NX Gamer: PS5 Full Spec Analysis | A new generation is Born

Cyberclops

Member
Mar 15, 2019
523
First off he didn't really say much about their RAM... secondly, itsot a stretch at all.

Especially when you can potentially move up t 5.5GB/s. Andall they would need to be moving whenyou bring the OSto the front is like 1GB...

Imagine that the OS reserve is 1GB. That has UI elements for in-game menu and APIs for all supported IGM OS functions along with your services and lastly, a screenshot of sorts of your last Homescreen instance. Once you hit the home button,in the quarter second it takes to bring that home screen screenshot to the front end 1GB+ of the OS is load back into RAMmaking your current state active and navigatable while in the rest of it loads into RAM.

Its totally doable, Hugh I feel at least 2GB would be reserved, not even 1GB and definitely not only 500MB.
I don't quite understand what you're saying.
 

Dekim

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,342
I need not even watch the video. Let me guess. The saving grace is the SSD and it essentially closes the gap? Doesn't matter who is claiming it. The claim is still bullshit.
Embarrassing post. I feel bad for the mods having wade through all this console warring garbage flooding in the forum right now.
 

Pheonix

Member
Dec 14, 2018
2,586
St Kitts
I need not even watch the video. Let me guess. The saving grace is the SSD and it essentially closes the gap? Doesn't matter who is claiming it. The claim is still bullshit.
Why though? I mean, there isn't that big a gap to close to begin with... so why is it so hard to believe that something that's twice the performance of something else would make some sort of difference?

I'm really curious to hear what benefits people really think that the XSXbetter hardware bits would bring to the table and how they would present.

I mean... its currently beginning to sound like the XSX is like 50% more powerfully something.

Are people really thinking that variable frequencies is new thing?
Lol... goes to show how informed you are. Variable frequency as sony is doing it with the PS5, is a new thing.

Here's a shocker... even the XBX (and pretty much every other processor out there has a variable frequency. Not like how sony is doing it though.
 

ElNerdo

Member
Oct 22, 2018
540
Why though? I mean, there isn't that big a gap to close to begin with... so why is it so hard to believe that something that's twice the performance of something else would make some sort of difference?

I'm really curious to hear what benefits people really think that the XSXbetter hardware bits would bring to the table and how they would present.

I mean... its currently beginning to sound like the XSX is like 50% more powerfully something.
Shh, don't tell him the gap in performance between the two is actually smaller than the base/mid-gen consoles.
 

LebGuns

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,408
Yeah, this is a clearly one slanted video and makes countless claims with zero evidence or fact. Will stick to DF.
Have you even seen the DF direct on PS5? They go as far as claim that the SSD is so fast it could theoretically be used to offload some RAM functions. That’s an even bigger claim than the ones in this video.
 

reKon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,399
It seems that Cerny has made a calculated gamble that a slightly weaker GPU wont be so noticable if you can optimise the rest of your system enough and get every drop out of your silicon, thus saving you a few bucks and selling the console a bit cheaper perhaps. And he is envisioning that the SSD will be a bigger differentiating factor for next gen than marginal gains in resolution and frame rate. Whether his gamble pays off remains to be seen, but I imagine a lot of his thinking is revolving around building the best system that allows their first party developers to do amazing things and not worrying so much about not always having the best version of multipats. I think exclusives will be the real battleground for these consoles, especially now that MS is investing in first party in a big way.
He's made this determination by asking developers what they need to make the games they want. I think it's a good approach because this is what was done for the PS4 and resulted in fantastic games that was much more straightforward to program for compared the PS3.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,771
Have you even seen the DF direct on PS5? They go as far as claim that the SSD is so fast it could theoretically be used to offload some RAM functions. That’s an even bigger claim than the ones in this video.
Yeah that's a weird claim considering the RAM runs at 50-100 times faster than even this magic SSD. You could fill and empty it in couple of seconds, but that SSD is no match to actual RAM functions.
 

LebGuns

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,408
Yeah that's a weird claim considering the RAM runs at 50-100 times faster than even this magic SSD. You could fill and empty it in couple of seconds, but that SSD is no match to actual RAM functions.
I didn’t get it myself, but I’m no DF wizard or developer, so I’ll leave the technical dissections up to them 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Rice Eater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,131
I reeeeeeally can’t wait to see the games the PS5 allows from Sony’s first party studios.
We'll probably get some tech demos released as games just to show off the capabilities lol.

