay.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,127
Okay so we can agree on the fact that loading times and the whole way devs design around them is gonna change. I'm trying very hard to find a use for it outside that specific use case, as in actually performance during gameplay. I'm honestly unsure if a game would saturate the XboX's NVMe in a similar case.

I don'tvthink

Think it will take a good while before we see that but given some time you know devs will find a way to push things.
Happen every gen so it going to be interesting to see what they come up with now that they get SSD to play around with , same can be said for RT.
 
Mar 22, 2020
87
Think it will take a good while before we see that but given some time you know devs will find a way to push things.
Happen every gen so it going to be interesting to see what they come up with now that they get SSD to play around with , same can be said for RT.
Are you actually arguing that SSDs are the bottleneck for framerate / gameplay performance this generation and the next ? Not discussing loading times, level design and such this time around. I just need to make sure this isn't a big quiproquo.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
Are you actually arguing that SSDs are the bottleneck for framerate / gameplay performance this generation and the next ? Not discussing loading times, level design and such this time around. I just need to make sure this isn't a big quiproquo.
Can you reply to the edit I made above?

Would you agree that PC's have a much larger overhead while reading from SSD's than these consoles will? I know AC: Odyssey had ridiculous CPU usage when being played from a SSD because the strain on the CPU from having to move that much data on PC. (There were benchmarks actually showing less CPU usage if you played from a HDD vs SSD using the exact same hardware otherwise)

PC's don't have hardware decompression units, they currently don't have the DirectStorage API to reduce CPU usage, and they don't have the PS5's other custom I/O hardware, which translates into either massive CPU usage from trying to process that much data or a much lower amount of data being throughput due to lack of compression.

So I think it's fair to say games aren't built for SSD's currently, PC's literally can't currently handle the throughput these consoles will allow for.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I would really love to know why Microsoft went with split RAM. Does it have to do with how their OS is designed? Is it a cost issue? It's pretty bizarre.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
I would really love to know why Microsoft went with split RAM. Does it have to do with how their OS is designed? Is it a cost issue? It's pretty bizarre.
They had a bandwidth target and went with the lowest cost way to hit it most likely. I'd be surprised it if was an issue at any point honestly (other than potentially being a little harder on developers).
 

Dekim

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,301
So, one possible bottleneck that I've read that isn't being talked about much is memory bandwidth. Those who are far more technically minded than me are concerned that 448GB/s may not be enough. It seems Sony decided on 14-Gbps GDDR6 chips for cost reasons. Memory and clock rate are the only things that can realistically change at this point. How late can Sony wait if they want to change out the 14-Gbps chip to more speedy 16-Gbps or 18-Gbps chips?
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,127
I would really love to know why Microsoft went with split RAM. Does it have to do with how their OS is designed? Is it a cost issue? It's pretty bizarre.

Cost is likely the biggest factor or heat .
The system is great but you can see it not going to be cheap and ram is one of the few things they can save on.
Both MS and Sony could use better ram chips but they cost more.
 

space_nut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,306
NJ
I would really love to know why Microsoft went with split RAM. Does it have to do with how their OS is designed? Is it a cost issue? It's pretty bizarre.

It's a single pool of ram of gddr6. Just different modules for speed. 10gb at 560gb/s for gpu solely (insanely high) and 3.5 at ~340gb/s for cpu/gpu at devs discretion. Really smart design keeps heat down I'm sure
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,127
They had a bandwidth target and went with the lowest cost way to hit it most likely. I'd be surprised it if was an issue at any point honestly (other than potentially being a little harder on developers).

It funny , this gen we saw a really good ram jump.
This up coming gen will be the smallest jump in ram ever and that will not change in the future either .
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
So, one possible bottleneck that I've read that isn't being talked about much is memory bandwidth. Those who are far more technically minded than me are concerned that 448GB/s may not be enough. It seems Sony decided on 14-Gbps GDDR6 chips for cost reasons. Memory and clock rate are the only things that can realistically change at this point. How late can Sony wait if they want to change out the 14-Gbps chip to more speedy 16-Gbps or 18-Gbps chips?
They chose 14gbps due to cost, most likely. 16gbps isn't widely available and 18gbps is "unicorn" territory. If there's any truth to that bloomberg $450 BOM territory, it's likely the memory they were worried about.
 

Chapo

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
194
Star Citizen as an example is a game with only SSD in mind and is pretty much unplayable with a normal HDD.



Star Citizen is a game that has been 9 years in development and $250 million deep.

I don't think your common multiplat or even first party game will be designed like this.

Who knows..
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
So, one possible bottleneck that I've read that isn't being talked about much is memory bandwidth. Those who are far more technically minded than me are concerned that 448GB/s may not be enough. It seems Sony decided on 14-Gbps GDDR6 chips for cost reasons. Memory and clock rate are the only things that can realistically change at this point. How late can Sony wait if they want to change out the 14-Gbps chip to more speedy 16-Gbps or 18-Gbps chips?
Probably like 3 months before release, that's when volume production should start. Well, technically that kinda change would have to be made a few months before that. Basically if by June/July they haven't changed it then they wouldn' be able to change it.

I believe they wouldn't, everything tells me they wouldn't... but I hope they do.
 