Maybe another open world superhero game where you can run of fly really fast and because of the SSD, you'll never be able to outrun the rendering into nothingness.
 

TKM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
227
Especially when you can potentially move up t 5.5GB/s. Andall they would need to be moving whenyou bring the OSto the front is like 1GB...

Imagine that the OS reserve is 1GB. That has UI elements for in-game menu and APIs for all supported IGM OS functions along with your services and lastly, a screenshot of sorts of your last Homescreen instance. Once you hit the home button,in the quarter second it takes to bring that home screen screenshot to the front end 1GB+ of the OS is load back into RAMmaking your current state active and navigatable while in the rest of it loads into RAM.

Its totally doable, Hugh I feel at least 2GB would be reserved, not even 1GB and definitely not only 500MB.
Makes sense. The SSD doesn't have to as fast as GDDR6 to offload some low priority OS functions. 5.5GB/sec is plenty fast, how fast was the DDR3 in PS4 Pro?

Inside PlayStation 4 Pro: How Sony made the first 4K games console

"On a standard model, if you're switching between an application, such as Netflix, and a game, Netflix is still in system memory even when you're playing the game. We use that architecture because it allows for a very quick swap between applications. Nothing needs to be loaded, it's already in memory."

Some might say it's an extravagant use of the PS4's fast GDDR5 memory, so the extra DDR3 memory in the Pro is used to store non-critical apps, opening up more RAM for game developers.
"On PS4 Pro, we do things differently, when you stop using Netflix, we move it to the slow, conventional gigabyte of DRAM. Using that strategy frees up almost one gigabyte of the eight gigabytes of GDDR5. We use 512MB of that freed up space for games, which is to say that games can use 5.5GB instead of the five and we use most of the rest to make the PS4 Pro interface - meaning what you see when you hit the PS button - at 4K rather than the 1080p it is today."

On PS4, apps/OS HAD to be in GDDR5 because the hard drive was too damn slow. For the Pro, Sony slapped on some cheap slow DDR3 for it. Perhaps with PS5, the SSD is fast enough to serve a similar function.
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,730
It seems that Cerny has made a calculated gamble that a slightly weaker GPU wont be so noticable if you can optimise the rest of your system enough and get every drop out of your silicon, thus saving you a few bucks and selling the console a bit cheaper perhaps. And he is envisioning that the SSD will be a bigger differentiating factor for next gen than marginal gains in resolution and frame rate. Whether his gamble pays off remains to be seen, but I imagine a lot of his thinking is revolving around building the best system that allows their first party developers to do amazing things and not worrying so much about not always having the best version of multipats. I think exclusives will be the real battleground for these consoles, especially now that MS is investing in first party in a big way.
Didn't he also make a calculated gamble with the PS4 and GDDR5?
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
3,304
At this point the main question I have is how each console handled next gen game development. What bottlenecks and limitations are there. What has been put in place to make game development easier and more efficient. And, once we have an idea of that, what are the overall advantages of each console and what things does each allow game developers to do that the other doesn’t.

I can’t even begin to answer these questions. The XSX has more horsepower and is a great piece of hardware, but the more I read and watch videos the more I’m appreciating Sony’s approach. I know people are getting very sensitive about labeling the XSX as a brute force machine because clearly it’s more than that, but it seems like the overall approach is just more power, better stuff, and in general safe. Very, very powerful, which is a gamble, but a fairly straightforward design.

Sony, on the other hand, seem to be trying to push forward some innovations in hardware that could lead to game design changing (likely limited to mostly first party though). Putting in multiple chips for specific tasks to make things run smoother. An SSD that is significantly faster than the XSX that allows for no loading and can alter how games design around that (and possibly having more RAM allocated). Even the audio chip - XSX has a custom chip, but Sony’s seem to be trying pushing things even further and who knows what standard it will set. The idea of individualistic sound settings that aren’t tied to specific sound systems is rad.

Of course at the end of the day it might be that there are limitations on the PS5 that the XSX simply doesn’t have because of its overall power. My best guess is the XSX will always have a slight edge in the graphics department but that the PS5 will surprise people with ways in which it is better. Will I be able to tell? Heck no! But it is interesting to listen to the knowledgeable people discuss this.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,744
Just as an aside 5 GB/s is not enough for an OS. You’d be getting hitched every time an OS function swaps into main memory.

DDR3’s slowest speed is about 1 GB/s faster.
 

RoninStrife

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,123
Im very very impressed by the PS5... you have that SSD... that at this point needs no introduction, the thing basically has testimonials from literal devs that swear it's a gamechanger for next gen. Then we have all those co-processors and custom chips on board. Very impressed Sony didn't just throw more horsepower at their problems, they created a smart console thats efficient and does some efficient backend thinking making devs lives easier. I agree with Andrea Pessino when he says a year from now, some are going to feel very stupid arguing about TFlops because they will realize why Sony did what they did. And... if you watch the Cerny presentation again... look at Cerny's reaction when he says "we have a responsibility to be cost effective " or something along those lines... they will undercut the Series X in price. And the Series X will be $500-$600 dollars.

What Sony designed would be an absolute steal at $400-$500
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,590
At this point the main question I have is how each console handled next gen game development. What bottlenecks and limitations are there. What has been put in place to make game development easier and more efficient. And, once we have an idea of that, what are the overall advantages of each console and what things does each allow game developers to do that the other doesn’t.

I can’t even begin to answer these questions. The XSX has more horsepower and is a great piece of hardware, but the more I read and watch videos the more I’m appreciating Sony’s approach. I know people are getting very sensitive about labeling the XSX as a brute force machine because clearly it’s more than that, but it seems like the overall approach is just more power, better stuff, and in general safe. Very, very powerful, which is a gamble, but a fairly straightforward design.

Sony, on the other hand, seem to be trying to push forward some innovations in hardware that could lead to game design changing (likely limited to mostly first party though). Putting in multiple chips for specific tasks to make things run smoother. An SSD that is significantly faster than the XSX that allows for no loading and can alter how games design around that (and possibly having more RAM allocated). Even the audio chip - XSX has a custom chip, but Sony’s seem to be trying pushing things even further and who knows what standard it will set. The idea of individualistic sound settings that aren’t tied to specific sound systems is rad.

Of course at the end of the day it might be that there are limitations on the PS5 that the XSX simply doesn’t have because of its overall power. My best guess is the XSX will always have a slight edge in the graphics department but that the PS5 will surprise people with ways in which it is better. Will I be able to tell? Heck no! But it is interesting to listen to the knowledgeable people discuss this.
Very good post. More reflective of the reality of the situation than trying to directly compare marketing numbers alone.
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,730
Actually he did

Yeah Cerny knew what he was doing with those suits in the room.

But I meant this as well...


"Sony had bet that GDDR5 manufacturing would have been smooth enough by the time the PS4’s release that memory modules large enough to be 8GB on the machine would be possible."

"The Xbox One however takes a different design. Due to Microsoft designing the system to use memory intensive applications (all of those media capabilities don’t come cheap) they needed 8GB of RAM. They decided to play it safe and go with 8GB of DDR3. "
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,744
With compression, were talking typical throughput of 8 to 9 gb/s. That's plenty fast enough.
No, we’re not. Those kind of speeds will be common with art assets but not the OS itself. It’d have to be decompressing and recompressing almost constantly which would limit kraken’s utility utility for you know the game assets. Not to mention how often it’d be writing / rewriting on the SSD.

the most they’ll do is use the SSD for quick resume leaving that segment of memory free.
 
Last edited:

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
9,289
His theory about keeping the OS in the SSD and giving devs 15.5GB of GDDR6 sounds very interesting. I am not sure it will work like that in practice though. Probably more memory will be allocated for OS than .5GB.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,590
No, we’re not. Those kind of speeds will be common with art assets but not the OS itself. It’d have to be decompressing and recompressing almost constantly which would limit kraken’s utility utility for you know the game assets. Not to mention how often it’d be writing / rewriting on the SSD.
Look...I don't think the reserve for the OS will only be 500 MB. However 1 to 1.5 gb is not at all unrealistic in this scenario.
 

btags

Member
Oct 26, 2017
832
Rochester NY
Nice analysis. I was already wondering if the PS5 could offload the OS to the SSD and that might be the case.

16GB of RAM for games would be great.
I am just about to watch, but doesn't this not make any sense at all because then you would not be able to receive any notifications, trophies, messages, etc. If the os was not in ram?
 

RoninStrife

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,123
His theory about keeping the OS in the SSD and giving devs 15.5GB of GDDR6 sounds very interesting. I am not sure it will work like that in practice though. Probably more memory will be allocated for OS than .5GB.
I think theres things Cerny hasn't stated yet. What if theres a seperate pool just for OS, that wasn't mentioned in the stream? But I think.. the SSD is so fast, it's entirely possible their using the SSD for the OS also. I honestly think this is why the SSD number may be a bit odd.. maybe Cerny is giving us just the balance of the SSD gigs after OS and an overhead for them using it for a multitude of other things.
 