Mar 22, 2020
87
I'm replying to your edit:
Edit: Would you agree that PC's have a much larger overhead while reading from SSD's than these consoles will? I know AC: Odyssey had ridiculous CPU usage when being played from a SSD because the strain on the CPU from having to move that much data on PC. (There were benchmarks actually showing less CPU usage if you played from a HDD vs SSD using the exact same hardware otherwise)

PC's don't have hardware decompression units, they currently don't have the DirectStorage API to reduce CPU usage, and they don't have the PS5's other custom I/O hardware, which translates into either massive CPU usage from trying to process that much data or a much lower amount of data being throughput due to lack of compression.

So I think it's fair to say games aren't built for SSD's currently, PC's literally can't currently handle the throughput these consoles will allow for.
I can agree PC can't beat a dedicated ASIC, so yeah the overhead is stronger in that case. It's unlikely I think, that it would cause performance issues. We can offer the additional CPU horsepower to handle the SSD, whereas these consoles don't have the power density to spare. Then I'm puzzled about finding a performance Delta between the two. Is it gonna matter considering both have ASICs and PCIe 4.0 NVMe drives ?
I've never heard of those AC Odyssey benchmarks I'd like to see them if possible. I'm not sure I understand why SSDs would strain the CPU more though ? Certainly one game showing this behavior is also an outlier. The game turns pretty well on Zen2 from what I can gather.
Well in that case it's possible we would need ASICs too, but PC players also have wider pools of memory, larger clocks and more available power budget. If it was a big bottleneck wouldn't more threads fix the issue ? I've seen negative scaling to anything above 8 or 10 cores for now. If this is true then this is the next bottleneck after GPU power but it's probably a stretch to think the PS5 SSD will enable measurable differences ?

In a future if people start streaming endless amounts of assets, maybe the PS5 might be okay ? Unsure as of yet

EDIT: ok I found the Assassin's Creed problem, there is an underutilization of VRAM that leads to additional streaming from the drives, under 6GB on a 2080 Ti is odd. See https://youtu.be/chqQanHcvHk it takes the same aspect as the test case I mentioned before: limit all caching and memory capacities, you'll start to see bottlenecks from loading from higher density storage.
 
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nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
So, one possible bottleneck that I've read that isn't being talked about much is memory bandwidth. Those who are far more technically minded than me are concerned that 448GB/s may not be enough. It seems Sony decided on 14-Gbps GDDR6 chips for cost reasons. Memory and clock rate are the only things that can realistically change at this point. How late can Sony wait if they want to change out the 14-Gbps chip to more speedy 16-Gbps or 18-Gbps chips?

I really doubt that. Infact I think there's going to be situations where some studios may actually prefer the PS5's set up, especially if they're using more than 10GB for graphics or as NXGamer and others have alluded to, the PS5 may save system images or offload OS functions from memory (caching it aside) thanks to the ultra fast SSD, thus giving them access to an additional est 2.5GB of faster bandwidth video ram than the Series X (or est ~15.5GB total).

The principle software engineer of the PS5 has actually endorsed NXGamer's video, and stated that he brought up and touched on benefits that Digital Foundry did not, and I think it's possible the above may have been one of them.

But further to that, this gen the PS4's 8GB's of ram was 158% faster than the Xbox One's, whilst the PS5's ram is 34% faster than 6GB's of the Series X's, and 10GB of the Series X's ram is 25% faster than the PS5's, hence it's far less of a bandwidth difference this time around anyway.
 
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Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,066
It's not so much about throughput than it is about latency
Depends on the use case. I was specifically addressing refilling memory every frame, which is doable for game traversal "even" in teleportation scenarios as you will have the information its about to happen 100s of ms in advance.
Obviously in reality you'd prefer not to run so close to the edge that a single misplaced frame would cause dropped assets, but the point is we "can" handle even frames of completely changing data on these systems, which is a real game changer.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,862
That depends. If they start to releasing more games on PCs, the PS5's SSD won't be anywhere close to be the baseline.

That would render the compromises on the GPU far more baffling than they are already.
Day-and-date is not going to be the case for a while, and if they need to port it later on, it'll be an afterthought.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
That depends. If they start to releasing more games on PCs, the PS5's SSD won't be anywhere close to be the baseline.

That would render the compromises on the GPU far more baffling than they are already.
i think the compromise on the gpu was done because they know people who care about framerates and resolution will go to pc and buy their games on pc. i think the horizon reveal was timed that way for a reason. they are planting the seeds and hinting to their most hardcore that if they want to target the highest specs, pc is where they will find sony's best games.
 

Hellshy

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,172
i think the compromise on the gpu was done because they know people who care about framerates and resolution will go to pc and buy their games on pc. i think the horizon reveal was timed that way for a reason. they are planting the seeds and hinting to their most hardcore that if they want to target the highest specs, pc is where they will find sony's best games.

I really doubt that. Besides that ps5 games will most likely blows us all away, I really dont see any evidence that points to most of these games coming to PC. Until they make a clear statement we should expect most single player WWS titles to stay ps5 exclusives.
They didnt build a ps5 with all that custom ssd hardware not to show off what they can do it with.
 

Astandahl

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,011
I have one question. How MS will be able to develop games with the SSD in mind if they have to support the base Xbox One and Xbox One X ?