Coda

Member
Nov 17, 2019
672
With compression, were talking typical throughput of 8 to 9 gb/s. That's plenty fast enough.
Is it? Ram is like 50x faster plus I feel like they would have mentioned an obvious advantage on the spec sheet or during the presentation.

Something I haven't seen mentioned is the life expectancy of the SSD. They can't really use it as a be all end all solution because it's going to deteriorate way faster than usual.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
9,289
I think theres things Cerny hasn't stated yet. What if theres a seperate pool just for OS, that wasn't mentioned in the stream? But I think.. the SSD is so fast, it's entirely possible their using the SSD for the OS also. I honestly think this is why the SSD number may be a bit odd.. maybe Cerny is giving us just the balance of the SSD gigs after OS and an overhead for them using it for a multitude of other things.
No, cerny's words on the SSD size heavily implies it is the real size, not the leftover size excluding Ram.
 

boredandlazy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
422
I got the strong impression that the SSD is 825GB as that's the size that interfaces optimally with the 12 channels from the IO controller. It isn't some arbitrary value left after an OS install but a key hardware requirement.
 

Loudninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,850
I got the strong impression that the SSD is 825GB as that's the size that interfaces optimally with the 12 channels from the IO controller. It isn't some arbitrary value left after an OS install but a key hardware requirement.
Delivering two orders of magnitude improvement in performance required a lot of custom hardware to seamlessly marry the SSD to the main processor. A custom flash marries up to the SSD modules via a 12 channel interface, delivering the required 5.5GB/s of performance with a total of 825GB of storage. This may sound like a strange choice for storage size when considering that consumer SSDs offer 512GB, 1TB or more of capacity, but Sony's solution is proprietary, 825GB is most optimal match for the 12-channel interface and there are other advantages too. In short, Sony had more freedom to adapt its design: "We can look at the available NAND flash parts and construct something with optimal price performance. Someone constructing an M.2 drive presumably does not have that freedom, it would be difficult to market and sell if it were not one of those standard sizes," Mark Cerny says.
 

Zedark

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,662
The Netherlands
I don't really follow the logic behind the 15.5 GB RAM discussion. I understand why he would say you could offload the OS to memory, but why would that not be possible on XSX? It would just take 2.3x as long, so about 1 second instead of 0.5, right?
 

Rocket Man

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,794
He spent all of his Xsx deep dive downplaying teraflops.

Hardly...he literally gave concrete examples of why teraflops are just one parameter or variable of the entire balance of system. Something that most people still seem to not understand. Teraflop number is not the be all end all, just like how SSD speed isn't either. The final performance you get depends on how the entire system is set up and how the different components interact with each other.
 

DukeBlueBall

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,976
Seattle, WA
Hardly...he literally gave concrete examples of why teraflops are just one parameter or variable of the entire balance of system. Something that most people still seem to not understand. Teraflop number is not the be all end all, just like how SSD speed isn't either. The final performance you get depends on how the entire system is set up and how the different components interact with each other.
I'll gave you that, but a deep dive only explaining teraflops (rehash of an old video), without actually talking about any of the console's features is not a deep dive.

Hope he makes a proper one in the future.
 

Desodeset

Member
May 31, 2019
141
His theory about keeping the OS in the SSD and giving devs 15.5GB of GDDR6 sounds very interesting. I am not sure it will work like that in practice though. Probably more memory will be allocated for OS than .5GB.
Didn't PS4 Pro use additional DDR3 Ram for some tasks?

It's not cost friendly, but they may use 1-2gb DDR4 do help OS works, while game utilize more GDDR6 Memory.
 

Marble

Member
Nov 27, 2017
3,397
While that's true we don't know how they might approach it.

You could have a dev design and develop a game exclusively for XSX and then have a second dev port it to other systems. MS have done similar things before.
You still have to take in account a 1TF machine with a HDD as a baseline. Can't do huge open worlds with insane draw distances with no loading screens through wich you travel at enormous speeds without your game completely falling apart.
 

Marble

Member
Nov 27, 2017
3,397
I need not even watch the video. Let me guess. The saving grace is the SSD and it essentially closes the gap? Doesn't matter who is claiming it. The claim is still bullshit.
What gap do yo refer to exactly? The minor (20%) GPU gap or the 125% IO speed gap?

When will people understand the biggest difference between these to machines is, BY FAR, the SSD?